CP3 Rumored Trade

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah Jamal Murray is 23 yeah don’t really get the hate.

I don't see the hate you're talking about. If you want to point to his best games and base your expectations on that, fine. It just depends whether you're rating him for what he's done or for what he's shown he might be capable of doing in the future. Looking at his overall performance to date though I don't see how calling him barely a top 40 player is hate.

 

[Mainstreet]

Those games show the level he is capable of getting to when it's completely clicking for him, but the point of pointing out what he did in the other games is that he doesn't find an elite level of play on a consistent basis. Yeah when he is hot he can light it up about as well as anyone, but those types of games are few and far between for Murray at this point of his career.

The playoffs is the best time for a player to perform. Maybe his career is just starting to take off.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I don't see the hate you're talking about. If you want to point to his best games and base your expectations on that, fine. It just depends whether you're rating him for what he's done or for what he's shown he might be capable of doing in the future. Looking at his overall performance to date though I don't see how calling him barely a top 40 player is hate.

This. Based on his overall play to date he likely is not as good as #21, but clearly he has a potential ceiling even better than #21.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The playoffs is the best time for a player to perform. Maybe his career is just starting to take off.

Maybe, maybe not. That being said he was still very inconsistent in those playoffs that we are talking about. He had a handful of good to very good games out of 19 games.

Those handful of games obviously show that he has a high ceiling and nobody is questioning that, but it will take more consistency for him to earn being in the discussion of being one of the absolute best players in the league.

 

[Mainstreet]

Maybe, maybe not. That being said he was still very inconsistent in those playoffs that we are talking about. He had a handful of good to very good games out of 19 games.

Those handful of games obviously show that he has a high ceiling and nobody is questioning that, but it will take more consistency for him to earn being in the discussion of being one of the absolute best players in the league.

I bet some of those players ranked ahead of him spent the playoffs at home.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I bet some of those players ranked ahead of him spent the playoffs at home.

Why does that matter? It's not like Murray carried his team to the playoffs. The Nuggets are a talented team and they have one of the best players in the league in Jokic. I suspect there are a lot of guards that could have played in Murray's place and they still probably would have made the playoffs. That's not to say that there are exactly a lot of guards in the league that could have replaced his production in the playoffs or especially that could have replicated that 3 game stretch.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Those games show the level he is capable of getting to when it's completely clicking for him, but the point of pointing out what he did in the other games is that he doesn't find an elite level of play on a consistent basis. Yeah when he is hot he can light it up about as well as anyone, but those types of games are few and far between for Murray at this point of his career.

Uh, who in the nba racks up 50 point games “consistently?” Or even, I dunno, three times in a playoff series?

agree with cheese, making excuses why superstar play should be disregarded seems dumb to me.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Uh, who in the nba racks up 50 point games “consistently?” Or even, I dunno, three times in a playoff series?

agree with cheese, making excuses why superstar play should be disregarded seems dumb to me.

Never suggested that he needs to consistently score 50. I am talking about dropping 40-50 in one game and then 12 and 14 in the next two.

That is the scoring inconsistently that I am referring to.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Never suggested that he needs to consistently score 50. I am talking about dropping 40-50 in one game and then 12 and 14 in the next two.

That is the scoring inconsistently that I am referring to.

I'm not sure why (game plan, injury, illness or whatever) but Murray failed to score 15 points in 26 of his 78 games this year (counting playoffs). For comparison sake, Booker has been held under 15 points 38 times total since his rookie season (266 games).

 

[Mainstreet]

Maybe, maybe not. That being said he was still very inconsistent in those playoffs that we are talking about. He had a handful of good to very good games out of 19 games.

Those handful of games obviously show that he has a high ceiling and nobody is questioning that, but it will take more consistency for him to earn being in the discussion of being one of the absolute best players in the league.

If you don't want to give Murray the credit he deserves that's fine but he was the second best player on a Nuggets team that took out the Jazz and Clippers in the 2020 playoffs.

 

[Finito]

I don't see the hate you're talking about. If you want to point to his best games and base your expectations on that, fine. It just depends whether you're rating him for what he's done or for what he's shown he might be capable of doing in the future. Looking at his overall performance to date though I don't see how calling him barely a top 40 player is hate.

Two years ago they won 54 games and made it to the second round. He averaged 26 in the playoffs this year making in to the conference finals

You keep pointing to his points. Nobody views him as a scorer or in the same way people look at Booker.

