Draft grades

[elindholm]

It looks to me like McD/Babby are doing a fine job step by step, but a lot of fans here seem to want to skip a couple of steps.

I don't think that's it. I think there is a strong perception that this roster has already reached its ceiling. There's a big difference between winning 48 games when you have two 20-year-olds named Durant and Westbrook on your roster, and winning 48 games with a bunch of second-tier mid-career guys who bought into a team concept because they were happy to have the opportunity.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think that's it. I think there is a strong perception that this roster has already reached its ceiling. There's a big difference between winning 48 games when you have two 20-year-olds named Durant and Westbrook on your roster, and winning 48 games with a bunch of second-tier mid-career guys who bought into a team concept because they were happy to have the opportunity.

If the Suns do not make significant improvements to their team, this might be fair. However, I expect the Suns to make improvements in free agency and trade this off season or before the trading deadline.

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't think that's it. I think there is a strong perception that this roster has already reached its ceiling. There's a big difference between winning 48 games when you have two 20-year-olds named Durant and Westbrook on your roster, and winning 48 games with a bunch of second-tier mid-career guys who bought into a team concept because they were happy to have the opportunity.

Well, I disagree that they've reached their ceiling, but even that's not my point.
My point is that two years ago, Dragic was an OK player. He finished the season averaging 20+ points, shooting great percentage from the field and from the three, ended up on the third all-NBA team.

Last year, Plumlee was a nobody. Now he is a solid role player, even if we assume he reached his ceiling (which I think is a false assumption.)
Suns turned Jared Dudley into Eric Bledsoe. Now, I am not a huge Bledsoe fan, but he's an asset. At the beginning of last season, I was pissed that the Suns didn't dump the Morris twins. Markieff appears to be a real NBA player now. At worst, he is a good back-up PF.
Green was a nobody. He looked like a solid shooting guard to me. (Yes, I realize he's had good seasons before, and we don't know that he is going to keep playing well.)
Goodwin, at least showed some promise. Didn't see much from Len, but we all knew Len wasn't going to be a factor this year.

To me, that is a very nice step in the right direction. Suns now have some assets. They will keep adding assets, and having assets is what allows you to trade for these "Stars" or "Superstars" or "Franchise players" or whatever we want to call them.

 

[elindholm]

They will keep adding assets, and having assets is what allows you to trade for these "Stars" or "Superstars" or "Franchise players" or whatever we want to call them.

I just don't agree with this last part. To use Dragic or Bledsoe as the headliner in a package deal for a top-ten player, sure, I can see that happening, maybe. But there's no way you're getting a "star" (or whatever) with a group of Markieff Morrises, Gerald Greens, and Miles Plumlees. Those are useful players, in the right situation, but they aren't getting you a big name, no matter how many of them you include.

We just saw in the draft how hard it is to trade three dimes for a quarter. The same principle applies as you move up the pay scale.

 

[KloD]

I don't think so. I said he wasn't a perfect owner. However, look at the big names he acquired. What has Sarver done? He hasn't made one move as big as Chambers, Barkley or Nash for example. All sports is entertainment. It's not life or death but they all have goals or what's the point of it all? Nothing is more fun than winning a title.

The point for us is to be entertained. As far as the owners, it's to run a profitable business. To what degree is different for all of them I suppose. Having our team win a Championship would be thrilling, but I'm just a fan. I don't lose sleep when they lose and I don't get paid when they win. My investment is minimal in the big picture no matter how much I'd love to see them succeed. On a side note, I've always thought of fans that brag about their chosen teams success as pretty pathetic. It's such an odd thing to take credit for IMO. Ooooo you chose a team that won something to root for. It's not a personal accomplishment, nor did they have any part of that success. So maybe I just don't get the whole rabid fan thing? I've just thought those folks needed more in their life or something. So maybe I just can't relate to folks that get emotional over this stuff? I love my teams and will probably always watch and follow them, but I don't lose sleep over their failures.

Ok, except that Jerry wasn't the owner when they brought Nash back. Sarver was. Yes, Jerry was still part of the club, but he no longer owned it. Also, you cannot ignore the bad moved Jerry made and only look at the good ones. Those bad moves are a part of why this team has not won a title. That and the length each owned the team isn't even in the ballpark. Jerry learned and grew with the league, Sarver stepped in. Different scenarios. The league and rules are different today. It's just not the same league. Hey, I'm not saying Sarver doesn't have his faults, but if you think you could walk into that situation and not make your share of mistakes I think that would be a foolish assumption. In the end it doesn't matter what you or I think of him, it's his team. You either root for it or don't. Spending time bitching about the guy isn't productive and it's tiresome.

