Crap Bowl 2003 - Suns vs. Clippers
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Chaplin
Better off silent
After the season is a different story--but for this season, right now, we're kinda "stuck" with him, if you wanna call it that. IMO, Shawn will easily be our best bet to make a change, as I am totally 100% against trading Marbury or Amare (and even to a lesser extent Zarko and Leandro).
I agree with that. Marion seems like the expendable/tradable one. If it can be done at the end of the season thats fine because its not like I'm in a rush to get rid of him....I just dont want his stock to drop too much. I'm glad he's had a couple decent games recently.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Actually he can be traded.
His BYC status makes it difficult but not impossible.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Re: More Pavel
Anyway Podkolzine had a good reason for withdrawing his name from 2003 Draft.
Reportedly neither of the lottery teams gave him a guarantee of picking of him.
I tend to believe that was the reason of Podkolzin's decisiion.
As slinslin pointed out he was nobody in Europe (and he still is) until LAC's scout discovered him.
Then he had ONE nice workout.
I'm almost sure that a 18-year old russian would have taken a 5-10 mil./3 year offer, the problem was that nobody would have offered that for him.
Moreover maybe there was a chance that he will fall out of the 1st round ala Lampe.(Yes, I know Lampe had a buy-out but at least he was healthy.)
Since Podkolzine didn't show any improvement his value probably dropped so it's not sure at all that he will be a lottery pick, IMO.
Anyway Podkolzine had a good reason for withdrawing his name from 2003 Draft.
Reportedly neither of the lottery teams gave him a guarantee of picking of him.
I tend to believe that was the reason of Podkolzin's decisiion.
As slinslin pointed out he was nobody in Europe (and he still is) until LAC's scout discovered him.
Then he had ONE nice workout.
I'm almost sure that a 18-year old russian would have taken a 5-10 mil./3 year offer, the problem was that nobody would have offered that for him.
Moreover maybe there was a chance that he will fall out of the 1st round ala Lampe.(Yes, I know Lampe had a buy-out but at least he was healthy.)
Since Podkolzine didn't show any improvement his value probably dropped so it's not sure at all that he will be a lottery pick, IMO.
cly2tw
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slinslin,
I think the insider trade proposal with the Blazers'd leave us with Anderson and Davis, if we chose not to resign Wallace. I doubt we'd have enough cap for Kobe without further maneuver. But we could get a team like Utah involved to trade Marion and Googs away for Rasheed and Woods, with Utah sending Clark to Blazers and receiving Googs and other compensation. If we have a commitment from Kobe or McGrady, we might be able to pay the new expansion enough (picks and cash) for them to take Penny's contract. Then, we'd be under cap enough, I think.
I think the insider trade proposal with the Blazers'd leave us with Anderson and Davis, if we chose not to resign Wallace. I doubt we'd have enough cap for Kobe without further maneuver. But we could get a team like Utah involved to trade Marion and Googs away for Rasheed and Woods, with Utah sending Clark to Blazers and receiving Googs and other compensation. If we have a commitment from Kobe or McGrady, we might be able to pay the new expansion enough (picks and cash) for them to take Penny's contract. Then, we'd be under cap enough, I think.
thegrahamcrackr
Registered User
The Blazer/Suns trade Insider claimed to work even with Marion's BYC is:
Penny, Googs, Marion, Trybanski
fot
Wallace, Anderson, Woods, Davis
There might have been a pick in there somewhere.
About Pavel, of course you work him out. However I don't think you draft him if you are in the the top 3. Ankle problems are chronic. When you have them, especially at 18, you have them forever (especially when you are that huge).
Hill was qustionable with Ankle problems, and he ways no where near Pavel. With that high of a lottery pick, you simply do not pass on Okafor for Pavel unless you are 200% sure that Pavel is fine. Okafor is scouted so much more than Pavel, and he gets feedback on his game from NBA scouts. He is actually displaying a good offensive game this season I think.
Pavel on the other hand is so buried, Lara Croft wouldn't be able to find him.
Penny, Googs, Marion, Trybanski
fot
Wallace, Anderson, Woods, Davis
There might have been a pick in there somewhere.
About Pavel, of course you work him out. However I don't think you draft him if you are in the the top 3. Ankle problems are chronic. When you have them, especially at 18, you have them forever (especially when you are that huge).
