Drafting an OG

[Duckjake]

And we also have DJ Young and Batiste. We could also pick up UDFA's and isn't Porkchop Womack still on the team?

All the above is beyond meh and not a long term solution. That's why I think the Cards will draft an OG at some point this year. Need to get younger and better and give us hope that we don't end up with $7 a mil plus cap hit on College in the upcoming years.

If we truly follow a BPA philosophy in the draft then a deep OG pool will most likely at some point allign our pick with an OG.

Vermont stating that we absolutely will not take any OG unless his name is DeCastro is what I disagree with. Now if we take Decastro then I highly doubt we take another OG but never say never.

D.J. Young and Batiste are Tackles. But you can't afford much more than "meh" as backups because of the salary cap.

Cards should just find a way to keep Lutui.

 

[Cardiac]

D.J. Young and Batiste are Tackles. But you can't afford much more than "meh" as backups because of the salary cap.

Cards should just find a way to keep Lutui.

Well Batiste did fill in for College when he went down for a game.

You right that you can't afford more than meh veteran players at back up because of the CAP that's why you draft them.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I am wondering out loud whether we all get so wrapped up in the importance (or lack thereof) of various positions that we tend to overlook pure football talent ; preferring, instead to follow "old rules" and conventional wisdom that say: "You never draft this kind of player or that kind of player - or according to this principle or that principle.

Meanwhile, teams like New England (or Pittsburgh with their OLB's) zig when everyone else prefers to zag - and eat everyone's lunch.

DeCastro is DeCastro (& not just "a guard.")

Keuchly is Keuchly (& not just some big, ol' dumb prototypical MLB).

Just sayin'.

excellent observation

 

[Duckjake]

Well Batiste did fill in for College when he went down for a game.

You right that you can't afford more than meh veteran players at back up because of the CAP that's why you draft them.

No problem with that if you are drafting eventual replacements for the starters. But I can't see drafting players to be backup offensive linemen. Which I don't think you were advocating.

Right now I would like to see the Cards get that G from Miami Ohio U Brandon Brooks especially if they could get him in round 4. He looks like a 2-3 year development project with high upside and with both Snyder and Colledge 30 years old could be ready just in time to step in for one of them.

Question on Brooks: Is he too big for the Cards scheme. Still can't believe a guy that Walterfootball has at 6'5" 345 ran a 4.98 forty. Brooks, #56, also played some at Left Tackle for the Redhawks.

http://www.patriots.com/media-cente...Brooks-G/a452a7e1-dc63-4a93-8988-2ee1e0a8e012

 

[Catfish]

With all the talk of DeCastro, I thought I'd look back at the last 10 drafts to see where the first OG was selected. Only 6 of the 10 years have yielded a first round pick used on OG. The average draft spot for the first OG taken was 32.3. Only once was a guard taken in the top 20. Only one has been what I would call a dominant player, and that is Logan Mankins. Ben Grubbs, Davin Joseph, and Eric Steinbach have all been very good players but, to me, they are not game changers, or impact players. Here's the list:
2011: Danny Watkins, 23 by Philadelphia
2010: Mike Iupati, 17 by SF
2009: Andy Levitre, 51 by Buffalo
2008: Chilo Rachal, 39 by SF
2007: Ben Gruubs, 29 by Baltimore
2006: Davin Joseph, 23 by TB
2005: Logan Mankins, 32 by NE
2004: Justin Smiley, 46 by SF
2003: Eric Steinbach, 33 by Cincinnati
2002: Kendall Simmons, 30 by Pittsburgh

Is DeCastro going to be head and shoulders better than those guys? We don't know but he damn well better be if any team takes him in the top 10-15. I'm going by memory, but it seems like Joseph was the highest rated prospect out of that group, probably very comparable to DeCastro, and he was the 23rd pick. But the fact remains, that none of those players have had the impact of a top pass rusher, WR, CB, QB(obviously), or any other position for that matter. Which is why, while I like DeCstro, the Cards can get more help by "hitting" on a player from a more impactful position. The key though, is hitting on the player. DeCastro is probably a safe pick in that you know what you're getting. I'd rather take a chance on a guy, say Ingram, that can have a much more profound impact on the game.

Cbus-----the main problem with using (long term) past history of draft choices for Guards, is that the game has come so far to a passing game that the draft needs for O-linemen are also going to have to change in order to keep QB's upright. I think we have already seen a trend in drafting Guards higher in the scheme of things in RECENT drafts, and this only projects as continuing until the pass is not so significant in offensive schemes again. That is the problem with using long term trends to justify current needs. Offenses change and needs therefore change too. So long as coaches are as pass-happy as they currently are, I think we will continue to see guards taken more frequently, and higher in the draft than long term trends would indicate.

