Diaw/Barbs - How did we get here?!

[Muggum]

Think back for a moment to the recent playoffs without Amare, where we beat both the Lakers and Clippers before succumbing to Dallas...

...and how over-the-moon we ended up that we were able to sign Barbosa as cheaply as we did. We were touting him as the greatest bargain in the NBA, and his game seemed to have nowhere to go but up. He single-handedly decimated the Lakers, putting a lifetime of wear on Deavan George's ankles in one game. His decision-making had improved tremedously. His three-point shot was deadly. He was routinely called the fastest player in the league. Dan D'Antoni was being hailed as a genius. He was routinely scoring 20 ppg off the bench.

And then Diaw... we practically set this board on fire demanding that the Suns sign him to a long term deal. He was playing like an absolute magician, flirting with triple doubles, bearing the scoring load in the post, always finding the open man when double-teamed, hitting the baseline turnaround to beat the Mavs, DUNKING over Nowitzki at the rim.

Now - in what seems like the blink of the eye - we're practically falling all overselves to fire-sell these guys. I'm not necessarily saying we should keep them, I'm just pointing out how suddenly and shockingly things seemed to turn around on us. I mean, what the hell?! It's hard to find many other examples of players regressing so thoroughly and depressingly.

The bummer to me is that if we do deal them now, we will have made the classic mistake of buying high and selling low.

I can understand Diaw's collapse more than I can Barbs'. Diaw always wore the tag of passive, that's why the Hawks didn't warm up to him. And once he landed the contract, it was croissant city. But Barbs... man, I'm just devastated. It's like Tim Duncan singlehandedly robbed him of his confidence to the point where he has no idea how to make a good decision on the court.

Argh.

 

[hafey]

The solution with Diaw is easy. Just give him the ball. The more he has the ball, the better, more aggressive Diaw plays. He is worth more to the Suns than any other team. I think they'd be foolish to trade him.

Barbosa on the other hand, Kerr would be foolish NOT to trade him.

 

[Chaplin]

People here are treating them both like they are cancers. Yes, they both have their problems, but there is no "fire sale" going on with them. I'm sure they're exploring it, but they certainly aren't desperate to offload them.

 

[TucsonDevil]

The more amazing turn of events was the first one, not this second time around. We should have been slow to react to Diaw's solid play in playoffs 2006. That was the anomaly, not the previous 3 years.

LB was signed to a deal that I still think is fair to the Suns and very attractive to others. LB is still a force off the bench, when scoring is needed. However, don't dare give him the offense, he can't handle the pressure. If the Suns want LB to just score off the bench and not handle the ball, he can still do that effectively. However, we have greater needs right now. Problem is, LB is seen as a help to those needs (backup PG, defensive stopper up top, etc), but he is actually the catalyst for total breakdown at those spots. LB is not needed on the Suns, and should be delt.

Diaw? Who in their right mind would want that guy at that price? I think the Suns are stuck with him, unless Kerr is better than another GM - by a country mile. Because their is a country mile between Diaw's value and his pay grade.

Give Diaw the ball and he can become effective? Maybe, but if that is the case, why do I see him pass that same ball out to the three-point line when he has backed down his undersized defender just 5 ft away from the rim? I can't pretend to know how one motivates him. Maybe put a restriction on Food in the Clubhouse/Team plane until he averages a triple double? Team rule that won't allow him to go 'clubbing' unless his previous 3 games were for double doubles?

Our only hope of getting rid of Diaw, is a packaged deal with LB. However, we are going to have to accept a stinker in return - crap for crap. But hopefully, it is expiring crap.

 

[nashman]

I don't think you have to get rid of Diaw, I for one am curious what Porter and his staff will do with him. Barbosa can be dealt if we can get something of need or a high draft pick for him.

 

[elindholm]

It's one of the great misconceptions of casual fans that you trade only players you don't like.

 

[Rab]

I'm not really excited about the possibility of trading LB. Overall, he's a great player to have on your team. He's a good character guy, he comes a relatively great price, and he's the sparkplug a lot of team would want coming off the bench.

I don't know if it was because he just lost his way when Shaq came in, or his knee problem kept him from doing what he usually does, or if he just plain had a bad year, he wasn't the same this year. Unfortunately, if the Suns are going to fill a need, they're going to have to give up something of value in return. He is probably our most valuable trading commodity when you consider talent and contact. I can't see Amare or Nash going anywhere. We have no expirers to offer until next year.

If the Suns are able to fill a hole, then I'd be okay with dealing Barbosa elsewhere.