I look at him as a complete floor general at PG. there is nothing he does bad. Your so so forgetting how young he is. He’s younger than Booker he’s just getting started.

I see guys on that list who flat out crap themselves when the pressure is on. I’d rather take the guy who says get on my back I’m not gonna let us lose. You can’t measure that mentality

 

[AzStevenCal]

If you don't want to give Murray the credit he deserves that's fine but he was the second best player on a Nuggets team that took out the Jazz and Clippers in the 2020 playoffs.

So who is not giving him the credit he deserves? You're right, he was clearly the second best player on that Nuggets team during the playoffs and offensively you could argue he was their best player. But what does that mean? Does that mean you throw out all the mediocre games he has? And keep in mind he's had an unusually high number of mediocre games (every year).

It seems to me that when he faces off against the Donovan Mitchells or Devin Bookers of the league he's one of the greatest players in the NBA. But when he faces off against the rest of the league, he becomes an above average player. That's why he ends up with a PER of 17.7 (which ranks him 75th on Hollinger's list) for the past season.

 

[Mainstreet]

So who is not giving him the credit he deserves? You're right, he was clearly the second best player on that Nuggets team during the playoffs and offensively you could argue he was their best player. But what does that mean? Does that mean you throw out all the mediocre games he has? And keep in mind he's had an unusually high number of mediocre games (every year).

It seems to me that when he faces off against the Donovan Mitchells or Devin Bookers of the league he's one of the greatest players in the NBA. But when he faces off against the rest of the league, he becomes an above average player. That's why he ends up with a PER of 17.7 (which ranks him 75th on Hollinger's list) for the past season.

In response to your first question, I don't think you are giving Murray the credit he deserves.

In regard to your second question, I think it means against the best teams, Jokic and Murray carry the Nuggets. If Murray rises to the occasion against the best players, it tells a lot about the player. On other nights the Nuggets may not need Murray to carry as much of the load. The Nuggets were a balanced team last season.

Additionally, Jokic only averaged 19.9 points per game last season. If you are going to use scoring to evaluate a player, you are going to miss some good ones.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Two years ago they won 54 games and made it to the second round. He averaged 26 in the playoffs this year making in to the conference finals

You keep pointing to his points. Nobody views him as a scorer or in the same way people look at Booker.

I look at him as a complete floor general at PG. there is nothing he does bad. Your so so forgetting how young he is. He’s younger than Booker he’s just getting started.

I see guys on that list who flat out crap themselves when the pressure is on. I’d rather take the guy who says get on my back I’m not gonna let us lose. You can’t measure that mentality

How am I forgetting "how young he is"? We aren't talking about what he can become, are we? If we are, several of us have said repeatedly that he has the potential to become a special player. But to anoint him as one of the best already, I'm sorry but his game just hasn't measured up to that SO FAR.

Booker, for example, has had a much stronger start to his career (and they are basically the same age, only 50 days separates them) and until his bubble stretch a lot of people were suggesting he was no better than the 3rd best player on a decent team.

Murray's PER this past season indicates he's barely a top 80 player. His playoff performance this past season suggests he's a top 10 player. I'd love to have him in the backcourt with Booker long term but I just don't believe he's proven himself as a superstar, to this point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

How am I forgetting "how young he is"? We aren't talking about what he can become, are we? If we are, several of us have said repeatedly that he has the potential to become a special player. But to anoint him as one of the best already, I'm sorry but his game just hasn't measured up to that SO FAR.

Booker, for example, has had a much stronger start to his career (and they are basically the same age, only 50 days separates them) and until his bubble stretch a lot of people were suggesting he was no better than the 3rd best player on a decent team.

Murray's PER this past season indicates he's barely a top 80 player. His playoff performance this past season suggests he's a top 10 player. I'd love to have him in the backcourt with Booker long term but I just don't believe he's proven himself as a superstar, to this point.

Except Murray has done it on a very good team and in the playoffs whereas book has only done it on a trash team and not made playoffs. I understand you can only play within the confines of what’s around you, but that should be taken into account when just comparing stats.

 

[AzStevenCal]

.

Except Murray has done it on a very good team and in the playoffs whereas book has only done it on a trash team and not made playoffs. I understand you can only play within the confines of what’s around you, but that should be taken into account when just comparing stats.

I don't know how to adjust for something like that especially given that Booker had to do it with nothing around him, often playing out of position, and with defenses focused almost entirely on him. But put that aside, put Booker aside, and glance through Murray's game logs for his career.

