Draft Grade

[Solar7]

I'm late to the party here, but it's a C from me. It's not that I think Collins and Rondale will be horrible players, I just don't quite get the major problems they solve, or how they fit in the bigger picture for our future. The remainder of the draft is fine with me, but in the most impactful draft spots, I just don't see guys that fill major roles.

I have decent hope about Collins, but it's just so underwhelming to pick the same position two years in a row when Vance Joseph is so boring. If we had Bowles, I might be thrilled. Moore's a good dude it seems, and had some success, but he has so many question marks, like being so short and having been really hindered with injuries. It feels like his upside is Tarik Cohen, which... okay, cool, he's got his moments, but is he filling a void for 5-10 years, or just the guy we deploy in spurts to play "air raid" football? We're literally going to draft or re-sign his position at a premium next year, because putting someone 5'7 on the outside is a disaster. That's tough for me, when a guy like Friermuth could be an unquestioned starter for years.

I also struggle with folks that are assigning Hudson and Hopkins all of this value as part of our draft. Hudson was about to be cut, and we gave up a 3rd, and a contract extension with voided years that hit our future cap when the guy might be out of the NFL. I like Hudson, but... man, we almost had another player too. Keim also doesn't get extra credit for Hopkins. He can't just be your 2nd round pick last year AND your 4th round pick. We didn't draft a hall of famer (well, best of luck Marco Wilson) with our 4th rounder this year, and it shouldn't be painted that way.

 

[PACardsFan]

In the 8 years before Keim took over, the Cardinals went to the playoffs twice, won four playoff games, two division titles, an NFC Championship and were within 34 seconds of winning the Super Bowl.

In the 8 years since Keim took over, the Cardinals have gone to the playoffs 2 times, won 1 game, and won 1 Division title.

So, even with a GM like Graves, who we all thought was terrible, the Cardinals had more post season success, won more division titles and a conference championship, while drafting some of the major impact players who helped buttress Keim’s success in his first three seasons, having drafted Larry, PP, Calais.

This isn't a discussion over whether we should or shouldn't keep Keim. If the Cardinals go sideways or backwards, Keim will no doubt be replaced. You're kidding yourself if you think Graves had anything to do with the success this team had from 2008-2010. We can thank Denny Green for the drafts that created yet another SHORT TERM stretch of success for this organization. It was also Denny Green that brought Kurt Warner here & by now, we should all realize that the playoff appearances, playoff wins, NFC Championship, etc had more to do with Warner than anything else. If Keim had a Warner type instead of Palmer, things may have been different during the 2013-2017 years.

Look, successful franchises get to the pinnacle from consistent & steady progress. This franchise has NEVER had more than a 2-3 year stretch of good football. I've been a fan since the 60's, They would have 2 very good seasons (much tougher to make the playoffs back then), and then break everyone's heart by tumbling back to crap. Literally overnight. This has happened throughout every decade since. They put together a few good seasons & then hit rock bottom. Didn't matter who the coach was, the GM was, or the QB (with the exception of Warner). Granted, Bill Bidwill was the worst owner in all of sports, not just the NFL. Will it be different under Michael? Time will tell. He fired Whiz/Graves & had early success with BASK. The hiring of Wilks set this franchise back 5 years. And that was far more on Bidwill than it was on Keim. They have made steady progress each of the last 2 seasons. Will it continue to a 3rd season? That would require a 9, 10, or 11 win season & hopefully a trip back to the playoffs. Whether I set the bar low or high, the history of this franchise over a 60 year stretch would have us crashing back into the abyss this season. If we do continue to ascend, then Keim would have done enough to keep his job & more than most GM's in Cardinal history. Are they a better team than last year? I would say yes. Will injuries derail us? No one knows.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm late to the party here, but it's a C from me. It's not that I think Collins and Rondale will be horrible players, I just don't quite get the major problems they solve, or how they fit in the bigger picture for our future. The remainder of the draft is fine with me, but in the most impactful draft spots, I just don't see guys that fill major roles.

I have decent hope about Collins, but it's just so underwhelming to pick the same position two years in a row when Vance Joseph is so boring. If we had Bowles, I might be thrilled.

I'll qualify my take on this: I had moved into the AVT camp before the draft, because I looked at it as doubling down on building the offensive line and giving Kyler the best chance to succeed.

Once he was gone, we were basically looking at about 10-12 guys that were all about the same grade wise. I think that taking Collins was a cleaner bet than most of the other prospects. Fans and analytic junkies underrate how nice it is to have TWO 3 down backers on the roster. This means the Cardinals don't have to run dime packages or have Hicks/Vallejo out there in a nickel. That's huge! Hicks was probably the worst every down defender the Cardinals employed last year. I found it quite telling that the team essentially said Collins will start right away and will play a lot of snaps immediately. I think you're underrating how important replacing Hicks is. Dude was so frustrating last year, seeing him give up so many easy catches across the middle.