 

[AfroSuns]

Those 2 may have their problem but the way they are being blamed on this board make it seem like they are to blame for our woeful exit.

Yes, Barbosa sucks as a PG so why give him that kinda responsibility, we know he is still a lethal offense off the bench, still came second to Ginobili for 6th man award after winning it last season. We are also quick to forget this dude his injured for most part of the second half of the season. I doubt he has ever had a real Defensive minded coach, the way i see it, he was groomed for what he does best; offense. Why not give him a chance with a good defensive coach (not just Dan D) and lets see what he can do.

Fair weather fans are quick to say get rid of them only to turn around next season and blame management for not getting a good replacement. Any player can be traded but some deals proposed in some threads here just don't make sense.

 

[Mainstreet]

IMO, it's pretty simple if you look at how the Suns are left without significant trading chips to improve their team. Selling and trading draft picks for money (or to save money) has left the Suns old and lacking a bench.

 

[jandaman]

I actually like to keep Diaw, I KNOW that with the proper role on the offensive end, he is a Lamar Odom type... obviously not as big. But he can give you 16~18 points a game, 7~8 rebounds 5~7 assists. Given the touches.

But the thing is, no one here wants to part with Stoudemire, and it has shown that when Diaw plays well... Stoudemire disappears, when Stoudemire dominates... Diaw disappears...

Yes we are HOPING Porter can implement both, BUT something tells me its mentally with Diaw, he will not be aggressive when Stoudemire is aggressive... its like he sacrifices his game for Stoudemire... and if you make him the main facilitator... then what happens to Nash????






Barbosa, I say trade because you have a greater need in finding either a back up BIG or a back up PG.... If the Suns had their pick(s) then you wouldnt need to trade him... but the Suns have greater needs...

 

[SirStefan32]

and if you make him the main facilitator... then what happens to Nash????

Stand at the 3 point line and wait for an open shot. Could also cut to the hoop. If you're open, Dirty Diaw will find you.

 

[nowagimp]

IMO, Diaw and barbs both were hurt by the jettisoning of TT, House. When the suns put TT(and to a lesser extent house) on the perimeter, the lane opened up bigtime. The spacing that was lost with the loss of TT led to lousy driving lanes in the opposing defenses. this hurt Diaw at the elbow and LB driving from the perimeter. Pairing Diaw with grant hill or shaq, closed up Diaws operation room at the elbow. Now diaw operates from the low post, but that does not take advantage of his speed off the dribble at his size. Who is responsible for these screwups? The whole gang, griffin,Dantoni, Sarver, etc. Then Kerr comes along last year and makes things worse by dealing KT, JR + picks. Now the 3pt shooting is really sparse. Watching House in the finals was very interesting. In spite of Eddies poor ball handling, and mediocre defense(with KG there not too damaging), he was a force in creating the spacing the celtics needed for Pierce, allen to run wild on the lakers. I remember thinking when amare came back how great the spacing would be for amare with TT taking a big man outside, then the suns jetisoned TT and overpaid for marcus banks, ughhh! I dreamed of amare and Diaw taking turns operating at the elbow with TT banging down the 3's when the defense tried to collapse into the lane. Often in basketball complementary pieces are critical, and the suns just screwed up the pieces after that year.

 

[Mainstreet]

IMO, Diaw and barbs both were hurt by the jettisoning of TT, House. When the suns put TT(and to a lesser extent house) on the perimeter, the lane opened up bigtime. The spacing that was lost with the loss of TT led to lousy driving lanes in the opposing defenses. this hurt Diaw at the elbow and LB driving from the perimeter. Pairing Diaw with grant hill or shaq, closed up Diaws operation room at the elbow. Now diaw operates from the low post, but that does not take advantage of his speed off the dribble at his size. Who is responsible for these screwups? The whole gang, griffin,Dantoni, Sarver, etc. Then Kerr comes along last year and makes things worse by dealing KT, JR + picks. Now the 3pt shooting is really sparse. Watching House in the finals was very interesting. In spite of Eddies poor ball handling, and mediocre defense(with KG there not too damaging), he was a force in creating the spacing the celtics needed for Pierce, allen to run wild on the lakers. I remember thinking when amare came back how great the spacing would be for amare with TT taking a big man outside, then the suns jetisoned TT and overpaid for marcus banks, ughhh! I dreamed of amare and Diaw taking turns operating at the elbow with TT banging down the 3's when the defense tried to collapse into the lane. Often in basketball complementary pieces are critical, and the suns just screwed up the pieces after that year.

