Developing Len, Warren, Goodwin & Ennis

[sunsfan88]

I don't know what it is about McD or Hornacek (maybe its a Boston-Utah thing?) but these guys need to pay more attention to and give their lottery and 1st rd pick rookies (Len, Warren, Goodwin, Ennis) opportunities to develop.

IMO, winning some basketball games and then ending up with #9 seed in the West again isn't nearly as important as developing these guys to see what they have. Neither is the idea of maybe getting in as the #8 seed and getting ass kicked by the Spurs or Clippers in the first round.

Suns are in a great position where these young guys can learn from hard workers on the team like Dragic and Tucker but that doesn't mean these young guys need to stay glued to the bench to watch them. They could play with them and learn.

Hornacek seems to think that we are the Clippers or Rockets or something. No coach, we aren't competing for a title. Our roster isn't stacked with elite talent. We need to develop the guys, our priorities are different from priorities that contenders have. We're trying to find if we have a potential star in either Len, Warren, Goodwin or Ennis. Contenders already have multiple star players on their roster.

Now I'm not saying one season of playing time will give us all we need to know about em. However, the more experience they get the better.

For the sake of god, bench Plumlee and start Len. I don't care if Len blows 10 layups in a row, I'd rather watch him suck and learn from his mistakes than watch 26 year old Plumlee who has been in this league for 3 years and had 4 years college experience look like an idiot out there. Plumlee has already hit ceiling. Len has not.

Integrate Warren in also. If its as starter, great. If not, then still get him in there on a consistent basis. Same with Goodwin and Ennis.

Make trades if you have to.

Being mediocre or garbage while developing rookies and youngsters who have potential > being mediocre or garbage with a bunch of vets who have already hit their ceiling

 

[Hoop Head]

Len is getting more minutes this year which is a plus and he's already showed flashes of what he could be. I think it's too early to give him the starting job though. I believe that if he is given the job over Plumlee then Plumlee's confidence will plummet. Sure Len has shown flashes of being really good and has had a couple of good games but he needs to string together 3 or 4 games like the Spurs or Clippers game in order to get the starting role. Of course in order for him to string those games together he needs to get the opportunity to do so which means he needs to be kept on the floor while he's playing well and Plumlee needs to be pulled when he's not contributing on either end.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't think they could find playing time for Ennis considering the 3 PG's we have that are also our 3 best players. Being in the D-League is more beneficial I think right now unless an injury occurs. Same goes with Goodwin to a point but when Green is cold, which doesn't take that long to figure out, he should be logging those minutes since Green offers nothing but offense.

Warren is an interesting player. I think he might be able to play the stretch 4 role that Hornacek and McD covet but I'm not entirely sure. He has to be better than Tolliver though. Putting him in the second unit with Tucker covering the 2 forward spots should be given a chance. Tucker is a quality rebounder for a SF and should make up for a mediocre rebounder at the PF spot. Also Tucker has the strength and skill to guard a lot of PF's in the league, of course not the top tier like Aldridge or Love but he had that job last year while he was paired with Frye and did well. Warren could be a much better rebounder and defender than I think and have seen in limited time. He does have some size to him though, I believe he's as tall as Tolliver is. For a second unit lineup it can't hurt to experiment. If the two work well together then put them in as starters and bring the Morris twins off the bench like last year. If Len can take Plumlee's job then only put Plumlee in when we really need him, using the twins more at PF & C off the bench giving them more minutes.

Warren is the big question mark though. He was consistent in college, played great in Summer League, and then got injured. I can understand having him in the D-League to work his way back into game shape after missing preseason but he can't be worse than Tolliver though and should take his minutes. Even when Tolliver is in the team doesn't function close to how they did with Frye last year. He was brought in to fill that role according to management which is why I compare the 2. I know he was cheap but considering the money the Suns spent extending the twins and Tucker they would have been better off with an empty roster spot than him. All he brings to the table is a 3 point shot that is isn't as good as advertised and in the second unit no one even looks to get him involved. He's worse than Frye was defensively and also a much worse rebounder. Frye at least tried hard defensively and gave a lot of effort, which I'm yet to see from Tolliver.

 

[BC867]

I have had high hopes (that is more "h" words than I have ever used in a row ) for GM Ryan McDonough, but this year's Suns team is all fluff and could hardly be described as solid in its striving for success.

For those of you old enough to remember, he is the equivalent of the old Edsel. Two of its models overlapping with Ford and the other two overlapping with Mercury. Too many tweeners. Too many Point Guards.

I am beginning to feel that McDonough is going to suffer the same fate as the Edsel. A waste of time and money and a short existence.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have had high hopes (that is more "h" words than I have ever used in a row ) for GM Ryan McDonough, but this year's Suns team is all fluff and could hardly be described as solid in its striving for success.

