Dennis Green has to be Regretting...

[AZ Shocker]

How embarressing for Dennis Green. Whether its by his own doing, or simply the "Cardinal Curse"...how can Dennis Green ever justify this mess to his peers. Once a proud head coach, accomplishing great feats, and now wallowing in the desert wasteland known as the Arizona Bidwills.

What happens here? Why can good players and coaches suck here? Some people put on blinders and don't wanna ever blame the owner. But how can you not. He is the one making these hires. What next...hire Jimmy Johnson? Another "has been"? I'm sure Billy would love too. Should that happen...here we go again.

 

[clif]

How embarressing for Dennis Green. Whether its by his own doing, or simply the "Cardinal Curse"...how can Dennis Green ever justify this mess to his peers. Once a proud head coach, accomplishing great feats, and now wallowing in the desert wasteland known as the Arizona Bidwills.

What happens here? Why can good players and coaches suck here? Some people put on blinders and don't wanna ever blame the owner. But how can you not. He is the one making these hires. What next...hire Jimmy Johnson? Another "has been"? I'm sure Billy would love too. Should that happen...here we go again.

Why search for someone to blame? How about finding answers. I pose this question to you. What more could the ownership have done this offseason to prevent a 2-6 year?

 

[Red Air Force]

Why search for someone to blame? How about finding answers. I pose this question to you. What more could the ownership have done this offseason to prevent a 2-6 year?

Use all the cap space?

 

[clif]

Use all the cap space?

and that would have done what? How would you deal with injuries? How would you replace injured players?

 

[red desert]

Why search for someone to blame? How about finding answers. I pose this question to you. What more could the ownership have done this offseason to prevent a 2-6 year?

Yeah, maybe we could have given ROSS and HUFF even more money.

 

[john h]

Why search for someone to blame? How about finding answers. I pose this question to you. What more could the ownership have done this offseason to prevent a 2-6 year?

Ownership could have set up an organizational structure much like most NFL teams use. Have a GM with GM responsibilities and authority for a starter. Rod Graves might be a decent GM but who really knows because he has never acted in that capacity. It seems that ownership has been very reluctant to give up responsibilities over the years. We have always operated just a little different than other NFL teams when it comes to contracts and organizational structure. Out of this has come what we see today.

 

[john h]

and that would have done what? How would you deal with injuries? How would you replace injured players?

All teams deal with injuries. Perhaps we should not have fired some players only to replace them with worse players and as pointed out we had plenty of CAP money to purchase 1-2 good players. I suspect Green was told he could not spend the money.

 

[duckfallas]

Ownership could stick with a coach for more than 3 years. Look at Seattle and how many years it took Holmgren to get that team to where it is today. He had a great quote about O line continuity in the paper today. The Cards will never achieve that as long as they keep making changes every 3-4 years.

 

[NavyVet]

Use all the cap space?

Anyone find it remotely interesting that our cap space dollars nearly equals the amount of money the Cards say they lost last year..approximately $4.9 million?

 

[Toro]

Using $4.9 M in cap space would not make a impact on the win loss record of this team.

 

[clif]

Ownership could have set up an organizational structure much like most NFL teams use. Have a GM with GM responsibilities and authority for a starter. Rod Graves might be a decent GM but who really knows because he has never acted in that capacity. It seems that ownership has been very reluctant to give up responsibilities over the years. We have always operated just a little different than other NFL teams when it comes to contracts and organizational structure. Out of this has come what we see today.

]

How do you know what role or responsibilities RG has or doesn't have? FYI RG has stated numerous times that the structure of the contracts the team offers has been different for at least the last 2.. maybe even 3.. so to point to that as reasons for today's problems is pretty weak arguement.

 

[duckfallas]

It would have if they had signed a Ted Washington like vet to plug up the middle of this defense.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think you need to figure out what most other NFL teams hold back for injuries and do that, and I guarantee we held back more than they did because we had more caproom than most NFL teams.

People have to remember in the offseason the rumors were we were actively interested in either Alexander or Edge, and the asking price was a 2nd round pick, and we balked. That pick became JJ, who I think will be a good player but certainly wasn't NFL ready. Can't for one minute believe the Cards felt the 44th pick in the draft was going to be better than Edge or Alexander so they had to say no because of the contract they'd have to give them.

Later in the offseason word break we were one of the teams looking at Patrick Surtain, I got all excited since I'd been hyping that for weeks because it would mean we didn't HAVE to take a CB with the first pick if a better player fell to us. Again the asking price was not high, the Chiefs gave up their 2nd and 5th rounder to Miami in exchange for Surtain and the Dolphins 5th round pick. THe Chiefs moved UP in the 5th round in the deal so essentially Surtain was traded for a 2nd rounder. Again the reason the Cards weren't interested? Because Surtain got a 7 year deal for a lot of money the assumption is the Cards balked at the contract he wanted.