It's sad because the Suns have made so many mistakes in recent years, one could right a novel about it. I guess I would start with the Iggy/Deng draft and work my way forward.

 

[Irish]

It's one of the great misconceptions of casual fans that you trade only players you don't like.

I fear that guys like Chad Ford reinforce that attitute.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draf...olumnist=ford_chad&page=Drafttradetalk-080618

The Phoenix Suns have put Leandro Barbosa and Boris Diaw on the table in attempts to either move up in the draft or secure another veteran to play alongside Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire and Shaquille O'Neal.


"I think our needs are pretty clear," one Suns insider told ESPN.com. "We can't ask Grant Hill to play 40 minutes a night, and Barbosa isn't really a point guard."

Who is this unnamed "insider"? Why is someone who is supposedly really in the know going out of the way to depress the value of these guys? If I'm Kerr, I track down the source and have this person fired.

The part about the Suns needs is hardly a secret, but I think there is a 3 to 1 probability that both guys are with the team at training camp. Why poison the well? Considering all the angst generated by discussions including Marion for these past several years, you'd think they'd be extra careful. My conclusion is that Ford's source is not an insider or any better informed that anyone else.

 

[jandaman]

Its an assumption from general fans I think.

Ford has internet access, reads articles and gathers information all day... heck I can post an article and put quotes and then put "- Team insider" at the end. Technically no one can get in trouble.... No names.

 

[Irish]

Back to Brois and Leandro, I am inclined to blame some of ther problems on D'Antoni. I don't know what he was telling his guys to do, but unless they were refusing to change I'd have to think they were following orders.

What is worse, they may not have been given clear instructions. For example, if Boris was told to dunk when inclose, then he should have been benched when kicking out. If was told to kick out to a non-three point shooter, then it's the coaches fault. If he wasn't told what to do when... then it is still the coaches fault.

IMHO, Boris should not be used inside very much. He's too small, not strong enough, and perhaps a bit intimidated by the guys he's playing against. I like him in spots and against certain opponents, but he's not an inside player and it makes him look bad.

Ironically, it took two seasons for D'Antoni to figure out that Diaw was just a great post up small forward. Unfortunately, having wings post up was just not part of D'Antoni's game plan. What is phrase, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting differnt results".

In some cases the only way to get a player's attention is to bench him and play someone else. But D'Antoni saw to it that only eight guys play, so threats to bench a guy is hollow.

Would Boris have been better playin SF most of the time? Who knows? But doing what they were doing wasn't working. But now we have to decide if it's just Boris doesn't play hard or if he was just out of position.

How many times have we heard "Leandro just isn't a point guard"? If you compare him to Nash, the answer is "not even close". But excpet for Chris Paul, who is?

The most obvious issue with Leandro was that he did not run the pick and roll. Everyone knew that. Yet everytime he'g get isolated on the wing, someone would come over and try to set a pick, thus dragging another defender into the area.

Why? Leandro has an extremely quick first step and can get buy most defnenders. But rather than run isolaiton plays, the other players continued to act like Nash had the ball. Logic suggests that Leandro should have been practicing drive and kick over and over until it iss automatic as it is for Diaw. So why was he constantly taking well defensed shots down low? What was D'Antoni doing about it?

Running isolation plays is a totally differnt style. Much of it involves doing drive and kick plays to exploit the help defender. Improving Leandro's drive and kick off the isolation play would force opponents to back off to keep him out of the paint. But instead, there would be pick players pulling in defenders and disrupting his play.

On defense, Leandro continues to gamble too much and not pick his spots. Was he given adequate training in techmque and team defense.

In other threads, I've suggested that more of the ball handling be performed by Hill or Diaw as a point forward. If Leandro can't play standard PG, then design the offense to include a point forward to run it. But while D'Antoni had these guys in, the offense wasn't really adjusted.

I don't know if Porter can fix these issues, but I'd like to see him try before giving up on two talented players. Obviously if a great offer comes along, they should take it. But giving up on them due to D'Antoni is a bad idea.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Its an assumption from general fans I think.

Ford has internet access, reads articles and gathers information all day... heck I can post an article and put quotes and then put "- Team insider" at the end. Technically no one can get in trouble.... No names.

He has to reveal his sources to his editor or they dont get published. His editor must approve the legitimacy of the sources, and then they decide on "source" "insiders" "expert" "rumor is" "talk" etc etc

For rumors, you only need to single source from a legit newsmaker, for reports, you have to have a minimum of double sourcing.