Collins might play the same position as Simmons, but I think Keim made a great point in pointing out all of the real good defense who employ two, three down linebackers. I think Collins has the highest chance of any player that was available in round one of making an impact immediately.

Moore's a good dude it seems, and had some success, but he has so many question marks, like being so short and having been really hindered with injuries. It feels like his upside is Tarik Cohen, which... okay, cool, he's got his moments, but is he filling a void for 5-10 years, or just the guy we deploy in spurts to play "air raid" football? We're literally going to draft or re-sign his position at a premium next year, because putting someone 5'7 on the outside is a disaster. That's tough for me, when a guy like Friermuth could be an unquestioned starter for years..

I liked Friermuth, but I don't think the team wants to use a slow, possession receiving TE. What excites me about Moore is that I can see specific plays that he should be dynamite at in the Air Raid. Bro....watching the Cardinals throw those stupid bubble screens to DHop and Fitz last year was incredibly frustrating. Also, I can imaging watching Kirk and Moore running mesh across the middle of the field. Either guy can turn it up field fairly well and I've always felt Kirk would be much better in the slot.

I also struggle with folks that are assigning Hudson and Hopkins all of this value as part of our draft. Hudson was about to be cut, and we gave up a 3rd, and a contract extension with voided years that hit our future cap when the guy might be out of the NFL. I like Hudson, but... man, we almost had another player too. Keim also doesn't get extra credit for Hopkins. He can't just be your 2nd round pick last year AND your 4th round pick. We didn't draft a hall of famer (well, best of luck Marco Wilson) with our 4th rounder this year, and it shouldn't be painted that way.

Yeah I don't think that's really fair either; I think you evaluate the picks that were made and don't subtract a grade because you brought in good players with those picks.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This isn't a discussion over whether we should or shouldn't keep Keim. If the Cardinals go sideways or backwards, Keim will no doubt be replaced. You're kidding yourself if you think Graves had anything to do with the success this team had from 2008-2010. We can thank Denny Green for the drafts that created yet another SHORT TERM stretch of success for this organization. It was also Denny Green that brought Kurt Warner here & by now, we should all realize that the playoff appearances, playoff wins, NFC Championship, etc had more to do with Warner than anything else. If Keim had a Warner type instead of Palmer, things may have been different during the 2013-2017 years.

Look, successful franchises get to the pinnacle from consistent & steady progress. This franchise has NEVER had more than a 2-3 year stretch of good football. I've been a fan since the 60's, They would have 2 very good seasons (much tougher to make the playoffs back then), and then break everyone's heart by tumbling back to crap. Literally overnight. This has happened throughout every decade since. They put together a few good seasons & then hit rock bottom. Didn't matter who the coach was, the GM was, or the QB (with the exception of Warner). Granted, Bill Bidwill was the worst owner in all of sports, not just the NFL. Will it be different under Michael? Time will tell. He fired Whiz/Graves & had early success with BASK. The hiring of Wilks set this franchise back 5 years. And that was far more on Bidwill than it was on Keim. They have made steady progress each of the last 2 seasons. Will it continue to a 3rd season? That would require a 9, 10, or 11 win season & hopefully a trip back to the playoffs. Whether I set the bar low or high, the history of this franchise over a 60 year stretch would have us crashing back into the abyss this season. If we do continue to ascend, then Keim would have done enough to keep his job & more than most GM's in Cardinal history. Are they a better team than last year? I would say yes. Will injuries derail us? No one knows.

you totally missed my point, while just making my point for me. Graves was atrocious and we still had more success with an atrocious GM than we have with Keim. Blame Wilks on everyone but Keim all you want, but it was Keim who choose McCoy to be his OC, doubling down on the suck, it was Keim who threw a payload of f money at Bradford, drafted Rosen, which helped put and drafted horrifically for the four years before that to “put us back five years.”

bottom line we’re looking a blind squirrel can find a nut odds with or without Keim and losing him won’t make a difference there.

 

[PACardsFan]

you totally missed my point, while just making my point for me. Graves was atrocious and we still had more success with an atrocious GM than we have with Keim. Blame Wilks on everyone but Keim all you want, but it was Keim who choose McCoy to be his OC, doubling down on the suck, it was Keim who threw a payload of f money at Bradford, drafted Rosen, which helped put and drafted horrifically for the four years before that to “put us back five years.”

bottom line we’re looking a blind squirrel can find a nut odds with or without Keim and losing him won’t make a difference there.