For those of you old enough to remember, he is the equivalent of the old Edsel. Two of its models overlapping with Ford and the other two overlapping with Mercury. Too many tweeners. Too many Point Guards.

I am beginning to feel that McDonough is going to suffer the same fate as the Edsel. A waste of time and money and a short existence.

So you believe we should build for Sunday, not the whole week? This is a process. I seriously doubt this is the final product he's aiming at. Was there an acquisition that was within our reach that would have moved us close to contention? I don't see one. I do think he miscalculated. He and probably Jeff too both underestimated the importance of Channing to this team. And I mean this team, not every team in the league. The absence of a leader on defense and the absence of a good catch and shoot guard/forward/center has destroyed the flow and chemistry of last year's team.

Steve

 

[95pro]

Tolliver is no Frye. Tolliver is nothing

 

[WildBB]

Tolliver is too soft on D.

Find some time for Warren.

Len definitely needs to start seeing more minutes unless Plumblee starts to amp it up on the D side.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am happy with Len's development. He is getting some playing time, and if he is playing well, he is getting extended minutes.

Until one of the three point guards is gone, there is simply no time for Goodwin and Ennis.

TJ should get some minutes. Start him with Toliver's minutes and then if he is playing well, give him some of Marcus' minutes as well.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I am happy with Len's development. He is getting some playing time, and if he is playing well, he is getting extended minutes.

Until one of the three point guards is gone, there is simply no time for Goodwin and Ennis.

TJ should get some minutes. Start him with Toliver's minutes and then if he is playing well, give him some of Marcus' minutes as well.

I'd go a step further, I'd just start him. I don't believe in necessarily throwing rookies into the fray but in some cases I think it makes sense. In Warren's case it makes a lot of sense.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

I'd go a step further, I'd just start him. I don't believe in necessarily throwing rookies into the fray but in some cases I think it makes sense. In Warren's case it makes a lot of sense.

Steve

I would not oppose that. I am a huge Tucker fan, but I would be fine with Warren starting. My only concern is that if he starts, the Suns have no three-point shooting. Even if Goran regained his shooting from last year, that's not enough shooting in the starting lineup.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I would not oppose that. I am a huge Tucker fan, but I would be fine with Warren starting. My only concern is that if he starts, the Suns have no three-point shooting. Even if Goran regained his shooting from last year, that's not enough shooting in the starting lineup.

I think Warren is our best bet at becoming a 3 point shooter. It hasn't been his strength in the past but it's clear he's been working on it and the man just knows how to score (tired phrase but it fits).

Steve

 

[Superbone]

I would not oppose that. I am a huge Tucker fan, but I would be fine with Warren starting. My only concern is that if he starts, the Suns have no three-point shooting. Even if Goran regained his shooting from last year, that's not enough shooting in the starting lineup.

Did you watch the Jam highlights? Warren's three is coming along quite nicely.

 

[BC867]

So you believe we should build for Sunday, not the whole week? This is a process.

Of course I believe we should build for the whole week.
Having our three best players as Point Guards could get by as an occasional Sunday.

But a team that unbalanced is hardly building for the whole week, let alone the whole season. And playoffs.

This process has gotten off on the wrong foot. Having Dragic and Thomas to share the point (with Goran playing some "2" now and then) is a process.

Re-adding a third Point Guard is a process in the wrong direction. It is the short-sighted approach. Which is why I have lost faith in our recent GM as a basketball mind.

And I feel bad for Jeff who has to produce with a dysfunctional team. He deserves better, as do all of us.

 

[SirStefan32]

Did you watch the Jam highlights? Warren's three is coming along quite nicely.

I have, but I am very cautious about making more out of D-League games, training camp, summer league, etc than they are worth.

 

[elindholm]

The Suns already have enough players who can bomb from the outside. It's Warren's mid-range game that has the potential to fill a need.

 

[Errntknght]

I certainly agree with the sunsfan's main thesis but I do think its in Ennis' best interest to stay in the D-league for a good bit. Bring him back when one of our other three PG's goes out.

Last year I harped on it but I'm not too concerned about Len's development now -sadly its happening because Plumlee still hasn't returned to his best form as much as Len looking better. I don't believe its going to hurt Miles' confidence when Len replaces him as the starter - he's got to know its going to happen and when it does actually happen it will be sort of a relief, and he'll do better with less pressure. All he really has to do is play with the exuberance he showed early last year.

I'm also not too concerned about Warren, I expect him back from the D league quite soon and I think he'll force his way into the rotation because he's such a reliable scorer. He also has a decent stroke from 3pt range and Hornacek obviously prizes that.