Hill was qustionable with Ankle problems, and he ways no where near Pavel. With that high of a lottery pick, you simply do not pass on Okafor for Pavel unless you are 200% sure that Pavel is fine. Okafor is scouted so much more than Pavel, and he gets feedback on his game from NBA scouts. He is actually displaying a good offensive game this season I think.
Pavel on the other hand is so buried, Lara Croft wouldn't be able to find him.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Remind me why Portland would even consider Penny Hardaway in trade?
cly2tw
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coz' Anderson's contract is equally bad, smaller size but longer
Billythekid
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I don't think trading Marion is a good idea. Short term, it might seem attractive, but he's a very unique player which we'll benfit greatly from in the future.
How many small forwards avg almost 20 and 10. He's been good in the past, yes he's been up and down this season, but come on! The entire team has suffered through inconsistancy.
I'm not ready to give up on Marion. He's been great for this team and hopefully will be a big part of the future when more pieces are added.
How many small forwards avg almost 20 and 10. He's been good in the past, yes he's been up and down this season, but come on! The entire team has suffered through inconsistancy.
I'm not ready to give up on Marion. He's been great for this team and hopefully will be a big part of the future when more pieces are added.
Okay guys, I'm going to start a new thread about the 2004 draft and possible trades because we have 2-3 conversations going in this one. Let's stick to this current team in last night's game in this one. Thanks.
Slin, I'm actually hoping that we will see Scott Williams/Jake Voskuhl at power forward earlier and more often until the regular power forwards returned from injury. The team seemed to play better with the bigger frontcourt. Unfortunately that might be difficult to pull off against in four of the next five games (Sacramento, Portland, LA Lakers, and Houston).
I've read several places that D'Antoni likes to put his best players on the floor together. I wonder if that means we might see some lineups with Zarko and small forward and Shawn Marion at shooting guard when Zarko returns. I'm not sold at it is necessarily a solution to any of the Suns problems, but it would be interesting to see.
Joe Mama
Slin, I'm actually hoping that we will see Scott Williams/Jake Voskuhl at power forward earlier and more often until the regular power forwards returned from injury. The team seemed to play better with the bigger frontcourt. Unfortunately that might be difficult to pull off against in four of the next five games (Sacramento, Portland, LA Lakers, and Houston).
I've read several places that D'Antoni likes to put his best players on the floor together. I wonder if that means we might see some lineups with Zarko and small forward and Shawn Marion at shooting guard when Zarko returns. I'm not sold at it is necessarily a solution to any of the Suns problems, but it would be interesting to see.
Joe Mama
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
Danny Ainge loves Shawn Marion, maybe he would be stupid enough to trade Pierce in a package.
Who knows, it is tough to say how much value Marion has.
If you ask Portland fans they would trade Wallace, McInnis, Woods for Marion and Penny in a heartbeat.
That would give the Suns Wallace and Googs with expiring contracts next offseason.
Who knows, it is tough to say how much value Marion has.
If you ask Portland fans they would trade Wallace, McInnis, Woods for Marion and Penny in a heartbeat.
That would give the Suns Wallace and Googs with expiring contracts next offseason.
Chaplin
Better off silent
At least Saddam being captured takes the sting away from this loss. 
The Boston Celtics have made some horrible trades over the last couple of years, but I don't think even they would be stupid enough to trade Paul Pierce for Shawn Marion.
Even though Portland fans would make that trade their management would not. They are trying to cut costs and taking Marion and Hardaway off the Suns fans is a huge step in the opposite direction. Surely Portland will get much better and financially responsible offers for Wallace in the upcoming months.
Joe Mama
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Guys, I'm as frustrated as any of you, but let's look at this cureent situation and try to be reasonable- We have two very important players out. We have no depth and we just made a coaching change, so of course we are going to continue getting our butts kicked untill Z and Amare come back.
I think we will see some changes in the next few games- mainly- Googs, Voskhul and/ or Williams on PF as opposed to Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion.
Go Suns!
I think we will see some changes in the next few games- mainly- Googs, Voskhul and/ or Williams on PF as opposed to Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion.
Go Suns!
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Originally posted by Chaplin
At least Saddam being captured takes the sting away from this loss.
Now they have to go after public enemy number 2: Shawn Marion. Right?
Since the first game of last year's playoffs, to today, Marion has been pretty up and down, with seemingly more down, than up, but i don't think we should trade him. We don't need Marion to be our first, or really even second, option. As a 3rd offensive weapon, the guy is pretty damn good, and once googs' and hardaway's contract come off the cap, when Amare is at his peak, this team is going to be amazing.
