Deja Vu all over again?

[Red Fury]

Last year the Cards passed on Leftwich and Suggs and picked up a couple of guys in the first round that look like they wont be ready to contribute any time soon. To address the pass rush problem that had to go the FA route because their 1st rounder was terrible.

This year it looks like they will have the chance to draft another "franchise" QB. Hopefully they wont make the same mistake that they made last year.

In hindsight, if the Cards had taken Leftwich last year they would be in the position to really add to their team, maybe even going defense in round one this year.

McCown is not the answer, and no one outside of the Cardinals front office thinks that he is. The Cards have to go QB in the first round.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by Red Fury
Last year the Cards passed on Leftwich and Suggs and picked up a couple of guys in the first round that look like they wont be ready to contribute any time soon. To address the pass rush problem that had to go the FA route because their 1st rounder was terrible.

This year it looks like they will have the chance to draft another "franchise" QB. Hopefully they wont make the same mistake that they made last year.

In hindsight, if the Cards had taken Leftwich last year they would be in the position to really add to their team, maybe even going defense in round one this year.

McCown is not the answer, and no one outside of the Cardinals front office thinks that he is. The Cards have to go QB in the first round.

I dont believe the front office even thinks he is. Graves made it clear last year that McCown seemed nervous out there and in turn that made him nervous.

There were also reports that Graves and M.Bidwill didnt like Greens comments that he wasnt drafting a QB in the 1st round, b/c they both thought that should still be an option.

 

[EnglishCardinal]

is there another way to have deja vu ?

other than that though i agree we must go Ben or Eli is they are there !

Eli to Boldin for the next 10 years, i love it !

 

[Tangodnzr]

Re: Re: Deja Vu all over again?

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
I dont believe the front office even thinks he is. Graves made it clear last year that McCown seemed nervous out there and in turn that made him nervous.

There were also reports that Graves and M.Bidwill didnt like Greens comments that he wasnt drafting a QB in the 1st round, b/c they both thought that should still be an option.

What reports? by whom? when ? where?

...and if there were any such thing....what EXACTLY was said?


It has long, and time and time again been proven that even when comments do, in fact exist, that people tend to read them "the way THEY want". One man's interpretation is usually different from another's....even when the exact quote can be supplied......which, in this case ......I'd sure like to see.

I know Graves made the comment about Josh being "nervous"...hell, I've raised that question myself here previously, but what specific comments about Graves and Michael "not liking Green's comments about drafting a QB" are you referring to?

This is exactly how so many unsubstantiated rumors get started.

 

[vikesfan]

Green knows MORE ABOUT QBing in the NFL then Graves/Bidwill or probably more then anyone else in the NFL.

This is not last year. Stop comparing.

DG will take the BPA. If he thinks Eli or Ben is the BPA he will take them if he doesn't he won't.

DG ATTACKED what happened last year!

DG is trying to correct the mistakes of the past he was the one who targeted Berry.

Trust in DG he knows how to win and build a winner. Every draft has franchise QBs who fail or aren't good for years. Leftwich is not in the draft this year.

Trust DG. He said the Cards should have taken Suggs last year!

His picks will make sense.

 

[azdad1978]

Are you talking about the same front office who traded down last year and miss out on Leftwich and then panicked at the 16 and 17 spot last year? Or are you talking about the same front office who said don't judge us now judge us after training camp crap. Or this team can get 8-8? This front office stinks. Yes Graves is a good man and he's not a lier but geez even his draft in Chicago stinks. He's a good contract negotiator but he doesn't have an eye for talent. Thank god last years WR coach told Graves to draft Boldin.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: Deja Vu all over again?

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
What reports? by whom? when ? where?

...and if there were any such thing....what EXACTLY was said?


It has long, and time and time again been proven that even when comments do, in fact exist, that people tend to read them "the way THEY want". One man's interpretation is usually different from another's....even when the exact quote can be supplied......which, in this case ......I'd sure like to see.

I know Graves made the comment about Josh being "nervous"...hell, I've raised that question myself here previously, but what specific comments about Graves and Michael "not liking Green's comments about drafting a QB" are you referring to?

This is exactly how so many unsubstantiated rumors get started.