In either situation you can easily argue that giving up the 2nd rounder would have helped the team this year, even with Surtain now injured the Chiefs got more games out of him than we did rolle(and he's not out for the year) and we STILL could have taken Rolle at 8 if Green really felt he was the BPA. Or we could have taken Derrick Johnson, moved down and taken Aaron Rodgers, take Jammal Brown(OT went to the Saints) etc. There was no clear cut can't miss DT in this draft, Travis Johnson went the highest but he's the same size as Dockett and not as good a player.

The point is in both cases it would appear the Cards felt the contract for the player was going to be too high to justify giving up the 2nd round pick, so money made the decision. If money didn't make the decision then we have to believe that Rod Graves and Dennis Green believed the 44th pick in the draft was better than Edge, Alexander or Surtain.

 

[ARZCardinals]

Green doesn't regret anything here.

he needed 4 years to turn this trash heap around.

he's only had 1 1/2 years.


I'm sure he expected better.

 

[40yearfan]

I think you need to figure out what most other NFL teams hold back for injuries and do that, and I guarantee we held back more than they did because we had more caproom than most NFL teams.

People have to remember in the offseason the rumors were we were actively interested in either Alexander or Edge, and the asking price was a 2nd round pick, and we balked. That pick became JJ, who I think will be a good player but certainly wasn't NFL ready. Can't for one minute believe the Cards felt the 44th pick in the draft was going to be better than Edge or Alexander so they had to say no because of the contract they'd have to give them.

Later in the offseason word break we were one of the teams looking at Patrick Surtain, I got all excited since I'd been hyping that for weeks because it would mean we didn't HAVE to take a CB with the first pick if a better player fell to us. Again the asking price was not high, the Chiefs gave up their 2nd and 5th rounder to Miami in exchange for Surtain and the Dolphins 5th round pick. THe Chiefs moved UP in the 5th round in the deal so essentially Surtain was traded for a 2nd rounder. Again the reason the Cards weren't interested? Because Surtain got a 7 year deal for a lot of money the assumption is the Cards balked at the contract he wanted.

In either situation you can easily argue that giving up the 2nd rounder would have helped the team this year, even with Surtain now injured the Chiefs got more games out of him than we did rolle(and he's not out for the year) and we STILL could have taken Rolle at 8 if Green really felt he was the BPA. Or we could have taken Derrick Johnson, moved down and taken Aaron Rodgers, take Jammal Brown(OT went to the Saints) etc. There was no clear cut can't miss DT in this draft, Travis Johnson went the highest but he's the same size as Dockett and not as good a player.

The point is in both cases it would appear the Cards felt the contract for the player was going to be too high to justify giving up the 2nd round pick, so money made the decision. If money didn't make the decision then we have to believe that Rod Graves and Dennis Green believed the 44th pick in the draft was better than Edge, Alexander or Surtain.

Speculation Russ. How do we know if it was that or DG's ego telling him that he didn't need those players and could "coach up" what he had or get better players in the draft. This team supposedly has some talent (according to all the pundits who picked the Cards to vie for the division title). I think we have some "not so great" coaching, poor game planning, and no serious gung-ho leaders like Larry Centers, Ron McKinnon or Aneas Williams.

 

[BigRedMO]

Anyone find it remotely interesting that our cap space dollars nearly equals the amount of money the Cards say they lost last year..approximately $4.9 million?

You are on the right track. There has to be something other than coaches and players to explain so many decades of poor football. When players and coaches keep changing but results dont you have to look at the constants over that period of time. Ownership is a huge constant. Is it coincidence that only NFL team to lose money are the Cardinals, they are significantly below the cap, they dont have adequate quality depth, and they are hands down the disaster pro franchise for decades. The problem is not a transitory one of players and coaches. Bidwill does not have the money to compete in the NFL. The players know this and dont give maximum effort which only compounds the problem.

 

[nidan]

Green doesn't regret anything here.

he needed 4 years to turn this trash heap around.

he's only had 1 1/2 years.


I'm sure he expected better.

Exactly.

Due to poor drafting, coaching and retention we have no depth. DG beleives in building from the draft and he is doing that.

We still have many players help over from the Tobin/Mac era that are not earning their keep. Davies seems to be high on that list along with Pace and BJ.

Sure Pace is out due to injury and was starting to get better, the bottom line is that right now he isn't there. Neither are all the others on IR and just injured. When you don't have depth, injuries will kill a season.

