Except that the 40+ crowd is unanimous.
Do you believe the Baroids HR record is tainted?
- Thread starter 82CardsGrad
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Cardinal Bob
Glutton for Punishment
Of course it's tainted...I mean, unless you think Game Of Shadows is a complete work of fiction, how can it not be tainted?
crisper57
Open the Roof!
I hate Bonds, but I also hate the fact that he is being singled-out at this time. My brother played in the minor leagues. He said alot of players coming out of the Dominican Republic seemed to be on HGH. He also guessed that 80% of the players in the Bigs had been on steroids at some point. I have several friends, both currently and formerly in MLB, that quietly say the same thing. Bonds is a product of his era. It sucks, but that is a fact.
The vast majority of minor-league prospects that are suspended for steroids are pitchers. The ratio is something like 9-to-1.
Pitchers like Prior and Gagne had pitch velocities that peaked during the height of the steroids era. After severe injuries, they returned to a cleaner game with significantly lower velocities.
It sucks that more people aren't making a big deal about the pitchers that cheat. It's become all about the big power hitters of the era.
Still, Bonds sucks.
The vast majority of minor-league prospects that are suspended for steroids are pitchers. The ratio is something like 9-to-1.
Pitchers like Prior and Gagne had pitch velocities that peaked during the height of the steroids era. After severe injuries, they returned to a cleaner game with significantly lower velocities.
It sucks that more people aren't making a big deal about the pitchers that cheat. It's become all about the big power hitters of the era.
Still, Bonds sucks.
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OP
OP
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Just about... Thus far, 44 total votes broken down as follows:
29 & under: 19 voted
12 yes
7 no
30-39: 16 voted
10 yes
6 no
40 & Above: 9 voted
8 yes
1 no
My point was that age is a correlation to how you feel about Bonds' HR record. I think that point has been proven...
Gila Monster
Newbie
I guess the nearly 3,000 hits, 9 Gold Gloves, .444 career on base percentage, a .298 batting average, 500 stolen bases and over 500 homers BEFORE the steroids supposedly began weren't God Given either.
I know it's currently the popular unanimous thought to crap on Bonds because he's not a "nice guy" but if you look at his home run numbers from 1993, his last season in Pittsburgh, to 2000, one year before he hit 73, the numbers he put up in terms of home runs were all around the same plateau. In fact, in his career, only 2001 was a season that would have made you raise your eyebrows and wonder what's up.
I guess we can say then if it all begins and ends with if steroids weren't used that Roger Maris is still holding the single season home run mark, and perhaps.. Gulp.. The 2001 World Series needs to be investigated too because a suspected steroid user hit the game winning hit.
Also, in the tight spotlight that has been these steroid tests, how exactly has Bonds managed to pass all of his steroid tests thus far? Trust me when I tell you, there's few in this sport who were more watched over than him.
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BC867
Long time Phoenician!
'Couldn't go by that one. A career .444 BA?
I think your support of the Spoiled One is a bit too extreme.
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Brian
PANEM ET CIRCENSES
The question was "Is the Home Run record tainted?" and that's what I was answering with my post. It wasn't "Is his career tainted?"
I've already said in other posts that he had enough ability that he didn't need to start taking them and he probably would have been a lock for the HOF anyway.
Brian
PANEM ET CIRCENSES
'Couldn't that go by that one. A career .444 BA?
I think your support of the Spoiled One is a bit too extreme.
Yeah, I kinda scratched my head at that one too.
Gila Monster
Newbie
Excuse me, .444 On Base Percentage, career batting average of .298.
Also, I don't support Bonds, I just don't believe in reciting the same crap the national media shovels down our throat and hate on Bonds because it's the popular thing to do.
Also, I don't support Bonds, I just don't believe in reciting the same crap the national media shovels down our throat and hate on Bonds because it's the popular thing to do.
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
I respect your opinion . . . but he acted like an a$$hole when he was at Arizona State, long before he was a Major Leaguer.
And he has been less than forthright about his use of steroids. That's why the perception is what it is.