First off, open your eyes and read. No were did I say they were quoted. It was posted here from an article as speculation from Darren Urban I believe. He said something tot he effect that Graves and M. Bidwill didint like the comments b/c they were still entertainining the idea of drafting a QB with the #3 overall pick and didint like being painted inot a corner. Thats all!

It was talked about on this boad for quite a while and no I dont have a link. But I am sure you could find it if it intrigues you that much. I did not 'Make it up"

 

[Tangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Deja Vu all over again?

Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
First off, open your eyes and read. No were did I say they were quoted. It was posted here from an article as speculation from Darren Urban I believe. He said something tot he effect that Graves and M. Bidwill didint like the comments b/c they were still entertainining the idea of drafting a QB with the #3 overall pick and didint like being painted inot a corner. Thats all!

It was talked about on this boad for quite a while and no I dont have a link. But I am sure you could find it if it intrigues you that much. I did not 'Make it up"

It sounds to me like SOMEONE has "embellished" things to some degree to fit THEIR own personal take, Whether it be Darren Urban, you, or whomever.

Take a chill pill. I didn't accuse you of lying or making it up. But you were the one who posted the comments.....with YOUR interpretation of them. Until you back up your "take" with something substantial...I, personally will dismiss it as not worth the time to consider seriously.

 

[spanky1]

Originally posted by Red Fury
Last year the Cards passed on Leftwich and Suggs and picked up a couple of guys in the first round that look like they wont be ready to contribute any time soon. To address the pass rush problem that had to go the FA route because their 1st rounder was terrible.

This year it looks like they will have the chance to draft another "franchise" QB. Hopefully they wont make the same mistake that they made last year.

In hindsight, if the Cards had taken Leftwich last year they would be in the position to really add to their team, maybe even going defense in round one this year.

McCown is not the answer, and no one outside of the Cardinals front office thinks that he is. The Cards have to go QB in the first round.

We have been having this debate for a long time prior to your arrival. FYI, there are LOTS of us (who are outside of the Cardinals front office) who believe that McCown will do just fine thank you very much and that the Cardinals do not (indeed should not) need to draft a QB this year on day #1.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Green knows MORE ABOUT QBing in the NFL then Graves/Bidwill or probably more then anyone else in the NFL.

This is not last year. Stop comparing.

DG will take the BPA. If he thinks Eli or Ben is the BPA he will take them if he doesn't he won't.

DG ATTACKED what happened last year!

DG is trying to correct the mistakes of the past he was the one who targeted Berry.

Trust in DG he knows how to win and build a winner. Every draft has franchise QBs who fail or aren't good for years. Leftwich is not in the draft this year.

Trust DG. He said the Cards should have taken Suggs last year!

His picks will make sense.

Trust in DG.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Deja Vu all over again?

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
It sounds to me like SOMEONE has "embellished" things to some degree to fit THEIR own personal take, Whether it be Darren Urban, you, or whomever.

Take a chill pill. I didn't accuse you of lying or making it up. But you were the one who posted the comments.....with YOUR interpretation of them. Until you back up your "take" with something substantial...I, personally will dismiss it as not worth the time to consider seriously.

Well thats what was said and I am sure the comments can be found if searched for. I dont have the inclination. sorry!

There was no room for interpretation in the comments made.

I am not sure why you find it so hard to believe that these two would have some reservations about NOT taking a QB in rnd 1?

I am sure someone on this board remembers it. Until then , go back to sleep!

 

[arthurracoon]

VikesFan is once again a voice of reason!

(see I can do more than just ing everything!)

 

[JeffGollin]

Technically LuvFreak is off the hook because all he said was that there were "reports" that the Cardinal front office was P.O.'d with Denny.

But Tango has a point - a "report" suggests news. Speculation is just that - conjecture in the reporter's mind.

Let stop for a moment and take all of this within context.

Denny is new to the team. Denny is used to being visible to the media. Meanwhile Rod, Rodd and Michael have to do the wheeling and dealing.

If there was, in fact, a degree of friction, it probably wasn't because Rod and Michael want to draft a QB and Denny didn't, but because they wanted to keep that option open to enhance their bargaining position should they want to trade down.

To do the lies & disinformation thing that GM's love to do leading up to the draft- and to do it well - you need a united front singing the same company song. My guess is that, if there was a problem, it was simply a matter of everyone still needing to get everyone to know one another better.