I called him a top 20 player at the start of this conversation until someone called my attention to the fact I hadn't looked close enough at his history. Having done so now, I just don't see how anyone could say he's been a top 5, top 10 or top 20 player so far, excellent 2020 playoffs notwithstanding.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Except Murray has done it on a very good team and in the playoffs whereas book has only done it on a trash team and not made playoffs. I understand you can only play within the confines of what’s around you, but that should be taken into account when just comparing stats.

Which might make Booker's accomplishments even more remarkable. Defenses have doubled teamed him constantly and he still put up those numbers. Various ways of looking at this.

This year should be telling. Book has a team around him now.

 

[Mainstreet]

If some are using points scored and PER to establish player rankings, doesn't this make a case for Bradley Beal to be ranked higher.

Without much help last season he averaged 30.5 points and a PER of 23.22.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If some are using points scored and PER to establish player rankings, doesn't this make a case for Bradley Beal to be ranked higher.

Without much help last season he averaged 30.5 points and a PER of 23.22.

Ranking a full time player by PER is pretty accurate although it can understate or overstate a players value if they fall near either extreme of the defender spectrum. And yes, Beal is underrated. Players on bad teams tend to get ignored or undervalued. IMO Beal is what Murray might become.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ranking a full time player by PER is pretty accurate although it can understate or overstate a players value if they fall near either extreme of the defender spectrum. And yes, Beal is underrated. Players on bad teams tend to get ignored or undervalued. IMO Beal is what Murray might become.

Actually I suggested in January that Beal might be a player the Suns might want to pair with Booker but I didn't get a lot of support.

I'm guessing most posters think he is overrated.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Actually I suggested in January that Beal might be a player the Suns might want to pair with Booker but I didn't get a lot of support.

I'm guessing most posters think he is overrated.

I think people just didn't see it as a good fit. Neither are particularly good defenders (to put it lightly) and both are SGs that were being forced to facilitate due to lack of quality PGs.

It's not so much that people thought Beal wasn't good, but that they would rather see Booker paired with a legit PG than another facilitating SG.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think people just didn't see it as a good fit. Neither are particularly good defenders (to put it lightly) and both are SGs that were being forced to facilitate due to lack of quality PGs.

It's not so much that people thought Beal wasn't good, but that they would rather see Booker paired with a legit PG than another facilitating SG.

I think the reason either of them occasionally struggled as lead guard had more to do with the lack of talent around them than anything else. I'd have loved to pair those two.

Yes, they'd be suspect defensively but they'd be by far the best offensive guard duo in the game (or maybe second best, if/when Klay and Steph are both healthy). In today's NBA, I think Beal/Booker makes a lot more sense than a "legit PG" paired with either Beal or Booker unless you get a generational traditional PG such as a young Chris Paul or Steve Nash.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think people just didn't see it as a good fit. Neither are particularly good defenders (to put it lightly) and both are SGs that were being forced to facilitate due to lack of quality PGs.

It's not so much that people thought Beal wasn't good, but that they would rather see Booker paired with a legit PG than another facilitating SG.

It's hard to find two stars to pair together yet alone young ones. Most stars have some flaws. Sometimes you have to get what is available, like the Suns did with an older Chris Paul.

Beal and Booker would have been dynamic together in both can shoot, score and distribute. Teams wouldn't have been able to double on Booker. I wasn't locked on this pairing but I thought it would work.

Personally I think we need to get away from strict position labels. Describing players as guards, wings (forwards) and a center (big man) might better describe today's NBA.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Nor do I understand taking away three super superstar performances in MAX playoff pressure to try and say he wasn’t great.

I’ve always thought arguments that take away a players best performances over a period to try and make a point that he’s not that great were pretty stupid.

I wasn’t taking those away. Without his elite playoff performances he’s top40ish maybe. Obviously consistency at a high level is important for top players. Murray has a wide performance distribution which is both a blessing and a curse.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's hard to find two stars to pair together yet alone young ones. Most stars have some flaws. Sometimes you have to get what is available, like the Suns did with an older Chris Paul.

Beal and Booker would have been dynamic together in both can shoot, score and distribute. Teams wouldn't have been able to double on Booker. I wasn't locked on this pairing but I thought it would work.

Personally I think we need to get away from strict position labels. Describing players as guards, wings (forwards) and a center (big man) might better describe today's NBA.

Not saying I would be against it. I am simply suggesting that given the choice I would rather pair Booker with a good PG than Beal.