"Kill the messenger that brings the bad news" should be ancient history.
Cheating should neither be encouraged nor condoned.
And no one shoved that down my throat. It's what I'd like kids across the country to believe.
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I think it's tainted but I also think lots of records are too.
Case in point, HOF no doubt but Cal Ripken Jr's games played record was extremely selfish and hurt the team every year. There have been reams of studies done that showed how Ripken almost like clockwork annually faded in August and September. It was easy to say he wasn't tired or he was still better than his backup but most of the studies show that by the time the slide was complete he was actually performing at a worse clip than his backup.
If he'd taken off 8-10 games a year and got more rest, he possibly could have avoided the annual slide and helped his team win more games. But he was locked in on the record and who in their right mind as manager was going to dare suggest he sit out a game?
Wasn't as bad as what Bonds did but just one example of another record that I consider a bit dubious.
A similar deal was Pete Rose as player manager starting himself and batting himself 2nd with better players on the bench (think one year it was Gary Redus). He did it for one reason, he wanted the hits record, and figured batting 2nd was the best way to max out his AB's.
Case in point, HOF no doubt but Cal Ripken Jr's games played record was extremely selfish and hurt the team every year. There have been reams of studies done that showed how Ripken almost like clockwork annually faded in August and September. It was easy to say he wasn't tired or he was still better than his backup but most of the studies show that by the time the slide was complete he was actually performing at a worse clip than his backup.
If he'd taken off 8-10 games a year and got more rest, he possibly could have avoided the annual slide and helped his team win more games. But he was locked in on the record and who in their right mind as manager was going to dare suggest he sit out a game?
Wasn't as bad as what Bonds did but just one example of another record that I consider a bit dubious.
A similar deal was Pete Rose as player manager starting himself and batting himself 2nd with better players on the bench (think one year it was Gary Redus). He did it for one reason, he wanted the hits record, and figured batting 2nd was the best way to max out his AB's.
PHXSportsFan4
Time for baseball season.
No... I could take sterioids and probably still not be able to hit a baseball out of a MLB park. You still have to be a great hitter and still have to hit the ball just right for a HR. Nothing has been proven. He may have taken sterioids but what if he really is innocent?
Gila Monster
Newbie
Thank you.. My point and sentiments exactly.
Gila Monster
Newbie
I also will once again throw out the question-- with people failing these steroid tests left and right, and with Bonds being Public Target #1 in this Witch Hunt, how has he managed to pass every single MLB sanctioned test thus far? Surely not by luck..
Yes, Bonds is an cornholio. No ifs ands or buts about it. The guy was a pompous fool from the day he stepped foot on a baseball field.
As for him being less than forthright, other than him refusing to comment, probably because he's sick of the same barrage of questions from the media, I've heard him only say that he'll take any administered test that the sport of baseball has to offer.
Trust me, I'm no Bonds fan. Far from it. However, there's just a lot of crap about this whole witch hunt that to me stinks out loud.
Yes, Bonds is an cornholio. No ifs ands or buts about it. The guy was a pompous fool from the day he stepped foot on a baseball field.
As for him being less than forthright, other than him refusing to comment, probably because he's sick of the same barrage of questions from the media, I've heard him only say that he'll take any administered test that the sport of baseball has to offer.
Trust me, I'm no Bonds fan. Far from it. However, there's just a lot of crap about this whole witch hunt that to me stinks out loud.
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No one (at least no one who knows anything about baseball) would say the barry is not a great baseball player. He has something like 7 gold gloves and 10+ all star games and i dont know how many mvp's. Very good. The question is the record tainted? He used steroids, that's not a question, it's fact. He cheated and claimed ignorance about it, and now his trainer is sitting in prison because he took the hit for barry. I think Barry owes him a big ol' hug.
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DWKB
ASFN Icon
Little things like calling Anderson his agent really takes away any reason anyone should believe you know the facts of this issue.
Since Andersen appears to do Bonds' bidding, maybe it isn't so far fetched to call him Bonds' agent, in an agent/principle sort of way.