I already explained why we had VERY LATE success under Graves. It had nothing to do with Graves. Everything to do with Warner. Keim is a gazillion times better a GM than Graves was. It didn’t pan out, but Rosen was the right pick at the time. If not for Rosen, we never would have been in a position to get Murray. So Kudos to Keim for that whole situation. It’s real easy, if the Cardinals go backwards, you fire Keim & KK. I they make the playoffs, you immediately extend Keim. He’s had a great offseason, and regardless of how high or low the “Cardinal” bar is, he’s still one of the best GM’s in Cardinal history. That may be as a result of a historically pathetic franchise, but it’s still a fact.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'll qualify my take on this: I had moved into the AVT camp before the draft, because I looked at it as doubling down on building the offensive line and giving Kyler the best chance to succeed.

Once he was gone, we were basically looking at about 10-12 guys that were all about the same grade wise. I think that taking Collins was a cleaner bet than most of the other prospects. Fans and analytic junkies underrate how nice it is to have TWO 3 down backers on the roster. This means the Cardinals don't have to run dime packages or have Hicks/Vallejo out there in a nickel. That's huge! Hicks was probably the worst every down defender the Cardinals employed last year. I found it quite telling that the team essentially said Collins will start right away and will play a lot of snaps immediately. I think you're underrating how important replacing Hicks is. Dude was so frustrating last year, seeing him give up so many easy catches across the middle.

Collins might play the same position as Simmons, but I think Keim made a great point in pointing out all of the real good defense who employ two, three down linebackers. I think Collins has the highest chance of any player that was available in round one of making an impact immediately.



I liked Friermuth, but I don't think the team wants to use a slow, possession receiving TE. What excites me about Moore is that I can see specific plays that he should be dynamite at in the Air Raid. Bro....watching the Cardinals throw those stupid bubble screens to DHop and Fitz last year was incredibly frustrating. Also, I can imaging watching Kirk and Moore running mesh across the middle of the field. Either guy can turn it up field fairly well and I've always felt Kirk would be much better in the slot.



Yeah I don't think that's really fair either; I think you evaluate the picks that were made and don't subtract a grade because you brought in good players with those picks.

If kliff runs bubble screens to DHop and AJ instead of Rondale I’ll lose my mind this season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I already explained why we had VERY LATE success under Graves. It had nothing to do with Graves. Everything to do with Warner. Keim is a gazillion times better a GM than Graves was. It didn’t pan out, but Rosen was the right pick at the time. If not for Rosen, we never would have been in a position to get Murray. So Kudos to Keim for that whole situation. It’s real easy, if the Cardinals go backwards, you fire Keim & KK. I they make the playoffs, you immediately extend Keim. He’s had a great offseason, and regardless of how high or low the “Cardinal” bar is, he’s still one of the best GM’s in Cardinal history. That may be as a result of a historically pathetic franchise, but it’s still a fact.

you immediately EXTEND Keim? What if they end up the 7 seed? Get blown out in the first round? You immediately extend that? No. That’s ridiculous. They win a playoff game? They show REAL progress taking a step towards contender? Maybe I entertain that. But not just by slinking into the playoffs.

and did you just give Kudos to Keim for putting together a team terrible enough to get the number 1 pick? That’s insane, dude. Did he do the right thing to give up on Rosen. Yes. But... forget it.

you’ve never been objective about Keim and his rash of failure of the last FIVE YEARS. It’s pointless to have this convo.

 

[Dan H]

I already explained why we had VERY LATE success under Graves. It had nothing to do with Graves. Everything to do with Warner. Keim is a gazillion times better a GM than Graves was. It didn’t pan out, but Rosen was the right pick at the time. If not for Rosen, we never would have been in a position to get Murray. So Kudos to Keim for that whole situation. It’s real easy, if the Cardinals go backwards, you fire Keim & KK. I they make the playoffs, you immediately extend Keim. He’s had a great offseason, and regardless of how high or low the “Cardinal” bar is, he’s still one of the best GM’s in Cardinal history. That may be as a result of a historically pathetic franchise, but it’s still a fact.

The Denny Draft seeded a lot of the team's success, IMO.

 

[Krangodnzr]

If kliff runs bubble screens to DHop and AJ instead of Rondale I’ll lose my mind this season.

I would scream at my screen every time they ran it last year. I can't remember a single time it gained more than a few yards, and quite a few times, it lost yards.

Those bubble screens to DHop convinced me more than anything else that Fitz was done last year. He must've whiffed on the block altogether a dozen times.

 

[Krangodnzr]

you immediately EXTEND Keim? What if they end up the 7 seed? Get blown out in the first round? You immediately extend that? No. That’s ridiculous. They win a playoff game? They show REAL progress taking a step towards contender? Maybe I entertain that. But not just by slinking into the playoffs.

and did you just give Kudos to Keim for putting together a team terrible enough to get the number 1 pick? That’s insane, dude. Did he do the right thing to give up on Rosen. Yes. But... forget it.

you’ve never been objective about Keim and his rash of failure of the last FIVE YEARS. It’s pointless to have this convo.

