Developing Len, Warren, Goodwin & Ennis

[SirStefan32]

Zoran is just not an NBA player. Of course he is not going to get minutes behind his brother, Bledsoe, IT, green, and even Goodwin.

 

[Superbone]

Zoran is just not an NBA player.

I think it's way too early to say that.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think it's way too early to say that.

No, it is not too early to tell. He can't shoot, he is not all that athletic, he is an average defender. There isn't one thing he does particularly well. He is a decent Euro League player, but he is not an NBA player.

 

[Superbone]

No, it is not too early to tell. He can't shoot, he is not all that athletic, he is an average defender. There isn't one thing he does particularly well. He is a decent Euro League player, but he is not an NBA player.

Agree to disagree. I watched all of Slovenia's games this Summer. He's a good shooter and defends quite well. He'll get an opportunity at some point whether it's on this team or another.

 

[Mainstreet]

No, it is not too early to tell. He can't shoot, he is not all that athletic, he is an average defender. There isn't one thing he does particularly well. He is a decent Euro League player, but he is not an NBA player.

You may be right, but I don't see how you have enough evidence to reach this conclusion. As I recall, there were two other NBA teams that expressed interest in him.

 

[SirStefan32]

You may be right, but I don't see how you have enough evidence to reach this conclusion. As I recall, there were two other NBA teams that expressed interest in him.

Well, I admit that I don't follow Euro basketball as closely as I have in the past, but I watch some, and still have SOME contacts in Europe. From what I have seen and heard he is just not an NBA player. Sure, he is a good defender in Europe. Sure, he can get to the rim in Europe. Hell, Casey Jacobsen had a nice career in Europe (even won some kind of an MVP award in Germany- can't remember exactly what it was).

Being a good defender or a scorer in Europe is one thing. Translating that into NBA success is not easy. Players are just MUCH better, faster, more agile, more athletic. To make it in the NBA, even as a minor role-player, you have to be able to do something extremely well. He doesn't do anything extremely well.

 

[Mainstreet]

Well, I admit that I don't follow Euro basketball as closely as I have in the past, but I watch some, and still have SOME contacts in Europe. From what I have seen and heard he is just not an NBA player. Sure, he is a good defender in Europe. Sure, he can get to the rim in Europe. Hell, Casey Jacobsen had a nice career in Europe (even won some kind of an MVP award in Germany- can't remember exactly what it was).

Being a good defender or a scorer in Europe is one thing. Translating that into NBA success is not easy. Players are just MUCH better, faster, more agile, more athletic. To make it in the NBA, even as a minor role-player, you have to be able to do something extremely well. He doesn't do anything extremely well.

Maybe we will find out about Zoran this current season as I feel it likely the Suns will not keep all the extra players at the 1,2 and 3 positions. IMO, when the Suns were acquiring this depth, they had to be thinking trade down the line.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am sure there will be a trade. One of the PGs has to go. I am more excited about finding out what we have in Goodwin and Bogdanovic (in a couple of years) than I am about Zoran Dragic.

 

[95pro]

The problem with Warren is that the lack of effective team defense requires PJ to be on the court. And then there is Marcus, who plays well with Kieff, and Kieff seems to play better with on the court. The only time I see Warren getting would be at pf.

Maybe they want him to bulk up some. But he was bigger in college his freshman year, and was not as effective. The way to eventually use Warren is probably to trade the twins for an effective 4. Either that or break up the twins. Marcus is just in the way.

About Len. He seems to be getting the minutes when he is being productive. Horny played him until he fouled out against the Clips.

We need an effective sf and/or center before we need a 4.

Keep Tucker. Lose Marcus and Tolliver. If we can find a better Tucker than do so. But to say Kieff isn't doing his job is a bit baffling.

 

[Mainstreet]

I am sure there will be a trade. One of the PGs has to go. I am more excited about finding out what we have in Goodwin and Bogdanovic (in a couple of years) than I am about Zoran Dragic.

This is the thing, one never knows what players will be needed to acquire a star player. Maybe a team will covet the rights to Bogdanovic or other young players such as Ennis, Warren, Goodwin as a trade piece. When the cloud clears after a trade, the Suns may have minutes for Zoran.