 

[Chaplin]

The point for us is to be entertained. As far as the owners, it's to run a profitable business. To what degree is different for all of them I suppose. Having our team win a Championship would be thrilling, but I'm just a fan. I don't lose sleep when they lose and I don't get paid when they win. My investment is minimal in the big picture no matter how much I'd love to see them succeed. On a side note, I've always thought of fans that brag about their chosen teams success as pretty pathetic. It's such an odd thing to take credit for IMO. Ooooo you chose a team that won something to root for. It's not a personal accomplishment, nor did they have any part of that success. So maybe I just don't get the whole rabid fan thing? I've just thought those folks needed more in their life or something. So maybe I just can't relate to folks that get emotional over this stuff? I love my teams and will probably always watch and follow them, but I don't lose sleep over their failures.

Ok, except that Jerry wasn't the owner when they brought Nash back. Sarver was. Yes, Jerry was still part of the club, but he no longer owned it. Also, you cannot ignore the bad moved Jerry made and only look at the good ones. Those bad moves are a part of why this team has not won a title. That and the length each owned the team isn't even in the ballpark. Jerry learned and grew with the league, Sarver stepped in. Different scenarios. The league and rules are different today. It's just not the same league. Hey, I'm not saying Sarver doesn't have his faults, but if you think you could walk into that situation and not make your share of mistakes I think that would be a foolish assumption. In the end it doesn't matter what you or I think of him, it's his team. You either root for it or don't. Spending time bitching about the guy isn't productive and it's tiresome.

Sarver's main problem is that he was hiring the wrong kind of people. I'm guessing D'Antoni survived as GM simply because we were winning at the time. He was terribly bad at it, although he did draft Amare, which was our last good pick.

Kerr was also horrible, and particularly overrated by this very board. And let's not say much about Blanks--that guy was the worst of the worst.

These guys were either afraid to tell Sarver he was interfering or too incompetent to tell him that what we were doing was wrong. Either way, Sarver hired McD and appears to be just fine with him and Lon making all the decisions. That to me is a step in the right decision. He's now what we want him to be, the guy that signs the checks. And when he says he's willing to go over the tax line to get good players, that's really all you need to hear.

 

[KloD]

Sarver's main problem is that he was hiring the wrong kind of people. I'm guessing D'Antoni survived as GM simply because we were winning at the time. He was terribly bad at it, although he did draft Amare, which was our last good pick.

Kerr was also horrible, and particularly overrated by this very board. And let's not say much about Blanks--that guy was the worst of the worst.

These guys were either afraid to tell Sarver he was interfering or too incompetent to tell him that what we were doing was wrong. Either way, Sarver hired McD and appears to be just fine with him and Lon making all the decisions. That to me is a step in the right decision. He's now what we want him to be, the guy that signs the checks. And when he says he's willing to go over the tax line to get good players, that's really all you need to hear.

Exactly. The guy was never as bad as Jerry Jones, but leaned in that direction. He made mistakes in who he hired and I think the fans and media love of this current front office and coach shows him what it is to be a good owner.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the Suns do not make significant improvements to their team, this might be fair. However, I expect the Suns to make improvements in free agency and trade this off season or before the trading deadline.

I expect them to try but I think there's plenty of improvement to be had even without major changes. Bledsoe and Dragic are still learning how to play together. Plumlee hit the wall or dropped off from injuries and he should be better prepared to play the full schedule this season. The same goes for Frye if we bring him back. Len probably won't be much of a factor this season but Goodwin might be. And I don't see any reason to assume the Morris twins have capped out. Add in the fact we drafted two of the more NBA ready rookies that will add to our depth and I think we can take that next step from 48 wins to something in the mid-50's.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sarver's main problem is that he was hiring the wrong kind of people. I'm guessing D'Antoni survived as GM simply because we were winning at the time. He was terribly bad at it, although he did draft Amare, which was our last good pick.

Amare was drafted in 2002, 2 years before DA was the Head Coach and 4 years before he was the GM.

 

[Superbone]

Jerry Colangelo was the prime force behind drafting Amare.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jerry Colangelo was the prime force behind drafting Amare.

and signing Nash. All reports were that Sarver didn't want to do it and JC had to talk him into it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Guys...... 10 years....Sarver has been here for 10 years and not one franchise draft pick, not one trade to acquire a franchise player and not one franchise caliber free agent signing. Not one.