Yeah I don't see it. I don't understand how Michael hasn't fired him already. The Cardinals making the playoffs and not getting their asses kicked should buy Keim another year. Missing the playoffs or getting their doors blown off should be a clean sweep.

Kliff will get three years to figure things out and Keim has gone through his nine lives.

What I fear is that we will see the Adrian Wilson or Quentin Harris era, and both of those guys grew up in scouting under Keim, so I would look at it as an extension of the Graves/Keim era.

 

[cardncubfan]

The Denny Draft seeded a lot of the team's success, IMO.

I was going to say the same thing. Denny was great at player eval.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah I don't see it. I don't understand how Michael hasn't fired him already. The Cardinals making the playoffs and not getting their asses kicked should buy Keim another year. Missing the playoffs or getting their doors blown off should be a clean sweep.

Kliff will get three years to figure things out and Keim has gone through his nine lives.

What I fear is that we will see the Adrian Wilson or Quentin Harris era, and both of those guys grew up in scouting under Keim, so I would look at it as an extension of the Graves/Keim era.

with ya here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was going to say the same thing. Denny was great at player eval.

he really only had one great draft.

 

[cardncubfan]

he really only had one great draft.

Wasn't he the one that drafted most of the players on the 2008 team? All of them were from one draft? I thought he had a couple of good drafts in a row. I may be remembering it wrong but I always thought the thing with Denny was he was better at player eval than coaching.

 

[Dan H]

Antrel Rolle and JJ Arrington were solid players during our Super Bowl run. Same for Deuce and Pope. That's eight major contributors in the draft from Denny's tenure.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would scream at my screen every time they ran it last year. I can't remember a single time it gained more than a few yards, and quite a few times, it lost yards.

Those bubble screens to DHop convinced me more than anything else that Fitz was done last year. He must've whiffed on the block altogether a dozen times.

Same

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wasn't he the one that drafted most of the players on the 2008 team? All of them were from one draft? I thought he had a couple of good drafts in a row. I may be remembering it wrong but I always thought the thing with Denny was he was better at player eval than coaching.

2004. Drafted Fitz, Dansby and Antonio Smith. Maybe one other. But those three guys were absolutely leaders and playmakers on the 2008 team. I think The next year they drafted Rolle, who also contributed. But after that, those drafts were pretty barren.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Antrel Rolle and JJ Arrington were solid players during our Super Bowl run. Same for Deuce and Pope. That's eight major contributors in the draft from Denny's tenure.

pope and Arrington really made very little, to any impact.

was Arrington even on the roster for the Super Bowl? I know Pope actually caught a touchdown... a TOUGH catch too, which was shocking and about the only thing he did his entire career with us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Antrel Rolle and JJ Arrington were solid players during our Super Bowl run. Same for Deuce and Pope. That's eight major contributors in the draft from Denny's tenure.

Arrington was a very replaceable third down back. Pope has less than 80 yards receiving on the year, also easily replaceable. I wouldn’t count them.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

2004. Drafted Fitz, Dansby and Antonio Smith. Maybe one other. But those three guys were absolutely leaders and playmakers on the 2008 team. I think The next year they drafted Rolle, who also contributed. But after that, those drafts were pretty barren.

Fitz, dansby, docket, and smith. It was incredible draft.

 

[Krangodnzr]

pope and Arrington really made very little, to any impact.

was Arrington even on the roster for the Super Bowl? I know Pope actually caught a touchdown... a TOUGH catch too, which was shocking and about the only thing he did his entire career with us.

I thought that was Ben Patrick.....who later worked as a security guard at Marcos De Niza HS LOL.

 

[Krangodnzr]

2004. Drafted Fitz, Dansby and Antonio Smith. Maybe one other. But those three guys were absolutely leaders and playmakers on the 2008 team. I think The next year they drafted Rolle, who also contributed. But after that, those drafts were pretty barren.

03 wasn't a bad draft class years later. Pace (who became a solid player), Boldin, and Gerald Hayes. Pace turned his career around in 07 (like Haason Reddick!) and moved on in 08. But to find three solid starters, one being a HOF caliber player is a good draft.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That draft was really insane. Had we been able to get a QB and become a perennial playoff team it would’ve been one of those much-hyped drafts. Even two of the “misses” (the centers) brought some value.

• fitz
• Dansby
• Dockett
• Stepanovich - started all 16 as rookie and most games in 2005 and 2006
  
• Antonio smith
• Leckey - eventually made 20 starts
  
• Navarre - only true “thud”

 

[Dan H]

pope and Arrington really made very little, to any impact.

was Arrington even on the roster for the Super Bowl? I know Pope actually caught a touchdown... a TOUGH catch too, which was shocking and about the only thing he did his entire career with us.

Arrington took the handoff for the flea-flicker in the NFC championship game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Arrington took the handoff for the flea-flicker in the NFC championship game.

lol... he do anything else?