Diaw/Barbs - How did we get here?!

[Irish]

When I first joined this board there was a lot of criticims of Marion's defense. Marion gambled too much, he tended to hop rather than slide his feet when trying to stay in front of his guy, etc. Some of his improvement was overstated, but he did improve quite a bit. IMHO Marion is not the brightest buld on the Christmas tree (his continued threat to opt out of his contract is not the work of a genius), so I keep thinking maybe the coaches actually helped Shawn improve.

When considering whether a guy CAN improve on defense, the first thing to consider is whether he is physically able. I think the answer is is YES. What Leandro brings to the table is:

- Very Athletic
- Very quick
- Long arms
- Acceptable strength
- Good attitude.

Lst's face it, the only thing in this list Nash has is a good attitude. He plays as hard as he can and as smart as he can - but Nash is not physically able to be even an average defender. Barbosa is physically able.

It is up to the coaching staff to get through to him on what it is going to take.

 

[sunsallday]

well nash is really a offensive pg, his strengths make up for his weaknesses.

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin,


No you are right we don't know, but I do think any assumptions should be based on past history and not a romantic view that Boris will suddenly morph from a soft inconsistent player because of a new coach. Any tactical or mental changes to Diaw will be temporary if we are relying on the coach to do it for him. I see it at work there are people that bust their ass and people who don't and post on ASFN all day. Sure the man may walk by once in a while but as soon he is gone, posting time. BTW I am just kidding posting on the internet is important.

See, to me that reasoning is flawed. If we should base things on past history, why did we even trade for Boris in the first place? He did NOTHING for the Hawks before we got him. So on one hand, yes, you have to look at his past disappearing acts, but it's not the end-all and be-all when you have a new coach, and a different system coming in.

 

[Mainstreet]

Barbosa's deficiencies do not bother me because his main skill is shooting and slashing, take the ball out of his hands and let him spot up or slash off the ball PERIOD. I was really pissed about how bad he played last year, but after thinking about it he will be back in force next season, he is not a point guard. I like the fact he is basically lying to the brazillian media about his knee injury to stay in Phoenix that has shown me enough to believe he will work on his game in the off season with real coaches...

On this part we really agree. This is where Barbosa shines. He needs to be fed the ball to shoot or slash to be most effective. It seems even bringing the ball up the court messes with his head. I believe LB could be just outstanding if he just stuck to shooting (especially the 3) and slashing.

 

[nowagimp]

I do think he can become acceptable on defense if the team plays better team D. Individual deficiencies are always magnified when you play on a bad defensive team, while when you have a good defensive system, even below-average defenders aren't that much of a liability (no one seemed to complain about House's defense in Boston, for instance).

Yeah, house wasnt much of a liability with KG, PJ, Perkins roaming the lane area. This is where IMO alot of people both overestimate and underestimage defenders. Bruce Bowen can overplay his man much as shaun marion did and not worry about being beat off the dribble, because Tim Duncan was in behind him in the event that his man beat him off the dribble. Marion never had such a luxury, quite the opposite. With the suns, if your man beats you off the dribble amare would play that matador defense trying to avoid foul trouble, or get into foul trouble(worse). Eddie house was a serious liability with the suns but not the celtics. Steve Nashs defensive deficiencies are magnified by the suns interior defensive deficiencies. Same when he was on the Mavs, the mavs had a terrible interior defense, no shot blocker at all. If nash was on the celtics, no one would care about his defense with KG backing him up. Rondo is away better defender than house, but Doc put House in at the end of games in the finals for spacing/shooting, knowing that KG/Perkins would take care of business defensively in the lane if eddies man got past him. Barbs would be fine on a team that had a good defensive interior. I expect the blazers know this and cant blame them if they were interested in stealing him in a "good deal".

 

[Irish]

Yeah, house wasnt much of a liability with KG, PJ, Perkins roaming the lane area. This is where IMO alot of people both overestimate and underestimage defenders. Bruce Bowen can overplay his man much as shaun marion did and not worry about being beat off the dribble, because Tim Duncan was in behind him in the event that his man beat him off the dribble. Marion never had such a luxury, quite the opposite. With the suns, if your man beats you off the dribble amare would play that matador defense trying to avoid foul trouble, or get into foul trouble(worse). Eddie house was a serious liability with the suns but not the celtics. Steve Nashs defensive deficiencies are magnified by the suns interior defensive deficiencies. Same when he was on the Mavs, the mavs had a terrible interior defense, no shot blocker at all. If nash was on the celtics, no one would care about his defense with KG backing him up. Rondo is away better defender than house, but Doc put House in at the end of games in the finals for spacing/shooting, knowing that KG/Perkins would take care of business defensively in the lane if eddies man got past him. Barbs would be fine on a team that had a good defensive interior. I expect the blazers know this and cant blame them if they were interested in stealing him in a "good deal".

