Does Shaq Have Positive Trade Value?

[elindholm]

Because Shaq will not be here after next season.

Stoudemire is gone by 2011 at the latest.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I just do not see the Suns making a long run in the playoffs or being a Championship contender. They shop for a backup PG and a backup big man at flea markets. I would rather they have considered a trade. Anyway, if the Suns are not going to win it, why not think about improving the team long term?

I have mixed feelings but with so many fans locked onto Amare, I wonder what the Suns could get for Shaq if they shopped him? He's proven he can be a legit center this season. Just curious if he could return some positive assets. I just don't see the Suns commitment to win it all this season.

I can understand if fans are content with how the Suns are playing not to make a move. However, I'm not feeling good about the team right now. I figure if the Suns got something positive in return, they could always return to playing a 7 seconds or less and play just about as good.

Does Shaq have positive trade value?

Seriously?

 

[Folster]

Why would we trade Amare if we were blowing up? Why not look to trade Shaq/Nash for draft picks/younger players/cap space?

The same reason why the Grizzlies traded a relatively young Gasol (Pau) to rebuild. They realized that they could not build a contender with him and their current obligations. They kept Gay, received Gasol (Marc), and tanked to get a high draft pick who turned out to be Mayo. Now they have a solid nucleus with a bright future.

Is Amare a player the Suns can build a contender around? I'm not so sure. I'm willing to bet that Amare will never win a championship if he is a team's best player.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

I'm willing to bet that Amare will never win a championship if he is a teams best player.

As I have been saying, Amare is no more than a 3rd year complimentary player. Your point is solid....

 

[Covert Rain]

As I have been saying, Amare is no more than a 3rd year complimentary player. Your point is solid....

OK, that's going to far. Honestly, if you put Amare on a defensive oriented team and you have Amare in there to score you points and provide some athleticism...that would be a scary team. You cannot depend on Amare to be your anchor at the defensive end. However, if a team needed a scoring PF as it's last piece, Amare fits that bill and then some.

Here is a perfect example...Ray Allen. Many said that Ray Allen was at best a below average defender and only a scorer. You surround Ray Allen with a team that plays great team defense and it hides his short cummings while allowing your team his scoring punch. Amare could easily help in a similar situation. Ray Allen didn't all the sudden become a defensive anchor for Celtics. Case and point, the other day I watched guys blowing bye him the entire game but there was always someone behind him at the rim.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Exactly. He is a complimentary player who has not improved since his 3rd year. He is NOT a cornerstone player. He needs other significant players and a favorable system to be effective. Duncan can carry a team. Duncan and 4 scrubs would still be a .500 team. Garnett can carry a team, though probably not to the level of Duncan. Shaq was a player who could carry a team. Howard can carry a team. Paul looks like he might be able to carry a team. Amare? He's Kevin Durant. He's Domique Wilkins, though Wilkins is vastly superior....

 

[Milgod]

As I have been saying, Amare is no more than a 3rd year complimentary player. Your point is solid....

I know I don't post much (but do read a lot) and you probably won't listen to a lowly poster as myself.

However, it seems to me that you lose a lot of credibility (and it seems like you have a major vendetta against Amare) when you come out with things like that.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Lowly? Nah, you're cool. Everyone is entitled to their say, bro....

I have no 'vendetta' against Amare, but it angers me to no end when I see him loafing around the court as if his mind is elsewhere. I think it is every Suns fans right to demand effort and hustle, but we get not a speck of that from him. His disinterest makes him worthless to me as a player and necessarily expendable for this team....

 

[Divide Et Impera]

My point on Amare is:

1) He has not improved any aspect of his game since year 3

2) He is not a cornerstone player by any stretch yet he demands that type of acclaim

You put those two observations together and you get that he is no better than a 3rd year complimentary player....

 

[Milgod]

He is my favourite player on the team, but even I can see the benefit of moving him. Not because I don't think he is talented but previous moves by the front office have not been for the best. Shaq has been a beast lately, but he is not worth $20m this year or next.

The sad thing is though that if we are to rebuild completely then the one person we could get most value in return for is STAT and he is the one I would like to keep most.