 

[SirStefan32]

This is the thing, one never knows what players will be needed to acquire a star player. Maybe a team will covet the rights to Bogdanovic or other young players such as Ennis, Warren, Goodwin as a trade piece. When the cloud clears after a trade, the Suns may have minutes for Zoran.

Fair enough.

 

[Hoop Head]

We need an effective sf and/or center before we need a 4.

Keep Tucker. Lose Marcus and Tolliver. If we can find a better Tucker than do so. But to say Kieff isn't doing his job is a bit baffling.

Kieff is not doing his job that well, I'm not sure why everyone seems to think he's great or even above average. He's not playing any better than he did last season even though he has an expanded role, more minutes, and has another year under his belt in terms of development. His rebounding is slightly above Frye's last year even though he's playing about 5 more minutes than Frye did. Kieff is playing the same role as Frye also, starting PF and finishing C. Plumlee's rebounding has dipped by more than 2 a game last I checked and that's while playing about the same number of minutes. You'd think if our starting C's rebounding dips significantly that our starting PF might be picking up that slack but that's not the case. Kieff is barely grabbing more rebounds this year in an expanded role than he did as a reserve last year.

Amare & Frye were criticized heavily and constantly for being our starting power forwards or centers and only averaging about 6 rpg however everyone here seems to give Kieff a pass. I'd understand that if he was a force offensively like Amare or even spread the floor as much as Frye but he does neither. Extending the twins was a mistake, they should have let them hit restricted free agency and determine what it was worth for them to play together, which could have saved the Suns the potential problem if they decide to trade one of the two. Plus their value this year as trade assets would have been much higher than it is now since they're essentially overpaid reserves.

 

[slinslin]

Kieff is our best player, your analysis fails.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Kieff is not doing his job that well, I'm not sure why everyone seems to think he's great or even above average. He's not playing any better than he did last season even though he has an expanded role, more minutes, and has another year under his belt in terms of development. His rebounding is slightly above Frye's last year even though he's playing about 5 more minutes than Frye did. Kieff is playing the same role as Frye also, starting PF and finishing C. Plumlee's rebounding has dipped by more than 2 a game last I checked and that's while playing about the same number of minutes. You'd think if our starting C's rebounding dips significantly that our starting PF might be picking up that slack but that's not the case. Kieff is barely grabbing more rebounds this year in an expanded role than he did as a reserve last year.

Amare & Frye were criticized heavily and constantly for being our starting power forwards or centers and only averaging about 6 rpg however everyone here seems to give Kieff a pass. I'd understand that if he was a force offensively like Amare or even spread the floor as much as Frye but he does neither. Extending the twins was a mistake, they should have let them hit restricted free agency and determine what it was worth for them to play together, which could have saved the Suns the potential problem if they decide to trade one of the two. Plus their value this year as trade assets would have been much higher than it is now since they're essentially overpaid reserves.

They do? I see him ripped apart quite often. I agree he isn't a great rebounder. And I agree that far too much was made of Amare and Channing for their rebounding numbers. But right now, Markieff is averaging 7.5 rebounds per 36 minutes. That's not great but it's not really horrible. Especially if you factor in the time he stands 24 feet from the hoop pretending to be a stretch 4. Also, because of our weakness down low he gets very little protection.

He'll never be the offensive force that Amare was but like so many of our power forwards and centers, he's stuck doing it pretty much alone. I think he's a slightly better than average starting power forward and if he was in a traditional lineup playing next to a quality big man he'd be considered one of the better forwards in the game. We have a lot of problems but I just don't see him being one of them.

Steve

 

[BC867]

 

[95pro]

woa i never said Kieff was an all-star. just said he's doing enough to get his job done.

my dislikes are at center and sf. Len is coming along though.

 

[sunsfan88]

There really is no excuse for Len to not start and for Warren to not get playing time.

Suns get put into a deficit early because of Plumlee's ******* where he commits stupid fouls, turnovers or let's his guy beat him easily.

I'd rather watch Len foul out than Plumlee play like a mentally ill child. Like sometimes when I watch Plumlee play, there's tears coming down my cheeks because I feel bad for him because of how much he sucks.

One of the greatest basketball coaches of all time Mike Kryzyweski isn't surprised by any of this.