Your own research points out that the last two drafts had guards going at picks 17 and 23, whereas in the two drafts before that, the first guards went in picks 51 and 39. As needs change, so, (accordingly), will the position that picks are taken change.

 

[Cardiac]

No problem with that if you are drafting eventual replacements for the starters. But I can't see drafting players to be backup offensive linemen. Which I don't think you were advocating.

Thank you as you are correct that's not what I was advocating. Typically a team can find an OG that can start fairly soon in the first 4 or 5 rounds. At some point we need to develop some home grown talent at OG position.

Right now I would like to see the Cards get that G from Miami Ohio U Brandon Brooks especially if they could get him in round 4. He looks like a 2-3 year development project with high upside and with both Snyder and Colledge 30 years old could be ready just in time to step in for one of them.

Question on Brooks: Is he too big for the Cards scheme. Still can't believe a guy that Walterfootball has at 6'5" 345 ran a 4.98 forty. Brooks, #56, also played some at Left Tackle for the Redhawks.

http://www.patriots.com/media-cente...Brooks-G/a452a7e1-dc63-4a93-8988-2ee1e0a8e012

Rd4 might be a bit early for a 2 plus developmental player but that's just nit picking on my part.

 

[Duckjake]

Rd4 might be a bit early for a 2 plus developmental player but that's just nit picking on my part.

That's where most of the draft sites are projecting Brooks. 3rd or 4th round. But playing at Miami Ohio and reading the analysis of him I'd say he'd be best if allowed a couple of years to develop.

 

[Totally_Red]

The Cardinals have NO elite players on their offensive line. You could even make an argument that NONE of the players are even above average. David DeCastro changes that. None of the other offensive linemen available at #13 do. He projects to be well above average, possibly even pro-bowl caliber.

The 64,000 dollar question is: does he elevate the rest of the O-line or not? I don't profess to know, but other than QB, I believe offensive line is THE weakest unit on the team. Drafting David DeCastro and plugging him at right guard for the next five years could go some way toward elevating the unit. That's why I hope 'we' draft him.

 

[Duckjake]

The Cardinals have NO elite players on their offensive line. You could even make an argument that NONE of the players are even above average. David DeCastro changes that. None of the other offensive linemen available at #13 do. He projects to be well above average, possibly even pro-bowl caliber.

The 64,000 dollar question is: does he elevate the rest of the O-line or not? I don't profess to know, but other than QB, I believe offensive line is THE weakest unit on the team. Drafting David DeCastro and plugging him at right guard for the next five years could go some way toward elevating the unit. That's why I hope 'we' draft him.

But there are several elite offensive linemen that were drafted in the 4th and 5th rounds. Why are none of our guys elite? Ever? I think it is the coaching and that the Cards have some strange compulsion to change their offensive line every year. 2008 and 2009 are the only two seasons since the advent of free agency that the Cards had basically the same 5 guys playing almost every game. People talk about how Kolb and/or Skelton would be much better if we had a better offensive line but never mention that consistency in talking about Kurt Warner's sudden rise from the ashes behind those 5 guys. It's always Warner did it all by himself.

The Cards drafted Leonard Davis with the 2nd overall pick in 2001 and then didn't play him at the same position two years in a row until 2005. RG,RT,RG,LT. That's nuts. Adam Snyder in his interview after signing with the Cards stated that his constantly moving around on the oline was a problem and how much better it was for him last year when he played only RG.

I'm not a big fan of stand around Levi Brown but I can live with him staying because it keeps C,LG,LT intact for the coming season.

 

[Chopper0080]

Some good points here, but whether this is a deep class for guards or not really doesn't matter for us. In free agency, we've picked up 2 solid guards, who are signed for the next 4 plus years. DeCastro will be picked if the team thinks he is the best available player, and Snyder will be moved to RT or the "6th man" because he can play everywhere.

If we don't take Decastro, we will not take a guard, period. We are set UNLESS we take him, because he is good enough to move other pieces around, and he would be the anchor for years to come. If we don't take him, we will take a tackle later in the draft, not a guard.

Everyone knows my position on this, so as far as the value of David DeCastro, I will leave that unsaid.

However, I could not disagree more with the above statements. We signed two FA OGs, but that doesn't make them good players. Colledge and Snyder are in the same category as Rex Hadnot in a lot of ways. The Cardinals would prove themselves rather stupid if they decided to pass on drafting an OG in the deepest OG class is recent history.

Eventually you will realize that if you want to cook a great meal, you have to shop at the grocery store rather than a garbage can for the ingredients.

 

[Duckjake]

Everyone knows my position on this, so as far as the value of David DeCastro, I will leave that unsaid.

However, I could not disagree more with the above statements. We signed two FA OGs, but that doesn't make them good players. Colledge and Snyder are in the same category as Rex Hadnot in a lot of ways. The Cardinals would prove themselves rather stupid if they decided to pass on drafting an OG in the deepest OG class is recent history.

