Doesn't Rod Graves contract end at the end of next season?

[Stout]

At the end of any negotiation, Rod has to walk into Michael's office and seek approval. It would be the same for any other GM.

So you're saying that, no matter who is the GM, he is a mere figurehead, and the Bidwills are still to blame for holding us back?

 

[cardsfanmd]

Michael Bidwill is turning this organization around and is to be given most of the credit. It was he who hired Whis, not RG.

Graves will be gone after the season, mark it down. I will field any and all bets on the matter.

 

[az jam]

Michael Bidwill is turning this organization around and is to be given most of the credit. It was he who hired Whis, not RG.

Graves will be gone after the season, mark it down. I will field any and all bets on the matter.

Really wish you were right but as I said in my earlier post on this thread Graves got a substantial raise after Denny Green was fired. I still can't figure out why Michael Bidwill kept him.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Michael Bidwill is turning this organization around and is to be given most of the credit. It was he who hired Whis, not RG.

Graves will be gone after the season, mark it down. I will field any and all bets on the matter.

i've got an avatar bet for you if you're interested .

 

[Crazy Canuck]

So you're saying that, no matter who is the GM, he is a mere figurehead, and the Bidwills are still to blame for holding us back?

It is family owned business, and they decide how the millions from the operating budget that contains the bonus $$$ is spent. They create the envelope and whether it is Graves, or someone else, they have to work within the limits. I, for one, am not particularly disturbed by that.

 

[TigToad]

You're right, really. I remember watching the draft that day screaming at the TV to draft (okay, I admit, Leftwich), but thinking we were getting Leftwich or Suggs and was prepared to be happy either way. That was sad.

I do wonder, if we had taken Boldin in the first (with Pace) and still got Johnson in the second, if people would have been upset with that trade.

Okay, on the trade, yer gonna lose that argument Your other two points...I don't necessarily disagree. You must remember, I'm not upset about lack of speed in FA...any more. That used to be a pet peeve of mine, but I've gottem beyond that. I'm not getting on Graves for that any more, so no need to argue.

Oh, but that trade. Yeah, when you trade down in the 1st, you don't also GIVE UP another pick (4th rounder), AND trade BACK in the 2nd round, to get a deal to happen. If a team wants to trade up, you either make THEM give up extra, or you don't do the deal. We gave up a 4th rounder and traded back in the 2nd, which might have caused us to miss Boldin. Luckily it didn't, but that's really all it is: dumb luck. I've seen people try to praise Graves for the trade because we got Boldin out of it. No, we got Boldin IN SPITE of it. Throw in the fact that most people didn't think it was a deep draft at the top, and that we desperately needed a pass rusher and a good one was available, and it was a HORRENDOUS trade.

 

[lobo]

Boy do "we" (yeah, I really dig when posters decide they can speak for everyone) need to get rid of Graves. The guy should be given a star for putting up with a very weak structure until MB took the bridge. Those of "us" who use "we" man up and say "I" not "we" Let me know the next time you sign "our" checks to the f/o or players.

 

[JeffGollin]

We want a new GM. Don't re-sign him.

What do you mean "we", Kemo Sabe?

 

[JeffGollin]

Some thoughts on Graves:

1. If you reviewed the body of work compiled by just about every successful NFL General Manager, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who hadn't screwed up a decision at least once during his career.

2. It's easy, therefore, to cherry-pick one or two bad moves you think Rod Graves made in order to support the more global view that he's a bad GM.

3. I'll cherry-pick a couple of examples for you - (1) Passing on Suggs; (2) Being somewhat non-proactive signing FA's or re-signing our own guys.


4. But when you review the Graves resume in toto, you'll find a guy who has brought structure, stability and planning to a team that heretofore was characterized by (a) bad decisions being the rule/not the exception and (b) all-over-the-place in its thinking and (c) lead-footed in its reaction to events.

And - if you're "outcome" or "results"-oriented - the Cardinal roster today compared to the Cardinal roster "before Graves" has been significantly upgraded and our most recent W & L record wasn't too shabby either.

5. Same deal with front office personnel as it is with players - If you're going to whack a guy, you'd better have a better replacement waiting in the wings - signed, sealed and delivered. (Not as easy as you might think).

6. Some GM's have figured out that the key to survival is to make no decisions at all - that way you can't be fired for doing one or two dumb things. Result - some really bad GM's. To fire your own GM for precisely the same thing would be to set a really stupid management precedent that would hamstring any new GM we might bring in.

7. While obviously, it's better to make good decisions than bad ones - giving a competent individual some leeway and letting him learn from his/her mistakes is one way you develop management talent. Observing Rod G over the years (from the days when he "drafted solely for need" to where he now adheres to a modified version of BPA), it seems to me that he's been a good learner and has used this to evolve into a fairly savvy GM.

 

[bg7brd]

Some thoughts on Graves:

1. If you reviewed the body of work compiled by just about every successful NFL General Manager, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who hadn't screwed up a decision at least once during his career.

2. It's easy, therefore, to cherry-pick one or two bad moves you think Rod Graves made in order to support the more global view that he's a bad GM.

3. I'll cherry-pick a couple of examples for you - (1) Passing on Suggs; (2) Being somewhat non-proactive signing FA's or re-signing our own guys.