 

[Folster]

For those who are still ardent Amare supporters, watch him during the next game. Don't watch the ball which can be difficult; just focus on Amare. I've done this for a quarter or two and was disgusted.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Yeah, he's like Randy Moss when he was finishing up in MIN and when he was in OAK. If the call ain't for him, he ain't playing. Great point....

 

[Covert Rain]

My point on Amare is:

1) He has not improved any aspect of his game since year 3

2) He is not a cornerstone player by any stretch yet he demands that type of acclaim

You put those two observations together and you get that he is no better than a 3rd year complimentary player....

What do you mean he has not improved?

Amare' Career Averages after his 3rd year:

FG% 5.02 (Career Now 5.42)
FT% .702 (Career Now .752)
Reb 8.9 (Career Now 9.0)
Assists 1.3 (Career Now 1.4 but is averaging 2.2 this year)

Amare has improved some parts of his game every season but don't let the facts get in the way.

 

[Folster]

What do you mean he has not improved?

Amare' Career Averages after his 3rd year:

FG% 5.02 (Career Now 5.42)
FT% .702 (Career Now .752)
Reb 8.9 (Career Now 9.0)
Assists 1.3 (Career Now 1.4 but is averaging 2.2 this year)

Amare has improved some parts of his game every season but don't let the facts get in the way.

You can't compare career numbers. Obviously career averages after his third season will be lower because his rookie season had low numbers and will be weighted heavier versus the 08-09 season. Let's compare the independent seasons 04-05 and 08-09, which I believe is the numbers that DEI is basing his assumption

04-05
MPG = 36.1
FG% = 55.9%
FT% = 73.3%
RPG = 8.9
APG = 1.6
SPG = 1.2
BPG = 1.6
TO = 2.36
PPG = 26

08-09
MPG = 37.1
FG% = 54.7%
FT% = 82.8%
RPG = 8.1
APG = 2.2
SPG = 1.1
BPG = 1.1
TO = 2.287
PPG = 21.3

Has Amar'e regressed? It should also be noted that 04-05 was the magical first year of D'Antoni's SSOL, so one could argue that numbers are inflated. If inflation is taken into account DEI's assumption is correct that Amare has not significantly improved since 04-05 outside of FT%.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Folster is EXACTLY right on my premise. Amare improved from year one to year two. Amare also improved from year two to year three. Since then, it's quite honestly been the same old same old, or maybe even a bit worse. I can assure you that his impact on games is DEFINITELY worse nowadays compared to when he was a 3rd year guy....

 

[Covert Rain]

Lets' take it step further. Instead of cherry picking seasons, would you like me to compare every single season and show you which categories he has improved in?? I was responding to specifically what he said. He said Amare had not improved on anything since his 3rd season with the Suns which is incorrect. Amare in fact has improved parts of his game each season with a few exceptions.

Some of this numbers are down this year because of Shaq and the role Shaq is playing. You don't add a player like Shaq in the middle and expect your numbers not to change when Amare for so long WAS our front court. Ofcourse you look at career numbers. Amare's numbers over the course of his career have trended up until this year.

Stats aside, to say Amare has not improved his game since his 3rd year is rediculous. Amare is a much player now then in his 3rd year. If you want to argue that Amare is still the same defensively player that he was back then...OK...fine. However, at least give credit where credit is due.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lets' take it step further. Instead of cherry picking seasons, would you like me to compare every single season and show you which categories he has improved in??

I was responding to specifically what he said. He said Amare had not improved on anything since his 3rd season with the Suns which is incorrect. Amare in fact has improved parts of his game each season with a few exceptions.

To say Amare has not improved his game since his 3rd year is rediculous. Amare is a much player now then in his 3rd year. If you want to argue that Amare is still the same defensively player that he was fine. However, at least give credit where credit is due.

but you ignore the regression on some areas. Anyone arguing that 3rd year, LeBron James-esque athleticism/speed with a solid jumper Amare isn't as good as still pretty explosive, loafing Amare who's rebounding numbers have regressed this year is fooling themselves. Amare could do anything he wanted against anyone they dared put up against him in his third year. Yesterday, we saw Brian Scalabrine give him problems... BRIAN SCALABRINE!?