And Warren...he should be getting all of Tolliver's minutes plus some of Marcus minutes. I know Tolliver's played well lately but again, it's about player development.

Warren needs to be getting at least 20 mins every single game. Making the ACC Player of the Year the waterboy for the team while selfish players who do nothing but iso ball get playing time is a disgrace to Phoenix Suns basketball.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

Don't know where to post this, so I'll post it here!

An interesting development so far is that Len's #'s on the road are much better than at home. The sample size is still kind of small, but most young players play better at home, as opposed to the chaotic road environments. It's encouraging that road play doesn't seem to bother Len ...

Road: 12 g, 20.3 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 66% shooting
Home: 11 g, 16.5 mpg, 3.5 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 36% shooting

 

[Mainstreet]

Don't know where to post this, so I'll post it here!

An interesting development so far is that Len's #'s on the road are much better than at home. The sample size is still kind of small, but most young players play better at home, as opposed to the chaotic road environments. It's encouraging that road play doesn't seem to bother Len ...

Road: 12 g, 20.3 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 66% shooting
Home: 11 g, 16.5 mpg, 3.5 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 36% shooting

Although it doesn't matter a hoot, when the Joe Johnson first joined the Suns he shot better on the road than at home.

 

[BC867]

One word would describe Len at this time -- expectations.

The expectations are in Phoenix. The Phoenix fans. The Phoenix Press. The Phoenix front office.

It's not going to get easier for Alex, while both he and Plumlee are on the bench during the 2nd and 4th quarters. Not just the first 6 minutes but, more importantly, the final 6 minutes.

I think the New York Mouth -- Steve Albert -- jinxed Len with his Len-Sanity comments.

It's not only wrong, it's not original.

Edit: Back to the title of this thread. It looks like Ennis is back in street clothes. So much for the future.

 

[SirStefan32]

One word would describe Len at this time -- expectations.

The expectations are in Phoenix. The Phoenix fans. The Phoenix Press. The Phoenix front office.

It's not going to get easier for Alex, while both he and Plumlee are on the bench during the 2nd and 4th quarters. Not just the first 6 minutes but, more importantly, the final 6 minutes.

I think the New York Mouth -- Steve Albert -- jinxed Len with his Len-Sanity comments.

It's not only wrong, it's not original.

Edit: Back to the title of this thread. It looks like Ennis is back in street clothes. So much for the future.

I almost hate myself for thinking this, but wouldn't it be nice if Bledsoe and IT disappeared for 10 games or so, just to see what a normal lineup could do.

 

[BC867]

I almost hate myself for thinking this, but wouldn't it be nice if Bledsoe and IT disappeared for 10 games or so, just to see what a normal lineup could do.

The Suns have no chemistry, especially with the game on the line.

How could they, when the five players on the court could be any one of 25 different combinations? Maybe even more. It has been a long time since I took a course in statistics.

That is the danger of pitting three players against each other at every position every minute of every game. Would that make it any one of 125 different combinations?

Baseball may be an individual game played within a team concept.

Basketball is still a team sport. I dread the thought of turning on Jeff Hornacek, but he is not making it easy.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns have no chemistry, especially with the game on the line.

How could they, when the five players on the court could be any one of 25 different combinations? Maybe even more. It has been a long time since I took a course in statistics.

That is the danger of pitting three players against each other at every position every minute of every game. Would that make it any one of 125 different combinations?

Baseball may be an individual game played within a team concept.

Basketball is still a team sport. I dread the thought of turning on Jeff Hornacek, but he is not making it easy.

The Suns are not playing like a team. If changes are not made to improve the play of this team in one way or another, the ball will be in his court.

 

[95pro]

i'll say it again, but i think we need to have the first unit come off the court and have a second unit come in the game. maybe not the entire unit, but a majority of them depending on the match ups.

 

[Mainstreet]

I almost hate myself for thinking this, but wouldn't it be nice if Bledsoe and IT disappeared for 10 games or so, just to see what a normal lineup could do.

I do think the Suns would be better playing with one point guard on the court whether it be Dragic or Bledsoe. I see no problem if IT remains a backup PG. Obviously this would not fly with the players. I'd prefer to keep Dragic over Bledsoe if given a choice.