4. But when you review the Graves resume in toto, you'll find a guy who has brought structure, stability and planning to a team that heretofore was characterized by (a) bad decisions being the rule/not the exception and (b) all-over-the-place in its thinking and (c) lead-footed in its reaction to events.

And - if you're "outcome" or "results"-oriented - the Cardinal roster today compared to the Cardinal roster "before Graves" has been significantly upgraded and our most recent W & L record wasn't too shabby either.

5. Same deal with front office personnel as it is with players - If you're going to whack a guy, you'd better have a better replacement waiting in the wings - signed, sealed and delivered. (Not as easy as you might think).

6. Some GM's have figured out that the key to survival is to make no decisions at all - that way you can't be fired for doing one or two dumb things. Result - some really bad GM's. To fire your own GM for precisely the same thing would be to set a really stupid management precedent that would hamstring any new GM we might bring in.

7. While obviously, it's better to make good decisions than bad ones - giving a competent individual some leeway and letting him learn from his/her mistakes is one way you develop management talent. Observing Rod G over the years (from the days when he "drafted solely for need" to where he now adheres to a modified version of BPA), it seems to me that he's been a good learner and has used this to evolve into a fairly savvy GM.

I agree. Good post Jeff.

 

[lauraw]

Good info here, Mr Gollin! Can anyone answer who we could have drafted instead of Calvin Pace and BJohnson in those spots?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Good info here, Mr Gollin! Can anyone answer who we could have drafted instead of Calvin Pace and BJohnson in those spots?

We were actually targeting another D-end (McDougall) that the Eagles selected ahead of us. He's been injured and hasn't amounted to much. Pace was someone climbing up the draft boards and some publications saw him going near the end of the first or early second.

 

[JeffGollin]

Good info here, Mr Gollin! Can anyone answer who we could have drafted instead of Calvin Pace and BJohnson in those spots?

Good question, but wrong premise.

The problem wasn't "Who better than Pace and BJ?" (although I'll give you one name: "Anquan Boldin). It was that we traded out of a talent "plateau" of roughly 10 - 12 players to a point where we could draft two consecutive mediocre players.

By trading all the way from #6 down into the #17 -#18 range, we passed on guys like Terrell Suggs, Kevin Willliams and Marcus Trufaunt. The Cards needed a pass rusher, and the plan was to grab the DE (McDougal) at #17; however, the Eagles traded up to one spot ahead of us to grab McDougal. After we drafted a WR (BJ), we reached for our pass rusher (Pace) who was projected to be a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

Every draft isn't the same as every other draft. The 2003 draft was unique in that the talent dropped off the proverbial cliff at around #12. This was Graves' first draft as a GM (I believe he wanted to make his mark early as a savvy trader, but in doing so was "too smart by ten"). His mistake wasn't necessarily in trading down, but in trading down too far to be assured he'd get an elite prospect with either of the two picks.

Note - This draft was not a total disaster - we did steal Boldin in the second round and then draft Gerald Hayes, Kenny King and Reggie Wells during the second day. Not only that, but injuries pretty much derailed McDougal's pro career anyway.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

y the way, who is McCreight[not sure of first name] in the front office, could his role expand..

Google him. He's on the Cardinals web site. (I like to do my own digging and try to figure out what could be happening.)

 

[earthsci]

Good info here, Mr Gollin! Can anyone answer who we could have drafted instead of Calvin Pace and BJohnson in those spots?

I'm not being critical, just answering your question. Players that could have been drafted after those two but before Boldin -

• Jeff Faine
• Willis McGahee
• Dallas Clark
• Larry Johnson
• Andre Woolfolk (LOL, a bust that I wanted)
• Nnamdi Asomugha
• Eric Steinbach
• Jonathan Stinchcomb
• E.J. Henderson
• Chris Kelsay

A lot of people didn't like that trade because we could have drafted Terrell Suggs but my understanding is that if we had stayed at #6 we would have drafted Johnathan Sullivan, who was a huge bust.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

A lot of people didn't like that trade because we could have drafted Terrell Suggs but my understanding is that if we had stayed at #6 we would have drafted Johnathan Sullivan, who was a huge bust.

Any way you cut it. Whether trading out of the spot, or chosing J.Sullivan.....it was a travesty that the Cardinals didn't draft Suggs. To this day I am angry about it, I remember the shock, and utter rage that went through my body when the Cardinals screwed that up.

Seriously......I mean, seriously. How do you sit there and not draft Terrell Suggs ?

 

[earthsci]

Seriously......I mean, seriously. How do you sit there and not draft Terrell Suggs ?

Well I know that his charges for assault right before the draft didn't help.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Any way you cut it. Whether trading out of the spot, or chosing J.Sullivan.....it was a travesty that the Cardinals didn't draft Suggs. To this day I am angry about it, I remember the shock, and utter rage that went through my body when the Cardinals screwed that up.

Seriously......I mean, seriously. How do you sit there and not draft Terrell Suggs ?

We were running a 4-3 and Suggs was considered less than ideal as an end in that formation. The Cards were hardly the only team that passed on Suggs, and as his career has shown... he is 3-4 OLB/DE.

 

[lauraw]

Thank you earthsci!!, Dems MyBoys, Crazy Canuck, and Mr. Gollin.