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One thing that does piss me off, though, is that when Corey Magette came into the league, he was not very good at all. All he could do was dunk the ball on fast breaks, kind of like Marion. He had no skills getting through traffic to the basket in a half court set. Now look at him. It's like night and day because he worked to get stronger, to become a better ball-handler, and to develop his basketball instincts.
From what I can see, Marion has not. Over the years, he's gotten better at the things he was always decent at - shooting, free throws, rebounding... and he has always been an amazing athlete. However, the things he wasn't very good at his rookie season, such as taking the ball to the basket, finishing in traffic, getting to the free throw line, becoming stronger, dribbling like a guard - he's really no better at those aspects than he was 4 years ago when he came into this league. I'm not saying Magette is a better basketball player than Marion, but Marion had somewhat of a head start. I am saying, however, that Magette has progressed much more than Shawn, and you have to wonder why.
From what I can see, Marion has not. Over the years, he's gotten better at the things he was always decent at - shooting, free throws, rebounding... and he has always been an amazing athlete. However, the things he wasn't very good at his rookie season, such as taking the ball to the basket, finishing in traffic, getting to the free throw line, becoming stronger, dribbling like a guard - he's really no better at those aspects than he was 4 years ago when he came into this league. I'm not saying Magette is a better basketball player than Marion, but Marion had somewhat of a head start. I am saying, however, that Magette has progressed much more than Shawn, and you have to wonder why.
Originally posted by SirStefan32
Guys, I'm as frustrated as any of you, but let's look at this cureent situation and try to be reasonable- We have two very important players out. We have no depth and we just made a coaching change, so of course we are going to continue getting our butts kicked untill Z and Amare come back.
Go Suns!
Oh please...I only wish we could lay this at the doorstep of Amare and Zarko. Yes they play a part but we still had serious issues before they went down. The Jazz in particular made us look like little school boys out there. Suns dont play like a team and thats a major part of this.
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Why would the Suns players want to play as a team? Penny goes out there, gets 7 assists in 28 minutes and gets taken out for the entire fourth quarter for Casey Jacobsen, while Marion, Johnson, all continue to hoist up ill-advised shots.
There's too much competition on this team. Hardaway vs. Johnson, Jacobsen vs. Hardaway or JJ, Marbury vs. the team, Marion vs. reality (he actually said that before his last 4 games, he was playing very well, just not scoring as much...), the center rotation vs. each other. I don't mean "competition" in the sense that each player is trying to take the other player's spot, but everyone is always competing for playing time, and so far, nobody has won out. Every night, the lineup changes, there's no way of getting any consistency.
arthurracoon
The Cardinal Smiles
I agree
Chaz
observationist
Well I just got done watching this game and the Clippers killed us on the boards (big suprise).
The bigger lineup helped but it was a little to late and they wore out at the end I think. This month will not be pretty. So far I like the adjustments D'Antoni is making. I guess I should say I like that D'Antoni is trying to make adjustments.
Suns made a run and cut it to nine I think, Richardson and Magette came back in and I was thinking "don't leave Richardson open". What happens?, Richardson left wide open for a three.
The rebounding is horrible and I don't think we can assume Amare is the magic bullet. They need to get this fixed now even though it will cost us running opportunities. You can't run if you don't have the ball.
I like JJ taking it to the basket. I wish Marion would use his speed to get to the hoop and earn some trips to the line.
The bigger lineup helped but it was a little to late and they wore out at the end I think. This month will not be pretty. So far I like the adjustments D'Antoni is making. I guess I should say I like that D'Antoni is trying to make adjustments.
Suns made a run and cut it to nine I think, Richardson and Magette came back in and I was thinking "don't leave Richardson open". What happens?, Richardson left wide open for a three.
The rebounding is horrible and I don't think we can assume Amare is the magic bullet. They need to get this fixed now even though it will cost us running opportunities. You can't run if you don't have the ball.
I like JJ taking it to the basket. I wish Marion would use his speed to get to the hoop and earn some trips to the line.
cly2tw
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Maggette's 'failure' earlier is now kinda 'blessing in disguise'. So was it for Ron Artest. If you don't get minutes the way you play, then you have to change your game for the better like in case of Jacobson. In contrast, Marion got success too early. He didn't need to enhance his game much to get recognized and rewarded with big contracts, based more or less on his physical talent alone. I was really surprised that Suns gave him unconditional max. extension, while a more smooth player like Lewis got 'only' a conditional one.