Those are the standards and I doubt ESPN veers far from it.

 

[nowagimp]

Back to Brois and Leandro, I am inclined to blame some of ther problems on D'Antoni. I don't know what he was telling his guys to do, but unless they were refusing to change I'd have to think they were following orders.

What is worse, they may not have been given clear instructions. For example, if Boris was told to dunk when inclose, then he should have been benched when kicking out. If was told to kick out to a non-three point shooter, then it's the coaches fault. If he wasn't told what to do when... then it is still the coaches fault.

IMHO, Boris should not be used inside very much. He's too small, not strong enough, and perhaps a bit intimidated by the guys he's playing against. I like him in spots and against certain opponents, but he's not an inside player and it makes him look bad.

Ironically, it took two seasons for D'Antoni to figure out that Diaw was just a great post up small forward. Unfortunately, having wings post up was just not part of D'Antoni's game plan. What is phrase, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting differnt results".

In some cases the only way to get a player's attention is to bench him and play someone else. But D'Antoni saw to it that only eight guys play, so threats to bench a guy is hollow.

Would Boris have been better playin SF most of the time? Who knows? But doing what they were doing wasn't working. But now we have to decide if it's just Boris doesn't play hard or if he was just out of position.

How many times have we heard "Leandro just isn't a point guard"? If you compare him to Nash, the answer is "not even close". But excpet for Chris Paul, who is?

The most obvious issue with Leandro was that he did not run the pick and roll. Everyone knew that. Yet everytime he'g get isolated on the wing, someone would come over and try to set a pick, thus dragging another defender into the area.

Why? Leandro has an extremely quick first step and can get buy most defnenders. But rather than run isolaiton plays, the other players continued to act like Nash had the ball. Logic suggests that Leandro should have been practicing drive and kick over and over until it iss automatic as it is for Diaw. So why was he constantly taking well defensed shots down low? What was D'Antoni doing about it?

Running isolation plays is a totally differnt style. Much of it involves doing drive and kick plays to exploit the help defender. Improving Leandro's drive and kick off the isolation play would force opponents to back off to keep him out of the paint. But instead, there would be pick players pulling in defenders and disrupting his play.

On defense, Leandro continues to gamble too much and not pick his spots. Was he given adequate training in techmque and team defense.

In other threads, I've suggested that more of the ball handling be performed by Hill or Diaw as a point forward. If Leandro can't play standard PG, then design the offense to include a point forward to run it. But while D'Antoni had these guys in, the offense wasn't really adjusted.

I don't know if Porter can fix these issues, but I'd like to see him try before giving up on two talented players. Obviously if a great offer comes along, they should take it. But giving up on them due to D'Antoni is a bad idea.

No offense Irish, but where have you been?

DAntoni didnt just discover Boris as a post up SF, he beat Dallas in the WCF with the post up on the final play of a game. WTF would DA set that designed play up for if he didnt know Boris was a good post up guy at SF?

And the opponents strategy against LB was to force him off the 3pt line and have a big waiting at the hoop so he would have trouble finishing. then they would play the "kick" passing lanes and take the ball away. They wanted to force him to take a pull up shot, which he wasnt good at, or try the kick, which they had defended. He got better this past year on the pullup, but his shot relese point is too easy to block for a 6' 3" guy.

then yougo on to suggest that Hill or Diaw function as point forwards. Are you kidding, have you watched any games? Hill was the playmaker when Nash sat this past year, not LB.

Its easy to see tht Boris tendency not to finish at the rim eats up the clock on the way to another very predictable pass. With a short bench WTF is the coach supposed to do sit him to punish him and make it shorter? If you are a player and you know the coach is shortening a short bench even more and you lose, you will lose respect for the coach. Some posters here wouldnt last one week as a coach in a league where players get rid of coaches by not listening to them. I suppose he could sit Boris(who he did yell at for kicking out if you watched the games), and then sit amare for not playing D, then sit LB for stupid passes. Then he could start marks and pike, that would show those players.

Sometimes you come up with some pretty incredible statements, sounds like NBA coaches are morons, they would have never though of that. Im afraid the game is on a much higher level that you give it credit for. Yeah POPs outcoached DAntoni, but none of your points here would change that, at all. POPs is probably the best coach int he NBA, he outsmarts alot of other coaches, but that doesnt make them stupid.