Rod and Michael may have had good reason to get miffed (if in fact they did) - if they felt Denny's comments about not drafting a QB weakened their bargaining position. But I also suspect that, since it was early in the relationship, it would be forgiven - with the understanding that, in the future, everyone talk to one another and get their messages straight before going public.

At least that's my take.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by vikesfan
DG is trying to correct the mistakes of the past he was the one who targeted Berry.

.

Where did you see that?

I dont remember anything were Green took any credit for 'targeting' Berry. Thats pure speculation!

 

[football karma]

On McCown --

his qb rating for the three games he started was around 80. Good but not great, but hardly a bust.

On the pov from outside the organization that McCown is not the answer, I wonder how much tape of McCown playing any of those people have watched, or if their opinion is merely based on the fact that he was a third round draft choice from a college they have dont follow.

I dont know or not if McCown is the answer, but I do know we have a coach who if he knows anything, knows QBs. He also has had a chance to watch a lot of film on McCown, and he thinks McCown has the potential to be really good. Thats all I need to know.

If this were Buddy Ryan making this evaluation, I would be scared. With Green, I am not.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Technically LuvFreak is off the hook

Jeff I am not sure if that were intentional or not....but thanks!

I do consider myself a bit of a 'Luv' freak!

 

[vikesfan]

Folks unless it's a direct quote DO NOT BELIEVE IT. The media makes things up all the time, they spin things, they embellish, they tell white lies, they repeat what someone tells them. Don't buy this stuff.

DG gave Graves the list of what he wanted. Young sacker. Berry = young sacker. Berry comes here DG talks to him explains his plan and what he BERRY FITS IN WITH HIS PLAN. Berry signs on the dotted line.

Please don't make me post my DG is in charge thing again. He cut Blake. He ripped Pace. He said Pace was an error. He said the extensions to some guys were an error. He said that they were going BPA this year. On and on and on it goes. DG is the personnel man here now. I have posted reams of evidence on this. Those folks who think Graves is still making the personnel moves when has the best personnel man in the NFL are dreaming. Now if the Cards trade down and reach for a player slated for 3rd round then you can pretty much be sure Graves is in charge. Did the team sign older mediocre FAs in bunches like Graves did NO!

It it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck.

The dude who talked Graves into taking Boldin is not here this year so you better PRAY DG is in charge.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Folks unless it's a direct quote DO NOT BELIEVE IT.

This means we can't believe 90% of what you say in your posts.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by RedStorm
Trust in DG.

And believe NOTHING that is said by teams at this time of year even if it is quoted correctly and in context

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Folks unless it's a direct quote DO NOT BELIEVE IT. The media makes things up all the time, they spin things, they embellish, they tell white lies, they repeat what someone tells them. Don't buy this stuff.

DG gave Graves the list of what he wanted. Young sacker. Berry = young sacker. Berry comes here DG talks to him explains his plan and what he BERRY FITS IN WITH HIS PLAN. Berry signs on the dotted line.

Please don't make me post my DG is in charge thing again. He cut Blake. He ripped Pace. He said Pace was an error. He said the extensions to some guys were an error. He said that they were going BPA this year. On and on and on it goes. DG is the personnel man here now. I have posted reams of evidence on this. Those folks who think Graves is still making the personnel moves when has the best personnel man in the NFL are dreaming. Now if the Cards trade down and reach for a player slated for 3rd round then you can pretty much be sure Graves is in charge. Did the team sign older mediocre FAs in bunches like Graves did NO!

It it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck.

The dude who talked Graves into taking Boldin is not here this year so you better PRAY DG is in charge.

You dont want us to believe anything unless its a direct quote, yet you turn around on a tyraid about how 'if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck' etc.

Which is it Vikesfan? Am I to believe DG is in charge even though it has been said on numerous occasions when he was first hired that Graves is still in charge of player personnel, or your 'walk like a duck' theory?

 

[vikesfan]

Originally posted by Pariah
This means we can't believe 90% of what you say in your posts.

Well all my posts are direct quotes I don't play the hearsay game. I say look at what is happening and come to your own conclusins. Plus I am not a member of the mainstream media.
You got that Blondie!



I was talking about the comment that Bidwill/Graves were upset about DG. IF THEY SAY SO IN THE MEDIA then yeah you can be sure they were upset with DG. But wait for that quote okay.