Brian
PANEM ET CIRCENSES
So, if that's the case then why did he take them? To use the arguement "nothing has been proven" is pointless. He did. To say otherwise is sticking one's head in the sand to the extreme. There is far too much evidence saying otherwise. So much so, that I'm not going to discuss it other than to say he has admitted to "unknowingly" taking them and that to this day there still isn't a test given to detect HGH. So for Barry to say "I've never failed a drug test" is the lamest excuse ever.
As far as the home runs are concerned? No, they ALONE won't help you hit a ball out. I don't want to be Captain Obvious here, but eye-hand coordination, pitch selection, a short compact swing, etc all play a part. Some players have those abilities, but not the STRENGTH to muscle the ball 450 ft.
Player A has Barry's hitting ability but not Barry's strength. He hit's a ball 300 feet.
Barry (pre-steroids) hits the same ball 300 feet.
Barry (post-steroids) hits the same ball 400 feet.
So I ask again: If they didn't help, then why did Barry, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Canseco, etc do them?
Because they do help. It's an advantage Aaron didn't have. It's called cheating, and the record is tainted.
Steriods didn't give Barry 100 feet. 25, 40 maybe. Not 100. It just makes all the warning tracks turn into HRs and the Homers turn into Holy crap...he beat the hell out of that ones.
The reason these guys did them is because a 10 percent increase, at least, turns warning track shots into definite homers.
Not condoning it or anything, but it isn't like Roids made the guy a hitter, or gave him unbelievable distance. It took his already HOF-caliber game and elevated it to what it is now.
Didn't Aaron take greenies? They are just as performance enhancing as roids.
The record is tainted? Yeah, you are right. But all of MLB is tainted, and their drug policy is a joke and has been for years. It has recently gone from being ridiculous to a joke, so that's some progress. Honestly, the total farce that is the MLB's governing team 9s a big reason why I remain a very casual baseball fan. Too much crap in the game for me to actually give a damn.
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Brian
PANEM ET CIRCENSES
That's exactly what I was saying, but I was guilty of doing what I always do (using big, round numbers in analogies).
I was just trying to explain that no, roids doesn't make you a better hitter, but they do help take what you hit out of the park. If they didn't, all of those players would never have done them in the first place.
SJK.
DWKB
ASFN Icon
I think talking about steroids and how much extra distance a fly ball gets from them is why everyone focuses on HR hitters and Bonds in particular. It's just a big disconnect.
Yes, steroids make you "stronger" and can make you bulkier and that can add some power, but far above that, they keep you healthy; They allow you to heal faster. Players can take steroids and not get bulky, they can remain rather thin actually, depending on the type of exercises they perform while on the juice (just look at the Tour de France). Steroids allow the body to heal faster after a workout and give a boost during the workout, but they don't MAKE you big, the type of exercises do that. Therefore, a pitcher, or skinny SS can be just as guilty as a bulked up slugger, but the general public choses to make the stereotypical visual connection because it's easy (and the general public does EVERYTHING easy).
Yes, steroids make you "stronger" and can make you bulkier and that can add some power, but far above that, they keep you healthy; They allow you to heal faster. Players can take steroids and not get bulky, they can remain rather thin actually, depending on the type of exercises they perform while on the juice (just look at the Tour de France). Steroids allow the body to heal faster after a workout and give a boost during the workout, but they don't MAKE you big, the type of exercises do that. Therefore, a pitcher, or skinny SS can be just as guilty as a bulked up slugger, but the general public choses to make the stereotypical visual connection because it's easy (and the general public does EVERYTHING easy).
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Because Bonds never took a detectable steroid he took one that was specifically designed to be indetectable. By the time they were able to test for what Balco was selling, everyone knew they could test, and had stopped taking it.
To my knowledge nobody has ever tested positive for the designer steroids Balco made. The balco folks who did test positive did so for other steroids that they were taking as part of an overall program.
justAndy
Jolly Nihilist
I'm more intrigued by HGH - Baroid's feet and head GREW after age 35 - come on now, Baroid apologists...
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