I'm not a big AJ fan, but I give him credit for significantly improving the Mav's team defense of a Mavs team with some very poor individual defenders.
Here is their opponent shooting percentages:

2003-04 45.9%
2004-05 43.8%
2005-06 44.3%
2006-07 44.7%
2007-08 44.3%

Getting those numbers with Dirk and Terry in the lineup is actually quite impressive. Some of the improvement came wen they acquired Dampier, but he averaged just 27.3 minutes a game. Van Horn was on the team in the last half of 2004-05 and in 2005-06. In short, the scheme and a defensive emphasisi was crucial to their improvemnt.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Well, I'll take that as you admitting your view was wrong. That's what happens when you make assumptions based on what you think you know about another country.

Actually, you're probably surprised at how I'm even capable of using a computer, being from a third-world country and all...


Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread. Barbosa's strenghts and weaknesses are well known, and I don't think they're going to change much throughout his career. He's always going to be a fast player and a solid three-point shooter. He'll probably never become a fundamentally sound defender, because I don't think his basketball IQ will ever allow that. I do think he can become acceptable on defense if the team plays better team D. Individual deficiencies are always magnified when you play on a bad defensive team, while when you have a good defensive system, even below-average defenders aren't that much of a liability (no one seemed to complain about House's defense in Boston, for instance).

My view is apt to change whenever I damn well feel like it.

I really think is Barbosa is one of those people that dislikes change, he also is mentally soft, Dan Dan was like a mommy for years and now that he is gone there is no buffer and no one to protect his tender feelings anymore.

So the Suns are now likely playing harder with him and letting it be known, "Hey if you want to stay here, put in the time." Thanks to Arturo and his stick, Leandro takes direction well and I think that's a positive, so in essence I do believe I overestimated Leandro's feelings for Brazil and underestimated his desire to be a real pro, now I just think he wants to stay in Phoenix and preserve whatever he thinks is so great about playing for the Suns.

I got nothing against Brazil, I also know people have wealth everywhere, I have seen poor villages in China and cities like Shanghai that make Phoenix look like a trailer park, but we all know Leandro was living the third world and we also know if the Brazilian ladies see Leandro in the bar, game over.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Well, I'll take that as you admitting your view was wrong. That's what happens when you make assumptions based on what you think you know about another country.

Actually, you're probably surprised at how I'm even capable of using a computer, being from a third-world country and all...


Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread. Barbosa's strenghts and weaknesses are well known, and I don't think they're going to change much throughout his career. He's always going to be a fast player and a solid three-point shooter. He'll probably never become a fundamentally sound defender, because I don't think his basketball IQ will ever allow that. I do think he can become acceptable on defense if the team plays better team D. Individual deficiencies are always magnified when you play on a bad defensive team, while when you have a good defensive system, even below-average defenders aren't that much of a liability (no one seemed to complain about House's defense in Boston, for instance).

That made me lol.

I didnt know Brazilians had mastered the art of sarcasm!

 

[nowagimp]

I'm not a big AJ fan, but I give him credit for significantly improving the Mav's team defense of a Mavs team with some very poor individual defenders.
Here is their opponent shooting percentages:

2003-04 45.9%
2004-05 43.8%
2005-06 44.3%
2006-07 44.7%
2007-08 44.3%

Getting those numbers with Dirk and Terry in the lineup is actually quite impressive. Some of the improvement came wen they acquired Dampier, but he averaged just 27.3 minutes a game. Van Horn was on the team in the last half of 2004-05 and in 2005-06. In short, the scheme and a defensive emphasisi was crucial to their improvemnt.

The mavs had no shot blocker at all in 03-04, Dirk was their big man defender, ughhh! Then they went out and got 2 guys who could bother shots or take up space in the middle on defense(dampier(05), Diop(06)). I thought they were at their best with Diop the shot blocker in the middle. the mavs defensive woes had more to do with tryiny to use dirk in the middle than nash at PG, that was a joke. This period also coincided with the emergence of Josh Howard in the rotation, from being a 23mpg rook to starter at 40 mins. I cant say it was averys scheme as you put Diop in at center and howard at the SF and you instantly have better defense. Also during this time Dirk bulked up a little and became a better defender, no kidding he's actually pretty good now. Perhaps you can give avery credit for Dirks development.

 

[Irish]

If you can iso on Dirk, it is a clear path. He just cannot move his feet and is not much good on the low post. He must be doing something hugely differnt in games not against the Suns because it seemed like they were totally dependent on help defense.

The problems the Mavs had with Dampier and Diop was that they are not good on offense. Generally teams could defend five on four, which was a recurring problem for their scoring.

In any case, my conclusion is that their improvement was signficiantly a result of much better help defense.