Bledsoe is the closest thing and the jury is still out on him but he is not a franchise player IMO. I don't know about you but that is a pretty crappy track record and doesn't scream....PHOENIX...we would love to play for you.

You can say what you want about JC but he made some pretty good damn moves in his day to put this Phoenix Suns team on the map.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Guys...... 10 years....Sarver has been here for 10 years and not one significant major franchise acquisition or franchise changing signing. Not one.

Bledsoe is the closest thing. I don't know about you but that is pretty crappy track record and doesn't scream....PHOENIX...we would love to play for you.

You can say what you want about JC but he made some pretty good damn moves in his day to put this Phoenix Suns team on the map.

not only that, but there's a reason that Team USA turned to JC to get the gold back and completely revitalize Olympic basketball. Dude was as respected as anyone in the NBA and still is. Did he win us a title? No. But under JC, we were one of the best teams in the NBA for years and a well acknowledged jewel that attracted the best FA in the game.

 

[Chaplin]

Guys...... 10 years....Sarver has been here for 10 years and not one franchise draft pick, not one trade to acquire a franchise player and not one franchise caliber free agent signing. Not one.

Bledsoe is the closest thing and the jury is still out on him but he is not a franchise player IMO. I don't know about you but that is a pretty crappy track record and doesn't scream....PHOENIX...we would love to play for you.

You can say what you want about JC but he made some pretty good damn moves in his day to put this Phoenix Suns team on the map.

But we actually HAD two franchise players! Nash and Amare both were franchise players, and Amare would have been even greater had he not had bad knees. We had Nash for 8 of those 10 years! We also had horrible contracts as well, not including Shaq/Marion, who weren't franchise players.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But we actually HAD two franchise players! Nash and Amare both were franchise players, and Amare would have been even greater had he not had bad knees. We had Nash for 8 of those 10 years! We also had horrible contracts as well, not including Shaq/Marion, who weren't franchise players.

But colangelo was largely responsible for both. He was completely responsible for Amare who was drafted years before Sarver and it was Colangelo's idea and full court press of Nash which got him here. And even then, Colangelo had to talk Sarver into signing Nash.

 

[KloD]

But colangelo was largely responsible for both. He was completely responsible for Amare who was drafted years before Sarver and it was Colangelo's idea and full court press of Nash which got him here. And even then, Colangelo had to talk Sarver into signing Nash.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't recall the "had to talk him into it" part. I think his point though was with all the complaining that Sarver hasn't brought in a franchise player, there were two with the team for a lot of the years he's owned it. He may not have been the one to get them here, but the Suns were not without during his time. So saying he didn't sign any sounds like we didn't have any and he did sign both to extensions and kept them here.

Let's not forget that the Suns won 29 games the season prior to Sarver taking over. They had that idiot Marbury and Penny (2 horrible additions and I just freaking hated Marbury and it killed me to have him on the Suns and Penny...yeah). They had the 7th pick and took Deng and gave him away. I know folks like to blame Sarver for that, but the fact is he didn't take over the team until AFTER that draft. He did sign Nash, you say he had to be talked into it, I don't remember it that way. But, yes Jerry was still the GM and he brought him here as it's the GM's job to do.

Look, Sarver made some bad mistakes, but it's his team. He also has put together a nice front office and hired a good coach. I know you are on board with the idea that maybe he's learned and isn't going to be as crappy as some owners who never try to build a winner. He listened to the wrong folks and walked into team that had success his first year, he didn't know how to build on it and certainly had bad advice with regards to youth and developing players for the future. I hope and think that's changed.

 

[Truesilver]

Draft is a Crapshoot

I can't believe that some of you guys were ready to disregard last season's accomplishment as nothing just because we didn't win a championship. I am speaking up because I couldn't disagree more. Last years turnaround may the turning point in the fortune of this franchise and set us on a winning path for a long time. You definitely won't win championships if you don't achieve the playoffs first.

For those who believe that tanking would be good for the franchise, I have found this detailed article from grantland with regards the history of past drafts.

grantland.com/features/nba-draft-crapshoot-repick-1995

From this article, we can see that drafting high doesn't guarantee franchise players. Did anyone forget Paul George or Kawhi Leonard. Both are well on their way to become franchise players and they were drafted past the Top 10. Heck even Amare was drafted only in 9th spot...