Eventually you will realize that if you want to cook a great meal, you have to shop at the grocery store rather than a garbage can for the ingredients.

It would also help to actually have a chef on staff.

 

[Chopper0080]

It would also help to actually have a chef on staff.

True. I DO NOT believe in Russ Grimm, but at some point, we have to give him legitimate talent to work with, and Brandon Keith isn't it.

 

[Duckjake]

True. I DO NOT believe in Russ Grimm, but at some point, we have to give him legitimate talent to work with, and Brandon Keith isn't it.

And as of now Brandon Keith isn't even on the team. We really have no one qualified to play Right Tackle. Brown, Colledge, Sendlein, DeCastro and a huge hole.

 

[joeshmo]

True. I DO NOT believe in Russ Grimm, but at some point, we have to give him legitimate talent to work with, and Brandon Keith isn't it.

True, but at the same time it is also Russ Grimm hand picking his own talent. So he cant complain that we are not getting him the talent if it is he who is picking the talent.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

If we truly follow a BPA philosophy in the draft then a deep OG pool will most likely at some point allign our pick with an OG.

Vermont stating that we absolutely will not take any OG unless his name is DeCastro is what I disagree with. Now if we take Decastro then I highly doubt we take another OG but never say never.

The "following BPA" point you make is valid. If there is an OG rated vastly higher than anyone else on the board, we certainly could take him. I am almost always in favor of BPA, because the draft really is for the future - who knows where you will be weak a couple years down the road.

But, unless something really drops to us, I think that having signed our starting guards 4 and 5 years out, I really don't see us picking a developmental player this year - he'd be a free agent by the time we would likely need him. As others have said Bridges, Batiste or a number of others could/would serve as a backup. Or we could pick up one of the left over FAs after the draft. For example, I still don't think Adam Scott has signed. We could even pick Hadnot back up at vet minimum.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

But there are several elite offensive linemen that were drafted in the 4th and 5th rounds. Why are none of our guys elite? Ever? I think it is the coaching and that the Cards have some strange compulsion to change their offensive line every year. 2008 and 2009 are the only two seasons since the advent of free agency that the Cards had basically the same 5 guys playing almost every game.

I don't see where making changes to an awful offensive line is a "strange complusion". I would be very concerned if they were just leaving it the same.

Certainly you can argue the point that others have metophorically (and hilariously) pointed out that we need a new chef, or better ingredients. But you can't just leave it the same.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't see where making changes to an awful offensive line is a "strange complusion". I would be very concerned if they were just leaving it the same.

Certainly you can argue the point that others have metophorically (and hilariously) pointed out that we need a new chef, or better ingredients. But you can't just leave it the same.

But you can leave it the same. Look at most of the successful teams in the NFL they have guys who have started on their offensive line for years. Guys all but the most hard core NFL fans have never heard of before.

The ONE time the Cards left their offensive line intact, 2009, and there were no elite players on that line, the Cards won more regular season games than they had in any season since the 1970s. I know the usual response is that Warner is the only reason the line looked good but then he is listed as the reason for the new stadium and why the Cards were able to get Larry Fitzgerald and the invention of Air Conditioning.

Look at the Giants two Guards. David Diehl has been their starter since 2003. Chris Snee since 2004. Household names both.

 

[Chopper0080]

True, but at the same time it is also Russ Grimm hand picking his own talent. So he cant complain that we are not getting him the talent if it is he who is picking the talent.

Who has he handpicked? Levi Brown...and? Brandon Keith? Anthony Batiste? Wehaven't drafted an offensive lineman in what, two years? I have a hard time imagining Grimm advocating for Dan Williams. Personally I believe Grimm is all rep, but he hasn't been given much to work with.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The more I look at it, the more I think the Cards are going to give a long hard look to Cordy Glenn. He has the versatility to play OG or RT and RT is the gaping hole right now. I don't think DeCastro is seen as a guy who can play RT and that's where Glenn will have an advantage. Glenn is also alot bigger, which the Cards like in a tackle.

 

[kerouac9]

Who has he handpicked? Levi Brown...and? Brandon Keith? Anthony Batiste? Wehaven't drafted an offensive lineman in what, two years? I have a hard time imagining Grimm advocating for Dan Williams. Personally I believe Grimm is all rep, but he hasn't been given much to work with.

He handpicked Lyle Sendlein, maybe the most consistent and most improved offensive lineman the Cards have had under Whisenhunt. Jurecki told a story last week that they had Sendlein rated so low that a scout wanted him taken off the board altogether, and Grimm stepped in and demanded that they keep him on the board until he eventually was signed as a priority free agent.

The players that Grimm uses aren't garbage (with the exception of Faneca). Grimm's system is garbage, and it's not going to change while he remains here.