Now as to who is in charge. Well DG can't just cut Blake or draft Fitz. He has to explain to Graves WHY he is cutting Blake or drafting FITZ!


So technically they are not lieing to the people. Graves has the last word. But the point is the man who had to be talked into drafting Boldin and who made A HORRIFIC mess of the draft and FA last year is that man going to tell the man who was voted BEST GM by PFW for 5 years that he should not cut Blake and not draft Fitz. Sure had can theretically tell DG no and DG must explain but is he going to disagree. If he is why hire DG. Cause DG has (you are making me repeat this for the 30th times thanks) ALWAYS said only 1 person makes the call on a player the coach. Graves Bidwill and everyone else DG talked to knew this. This is why DG did not take the JAX and OAK jobs.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I wonder how many times Vikesfan can say DG in one post... Probably a lot...

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by vikesfan
Well all my posts are direct quotes I don't play the hearsay game.

~VF: "Randy Moss is the ultimate team player." I have only seen quotes to the contrary.
~VF: "Bidwill can't afford to pay for free agents like other NFL owners." Not true--especially if youuse your own definition of the slary cap and revenue sharing.
~VF: "DG is in charge." Again, I've only seen quotes that say Rod Graves is in charge.

 

[vikesfan]

Originally posted by Pariah
~VF: "Randy Moss is the ultimate team player." I have only seen quotes to the contrary.
~VF: "Bidwill can't afford to pay for free agents like other NFL owners." Not true--especially if youuse your own definition of the slary cap and revenue sharing.
~VF: "DG is in charge." Again, I've only seen quotes that say Rod Graves is in charge.

You obviously are not a very learned man are you.

Yes and I backed up all those positions with either FACTS or QUOTES.

-Randy Moss: They don't have to throw the ball to me they can use me as a decoy if it wins games.

- FACT The Bidwills HAVE NO INCOME outside the Cards. That is a fact. A fact is like a direct quote.
In fact it is even stronger. Because peope will sometimes lie in order to get an advantage or example in regards to a draft.
Snyder and Red and P Allen have outside business (fact) therefore they can afford to give huge upfront bonuses to players that come out of those funds and then pro-rate the bonuses into the cap which the Bidwills can't do.

-DG is the de facto GM.I have presented quotes DG made regarding his position on this matter. MORE IMPORTANT I have presented FACTS substantiating this.


Get it? This isn't brain surgery. I present a case I use facts and direct quotes. A direct quote doesn't make it true it just gives it more credence. But at the end of the day FACTS are what count.
If Bush says that is a Lion but it walks and talks like a duck then its duck.

Sure Moss said that about being decoy but look at the facts after he said he performed at a high level so you can assume he didn't mind. He didn't ask for a trade so you can assume he didnt lie.

Facts support quotes. With the Bidwill Graves statement on QBs
and DG all I was saying was
at least lets get the statement from them and then factually analysize there is no point in analyizing things we are not sure they even said

 

[spanky1]

Rod Graves=General Manager.

His role is to "think with the big head and not the little head". His job is to develop an organizational mission statement and a strategic field operating plan ( in consort with Green and his Assistants) and communicate it to the ownership group.

He is responsible for developing a financial operating plan and to guide the organization within the parameters of the plan to ensure organizational stability/viablity on a short, medium and long term basis.

He is to provide advice and counsel on all matters pertaining to player contracts and is responsible for the negotiation of all player contracts.

This is what Rod Graves' role is.

Dennis Green=Head Coach.

His role is to develop and execute the game to game planning necessary to win football games. He is responsible for the hiring and supervision of subordinate staff.

He is responsible for player evaluation and for the identification of additional players that will allow him to successfully implement his game to game planning activities.

He is responsible for providing the necessary training and player development activities that will allow for his players to preform to the best of their abilities.

He is responsible for communicating the mission/value statement of the organization to his subordinate staff and to his players and for all other matters pertaining to morale building and disciplinary action.

I'm sure this is how Graves and Green have decided to work together........anybody who thinks Graves will be running this draft is "OTL".........if Green wants Fitzgerald over Manning, so be it. Graves will defer........and if Green doesn't produce, Green is responsible....pur and simple. He would not have taken this job under any other terms of reference. To read anything beyond this is foolhardy and a waste of energy. There are no "between the lines" with this.....to think otherwise is foolhardy.