 

[Muggum]

Interestingly, I would argue that Diaw is the best back-to-the-basket post player to play for the Suns since Barkley. He's pretty crazy effective there. He shone against San Antonio like no other on our team.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

He "shone" it for two games in the entire season. I dont find that interesting, I call it

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[nowagimp]

Interestingly, I would argue that Diaw is the best back-to-the-basket post player to play for the Suns since Barkley. He's pretty crazy effective there. He shone against San Antonio like no other on our team.

He doesnt finish at the rim on the dribble penetration at times when he should, but with his back to the basket he has a ton of moves, best on the team, which makes it even funnier to suggest that the coach didnt know it. LOL

 

[LV-Suns]

then yougo on to suggest that Hill or Diaw function as point forwards. Are you kidding, have you watched any games? Hill was the playmaker when Nash sat this past year, not LB.

LB was our primary backup playmaker last year. It wasn't Hill.

 

[Irish]

No offense Irish, but where have you been?

DAntoni didnt just discover Boris as a post up SF, he beat Dallas in the WCF with the post up on the final play of a game. WTF would DA set that designed play up for if he didnt know Boris was a good post up guy at SF?

The key to Boris is that he posts up smaller guys and tries to get to the basket on bigs. By playing him on the inside, this limited Boris to post up when there was a switch.

By moving Boris to SF in games 4 and 5, he was able to post up every play rather than off switches. This was the "discovery" that everyone but D'Antoni seemed to realize.

And the opponents strategy against LB was to force him off the 3pt line and have a big waiting at the hoop so he would have trouble finishing. then they would play the "kick" passing lanes and take the ball away. They wanted to force him to take a pull up shot, which he wasnt good at, or try the kick, which they had defended. He got better this past year on the pullup, but his shot relese point is too easy to block for a 6' 3" guy.

It is true that Leandro did not do pull ups and runners very often (which makes me wonder why the coaching staff didn't work with him on it), but IMHO the absence of kick outs was not due to brilliant defense but that Leandro seemed to think he could always beat his man to the basket.

then yougo on to suggest that Hill or Diaw function as point forwards. Are you kidding, have you watched any games? Hill was the playmaker when Nash sat this past year, not LB.

I've seen point forward offenses and frankly this did not look like a point forward offense.

Its easy to see tht Boris tendency not to finish at the rim eats up the clock on the way to another very predictable pass. With a short bench WTF is the coach supposed to do sit him to punish him and make it shorter? If you are a player and you know the coach is shortening a short bench even more and you lose, you will lose respect for the coach. Some posters here wouldnt last one week as a coach in a league where players get rid of coaches by not listening to them. I suppose he could sit Boris(who he did yell at for kicking out if you watched the games), and then sit amare for not playing D, then sit LB for stupid passes. Then he could start marks and pike, that would show those players.

Since you appear to be inadvertently reinforcing my point, I'll just leave that alone.

Sometimes you come up with some pretty incredible statements, sounds like NBA coaches are morons, they would have never though of that. Im afraid the game is on a much higher level that you give it credit for. Yeah POPs outcoached DAntoni, but none of your points here would change that, at all. POPs is probably the best coach int he NBA, he outsmarts alot of other coaches, but that doesnt make them stupid.

Stupid? Hardly. Stubborn? Absolutely.

D'Antoni's half court offense is very unstructured. With Nash on the floor it is very hard to prepare for. But wihtout Nash, their offense was simply not very good. Putting in a definable half court system such as a high post variation of the Kings system of a few years ago (when Porter was an assistant). It was not a PG driven system. It was something I've suggested for several years and I'm not alone. Either you get a PG suited to the offense or you revise the offense to fit the personel. But trying to run an offense with someone ill suited for it was just a receipe for failure

In any case, it doesn't really matter if my diagnosis is completely accurate. My primary point is that we tend to blame Boris and Leandro without considering that it may not be entirely their fault. So if they get traded, it should be because the Suns get a lot in return, rather than just because of some issues we have with those two.

 

[Chaplin]

Perhaps that was one of D'Antoni's biggest failings: Not letting Grant Hill or Boris Diaw actually be a point forward, especially after Shaq's arrival. Diaw I can understand, considering he plays a power position, but Grant Hill should have been a great option for running the offense and D'Antoni just didn't use him that way. The question is, why? Is it because D'Antoni didn't want to? Didn't know how to? Maybe Grant didn't want to? Or maybe he was too old to do it anymore? He certainly didn't have the speed to tear down the court like Nash, but our backup PG doesn't necessarily have to do that.

 

[SirStefan32]

Either you get a PG suited to the offense or you revise the offense to fit the personel. But trying to run an offense with someone ill suited for it was just a receipe for failure

Exactly!!!!!