That leaves Goodwin and his situation is going to get worse because of Warren - if Jeff didn't give him a shot when Green stunk it up recently when would he ever do it? It appears it will take a conscious decision on Hornacek's part to put development ahead of wins and that will probably never occur - it pains me to say it because I expected better from Jeff (and McD).

I believe there is a way to get Goodwin onto the floor without deciding to sacrifice wins but it take a very large paradigm shift. Not even counting Ennis we have seven guards and if we played them all we could pour way more energy onto the floor at those positions than our opponents could match - the extra energy being exerted on defense, of course.
The main reason I liked Bledsoe when he played for the Clips was that he was disruptive on defense - which we have seen virtually none of since he arrived. I wasn't greatly surprised because he had to conserve energy to play starters minutes.
So cut his minutes back so that he can be that disruptive force again. Cut Dragic and IT's minutes as well and task them to be as disruptive as possible. Now we have playing time for our other guards and demand the same defensive pressure from them - heck extend to the SF slot as well since we have the manpower. Press all over the floor enough to burn up the energy.

Nobody liked this idea when I trotted it out a month ago, so I'm not expecting much better, even though the situation has deteriorated in the meantime.

 

[Superbone]

The Suns already have enough players who can bomb from the outside. It's Warren's mid-range game that has the potential to fill a need.

That's fine but the three will open it up that much more for his mid-range game.

 

[elindholm]

That's fine but the three will open it up that much more for his mid-range game.

That depends on how he receives the ball. If he's rooted outside the three-point line waiting for a pass, like every other spot-up shooter, that does nothing for the overall offense. He needs to be on the move all throughout the court and a threat to score from anywhere. The Suns' overall motion on offense is poor now, in part because most of their players don't have to be guarded unless they are behind the arc or at the rim, so the defense has much less that they have to react to.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I guess that is why I am not so worried about wins and losses right now. I understand the Suns could miss the playoffs because of losses in November, but developing the team is most important.

Len getting 17 and 11 against the Clips is huge. Warren is going to be a starter and highly productive on this team, its just a matter of when.

 

[WuRaider]

At 5-5 and inconsistent play, Hornacek needs to make some tweaks.

-Bench Marcus for PJ. We need PJ's defensive aggressiveness from the start, Marcus hasn't played well enough to keep his spot.

-Bench Tolliver for the season, mark it up as the first real bad move by McD. Let Marcus play the 4 off the bench.

-Move TJ into the rotation and let him back up PJ. This kid is too good, he needs to play.

If we keep struggling, Isiah should be traded to a team with a need for a starting point. One reason why Bled/Dragic worked so well last year was because of Ish Smith. Ish was a minor role player, allowing Bled/Dragic to do it all when they weren't paired together. Now, they have to share with Isiah and it's not working....

 

[elindholm]

If we keep struggling, Isiah should be traded to a team with a need for a starting point.

That's going to be tough when he has shown no ability to run an offense. His assist/36min has hovered around 6 for his entire career, and that's very far below average among NBA PGs.

Edit: My bad, I just assumed you were talking about Bledsoe, not Thomas. Disregard this post.

 

[Chaplin]

Still trying to figure out why so many people have their panties in a bunch about Tolliver. He's treated like he's the reason we've lost games. He's barely getting just over 9 minutes per game. He comes in, shoots, if he misses once, he sits. That's it. Why the fascination with him? I know he's not Frye, but so what? He's not helping, but he's not hurting either. The fact is we don't have any big bodies and he is the last big body we have. Now that Warren is back, he will almost certainly take those few minutes, which unfortunately, won't be nearly enough to develop the kid.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's going to be tough when he has shown no ability to run an offense. His assist/36min has hovered around 6 for his entire career, and that's very far below average among NBA PGs.

In (2014 MVP of the All Star game) Kyrie Irving's best season he only averaged 6.1 assists per game. Thomas bested him in most categories last season and his career per 36 assists average is higher than Irving's. Thomas in his final year under his current contract will earn a little more than 10 million less than Kyrie. I'm pretty sure there's a market for IT.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

In (2014 MVP of the All Star game) Kyrie Irving's best season he only averaged 6.1 assists per game. Thomas bested him in most categories last season and his career per 36 assists average is higher than Irving's. Thomas in his final year under his current contract will earn a little more than 10 million less than Kyrie. I'm pretty sure there's a market for IT.

Whoops, I completely overlooked that the previous post was about Thomas, not Bledsoe. Yes, I agree that there is a market for Thomas.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Whoops, I completely overlooked that the previous post was about Thomas, not Bledsoe. Yes, I agree that there is a market for Thomas.

Lakers?