He's not as explosive as he was, he's not as quick as he was, he's the same defender AT BEST, his rebounding is worse and his shot blocking is worse... and he's just flat out lazy this year, not to mention, he's incredible stupid and has shown that he doesn't learn ANY lessons (you know, like costing your team a title chance by getting suspended in the playoffs and then TWICE this year getting kicked out of game they desperately needed him). Amare is a shadow of what he was in 04-05. That Amare was being talked about as a possible legendary player after the playoffs then... now, he's probably not even gonna make the freaking All-Star game.

 

[Covert Rain]

put you ignore the regression on some areas. And I'm sorry, anyone arguing that 3rd year, LeBron James-esque athleticism/speed with a solid jumper Amare isn't as good as still pretty explosive, loafing Amare who's rebounding numbers have regressed this year is fooling themselves. Amare could do anything he wanted against anyone they dared put up against him in his third year. Yesterday, we saw Brian Scalabrine give him problems... BRIAN SCALABRINE!?

He's not as explosive as he was, he's not as quick as he was, he's the same defender AT BEST, his rebounding is worse and his shot blocking is worse... and he's just flat out lazy this year. Amare is a shadow of what he was in 04-05. That Amare was being talked about as a possible legendary player after the playoffs then... now, he's probably not even gonna make the freaking All-Star game.

No I didn't ignore regression. I said with a few exceptions. Amare does not have the same hops no doubt. However, Amare because of that injury is twice the shooter he ever was. Amare is almost money with his mid range jumper. I cringed every time he put up the ball in his first few years if he wasn't dunking the ball.

Another example is his Free Throw shooting. Amare looked horrible at the line early in his career. Again, teams don't like fouling Amare anymore and sending him to the line. That was not the case early in his career.

Again, you can make the argument he is not as athletic or he has not improved defensively. However, to say Amare is not a better player then in his 3rd year is just amazing to me. Now if Amare never had been hurt at all he is probably playing much higher above the rim then he does today.

However, one of my biggest gripes with Amare has been he needs to learn to play with the back to his basket. It was a short ******* before the injury and still is today.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Does Shaq have positive trade value?

Good question. Yes, but not very much. Shaq is plagued (rightfully so) with the stigma of being fat and injured. Though it is not true for this season, there is still another $20M for next year that scares teams. That is a lot of cabbage to give to someone riding the pine. But, he can kill it this year for some team. Personally I hope that team is the Phoenix Suns.

Amare has more trade value... but not as much as people think. Every GM has video of Amare, and they know he isn't what he thinks he is.

All being equal, I want to trade Amare now. I am tired of his loafing and big talk. Too bad we can't get a good top prospect for him... where is Isiah when you need him.

 

[Folster]

Stats aside, to say Amare has not improved his game since his 3rd year is rediculous. Amare is a much player now then in his 3rd year. If you want to argue that Amare is still the same defensively player that he was back then...OK...fine. However, at least give credit where credit is due.

I'll take 04-05 Amar'e over 08-09 Amar'e every day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's not even close.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'll take 04-05 Amar'e over 08-09 Amar'e every day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's not even close.

That makes one of us unless you talking about it from a highlight real perspective.

 

[Hughc]

I think Shaq has, or will have, value to only a few select teams should the Suns fold and there be a desire to trade him. Most teams will look at his salary as well as his foul shooting as such negatives that only teams that have lost their big man to an injury late in the season, but are still in the playoff hunt, would bring him in. I don't know that a team like Cleveland, for example, would bring him in as a late addition for a playoff push.

 

[jagu]

I am now considering trading Shaq. He could add serious front court power to a playoff team. The problem is that playoff teams won't give us back much in return and their draft picks will be late first rounders. Kerr has proven he has no drafting skills so its a dumb move.

 

[arwillan]

I think we should trade Shaq to the Lakers just so Andrew will become a Lakers fan and leave this board for good. Anyone else on that bandwagon?

 

[Andrew]

Aww....little man had his pride hurt and had to make a little quip about me in a different thread to make himself feel bigger...