 

[elindholm]

Come on, spam from Grantland? You guys should be better than that. Simmons, I'm ashamed of you. Embarrassing.

 

[Truesilver]

Dude, no need to be rude. I was just sharing an article that I find very informative. I'd appreciate it if you take the time to read it before lambasting me.

 

[elindholm]

Dude, no need to be rude. I was just sharing an article that I find very informative.

Your first-ever post is a weak-hearted insult that we're all clueless, followed by a plug for a Grantland article? Okay.

I'd appreciate it if you take the time to read it before lambasting me.

Yes, of course you would; that's obvious.

 

[Truesilver]

Huh?? Where did I insult or attack any of you? Did I call anyone out or did I call names? In fact, I was just stating that I disagree with some of your viewpoints specifically DarenG's position, that is all and I tried to back it up with a draft article reviewing the results of the past decade's draft, considering that he posted statistics about the chances of landing a franchise player in the draft.

I don't even know how you came into the conversation... Dude, chillax, definitely not the treatment I was expecting to my first posts.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can't believe that some of you guys were ready to disregard last season's accomplishment as nothing just because we didn't win a championship. I am speaking up because I couldn't disagree more. Last years turnaround may the turning point in the fortune of this franchise and set us on a winning path for a long time. You definitely won't win championships if you don't achieve the playoffs first.

For those who believe that tanking would be good for the franchise, I have found this detailed article from grantland with regards the history of past drafts.

grantland.com/features/nba-draft-crapshoot-repick-1995

From this article, we can see that drafting high doesn't guarantee franchise players. Did anyone forget Paul George or Kawhi Leonard. Both are well on their way to become franchise players and they were drafted past the Top 10. Heck even Amare was drafted only in 9th spot...

Truesilver, welcome aboard. Usually the audience is not this tough especially on a newcomer.

I think there is something in the air tonight coming off the draft and entering the free agency period.

 

[SirStefan32]

Huh?? Where did I insult or attack any of you? Did I call anyone out or did I call names? In fact, I was just stating that I disagree with some of your viewpoints specifically DarenG's position, that is all and I tried to back it up with a draft article reviewing the results of the past decade's draft, considering that he posted statistics about the chances of landing a franchise player in the draft.

I don't even know how you came into the conversation... Dude, chillax, definitely not the treatment I was expecting to my first posts.

Don't take it personally. We are a tight bunch here, as the core of this board has been here for 12-13 years, so every now and then we give new guys a hard time. Welcome to the board and looking forward to reading more from you.

 

[sunsfan88]

I can't believe that some of you guys were ready to disregard last season's accomplishment as nothing just because we didn't win a championship. I am speaking up because I couldn't disagree more. Last years turnaround may the turning point in the fortune of this franchise and set us on a winning path for a long time. You definitely won't win championships if you don't achieve the playoffs first.

For those who believe that tanking would be good for the franchise, I have found this detailed article from grantland with regards the history of past drafts.

grantland.com/features/nba-draft-crapshoot-repick-1995

From this article, we can see that drafting high doesn't guarantee franchise players. Did anyone forget Paul George or Kawhi Leonard. Both are well on their way to become franchise players and they were drafted past the Top 10. Heck even Amare was drafted only in 9th spot...

Dude, no need to be rude. I was just sharing an article that I find very informative. I'd appreciate it if you take the time to read it before lambasting me.

Huh?? Where did I insult or attack any of you? Did I call anyone out or did I call names? In fact, I was just stating that I disagree with some of your viewpoints specifically DarenG's position, that is all and I tried to back it up with a draft article reviewing the results of the past decade's draft, considering that he posted statistics about the chances of landing a franchise player in the draft.

I don't even know how you came into the conversation... Dude, chillax, definitely not the treatment I was expecting to my first posts.

I sure hope you didn't come here because you heard the rumor about LeBron and Melo possibly coming here. Would hate to see you disappointed if/when they sign elsewhere.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I sure hope you didn't come here because you heard the rumor about LeBron and Melo possibly coming here. Would hate to see you disappointed if/when they sign elsewhere.

There's not a single mention of Lebron or Melo in those comments. His initial post was about those that are pissed because we didn't tank last year. All too often we fail to roll out the welcome mat to visitors, I don't see the reasoning for that behavior. Even if he were a Lebron or Melo fanboy he deserves the chance to show his colors before being called out on it. JMO.

Steve