 

[john h]

You are on the right track. There has to be something other than coaches and players to explain so many decades of poor football. When players and coaches keep changing but results dont you have to look at the constants over that period of time. Ownership is a huge constant. Is it coincidence that only NFL team to lose money are the Cardinals, they are significantly below the cap, they dont have adequate quality depth, and they are hands down the disaster pro franchise for decades. The problem is not a transitory one of players and coaches. Bidwill does not have the money to compete in the NFL. The players know this and dont give maximum effort which only compounds the problem.

Perhaps the same coincidence we have been a very poor team for 50 years. Some owners put winning above profits as they have so much money. Others seem to put profits ahead of winning which can be argued either way (which comes first) winning or profits. This Bidwills by NFL ownership standards are not the wealthy people who would put winning ahead of profits. Our use of CAP money backs that up. They should be getting a clue by now as the Cards are the least valued of all NFL franchises.

 

[Shane]

Green doesn't regret anything here.

he needed 4 years to turn this trash heap around.

he's only had 1 1/2 years.


I'm sure he expected better.

In the starting post of this thread it was referred to Dennis Greens "great coaching feets" could someone please tell me what those are?

The guy went to the playoffs 8 out of 10 years in Minny. Thats good Ill give him that. But it certainly isnt anything great. His teams were known for dissapearing when it mattered most. he never went to a SB never won an NFC championship etc.... So where is the great?

As to the post above. What is it with the whole 3 and 4 year plan? I dont see Lovey Smith in Chcago needing more than a 1 1/2 years or Tom Coughlin in NY?

Can we please just get off this rebuilding takes 3 to 4 years to get your system in place etc... Because its just not true.

 

[john h]

You are on the right track. There has to be something other than coaches and players to explain so many decades of poor football. When players and coaches keep changing but results dont you have to look at the constants over that period of time. Ownership is a huge constant. Is it coincidence that only NFL team to lose money are the Cardinals, they are significantly below the cap, they dont have adequate quality depth, and they are hands down the disaster pro franchise for decades. The problem is not a transitory one of players and coaches. Bidwill does not have the money to compete in the NFL. The players know this and dont give maximum effort which only compounds the problem.

Someone posted that 4.9 mil of unspent CAP would make no difference in our play this year. Maybe or maybe not but you can be sure that doing it year after year after year makes a giant difference.

 

[Shane]

Exactly.

Due to poor drafting, coaching and retention we have no depth. DG beleives in building from the draft and he is doing that.

We still have many players help over from the Tobin/Mac era that are not earning their keep. Davies seems to be high on that list along with Pace and BJ.

Sure Pace is out due to injury and was starting to get better, the bottom line is that right now he isn't there. Neither are all the others on IR and just injured. When you don't have depth, injuries will kill a season.

Excuse me nidan but we have a roster full of Denny Green guys who are not earning there keep. His personell decisions are looking not as bright with each passing week.

 

[nidan]

John while I don't agree with your conclusions. It is true IMO, that we have had problems for many years due to porr management.

I also belice M Bidwill is slow, very slowly turning that around but you don't fix decades of ineptitude in 2 years

 

[john h]

In the starting post of this thread it was referred to Dennis Greens "great coaching feets" could someone please tell me what those are?

The guy went to the playoffs 8 out of 10 years in Minny. Thats good Ill give him that. But it certainly isnt anything great. His teams were known for dissapearing when it mattered most. he never went to a SB never won an NFC championship etc.... So where is the great?

As to the post above. What is it with the whole 3 and 4 year plan? I dont see Lovey Smith in Chcago needing more than a 1 1/2 years or Tom Coughlin in NY?

Can we please just get off this rebuilding takes 3 to 4 years to get your system in place etc... Because its just not true.

One of our problems with a 4 year plan in AZ is that in your 4th year you start to lose your better players in FA. In todays FA market you better be able to turn a team around much sooner than 4 years. That may have worked years ago both in baseball and football but not today. Teams can rise from the bottom in two years. The Bengals, Chargers, Bears and others did not take 4 years to turn a team around. Good teams tend to remain that way as they attract the best FA's and are generally have coaches and management that got them there in the first place. Bad teams have a lot to overcome and must take the extra steps over and beyond to dig out of the celler.

 

[Shane]

Heres a list of Greens Busts/underperformaers(I mean have done little to improve this team or make any type of real posotive contibution) to date:

Kurt Warner
Oliver Ross
Eric Green
JJ. Arrington
James Jackson
Robert Griffith
Orlando Huff
Darnell Dockett

All of these guys were expected to be apart of this turn around. You could add lesser players who havent turned into squat as of yet such as:

Anotonio Smith
Lance Mitchell
Darryl Blackstock
Robert Tate
Adam bergen

and others who are injured and giving no contribution.

 

[red desert]

Excuse me nidan but we have a roster full of Denny Green guys who are not earning there keep. His personell decisions are looking not as bright with each passing week.

Exactly. So far, he is not much better than Mac. And that is scary.