 

[kerouac9]

The more I look at it, the more I think the Cards are going to give a long hard look to Cordy Glenn. He has the versatility to play OG or RT and RT is the gaping hole right now. I don't think DeCastro is seen as a guy who can play RT and that's where Glenn will have an advantage. Glenn is also alot bigger, which the Cards like in a tackle.

I love Cordy Glenn. If DeCastro and Ingram are off the board, as well as the wide receiver, he's my next choice. I think that with a year of seasoning and in John Lott's strength and conditioning program, he could be the left tackle that we wanted Levi Brown to be.

 

[Chopper0080]

He handpicked Lyle Sendlein, maybe the most consistent and most improved offensive lineman the Cards have had under Whisenhunt. Jurecki told a story last week that they had Sendlein rated so low that a scout wanted him taken off the board altogether, and Grimm stepped in and demanded that they keep him on the board until he eventually was signed as a priority free agent.

The players that Grimm uses aren't garbage (with the exception of Faneca). Grimm's system is garbage, and it's not going to change while he remains here.

OK, here are the offenisive linemen the Cardinals have added since 2007 when Whis and Co. came aboard.

2007
Levi Brown - OT: 1st round pick.
Mike Gandy - OT: Low cost FA
Al Johnson - OC: Oft injured FA
Qasim Mitchell - OT: FA
Lyle Sendlein - OC: UDFA

2008
Scott Peters - OG: FA
Brandon Keith - OT: 7th round pick
Elliott Vallejo - OT: UDFA

2009
Oliver Ross - OT: Re-signed FA
Ben Claxton - OC/OG: FA
Jeremy Bridges - OT: FA
Herman Johnson - OT: 5th round pick
Trevor Canfield - OG: 7th round pick

2010
Rex Hadnot - OG: FA
Anthony Batiste - OT: FA

2011
Daryn Colledge - OG: FA
Duece Lutui - OG: Re-signed FA
Ryan Bartholomew - OC: UDFA
DJ Young - OT: UDFA
Chris Stewart - OG: UDFA (Pre league year addition)

2012
Levi Brown - OT: Re-signed FA
Adam Snyder - OG/OT: FA

In the end, if the 5.5 offseasons that Whis and Grimm have been at this, they really haven't given him much to work with. They have drafted 4 players in the draft, one 1st rounder, one 5th rounder, and two 7th round picks. They have been more active adding through free agency, though only Mike Gandy has been a solid starter. Neither Al Johnson, Qasim Mitchell, Scott Peters, Ben Claxton, Jeremy Bridges, Rex Hadnot, Anthony Batiste, nor Daryn Colledge have been anything special. We have also re-signed Oliver Ross, Duece Lutui, and Levi Brown, though neither Ross nor Lutui survived more than one more season.

Again, I am not a Russ Grimm fan, but how can you expect much from this lot? 4 drafted players in 5 offseasons, and only 1 above the 5th round, and two above the 7th round. You almost have to give him credit for developing a solid OC from an UDFA in Lyle Sendlein, and getting the most out of an aging vet in Mike Gandy. Garbage to work with = garbage production.

 

[Chopper0080]

I love Cordy Glenn. If DeCastro and Ingram are off the board, as well as the wide receiver, he's my next choice. I think that with a year of seasoning and in John Lott's strength and conditioning program, he could be the left tackle that we wanted Levi Brown to be.

I think the Cards are targeting 4 players at #13, and they are, in order: Ingram, DeCastro, Michael Floyd and Cordy Glenn. Though I wonder if Glenn might leap frog Floyd come draft time.

 

[kerouac9]

OK, here are the offenisive linemen the Cardinals have added since 2007 when Whis and Co. came aboard.

2007
Levi Brown - OT: 1st round pick.
Mike Gandy - OT: Low cost FA
Al Johnson - OC: Oft injured FA
Qasim Mitchell - OT: FA
Lyle Sendlein - OC: UDFA

2008
Scott Peters - OG: FA
Brandon Keith - OT: 7th round pick
Elliott Vallejo - OT: UDFA

2009
Oliver Ross - OT: Re-signed FA
Ben Claxton - OC/OG: FA
Jeremy Bridges - OT: FA
Herman Johnson - OT: 5th round pick
Trevor Canfield - OG: 7th round pick

2010
Rex Hadnot - OG: FA
Anthony Batiste - OT: FA

2011
Daryn Colledge - OG: FA
Duece Lutui - OG: Re-signed FA
Ryan Bartholomew - OC: UDFA
DJ Young - OT: UDFA
Chris Stewart - OG: UDFA (Pre league year addition)

2012
Levi Brown - OT: Re-signed FA
Adam Snyder - OG/OT: FA

In the end, if the 5.5 offseasons that Whis and Grimm have been at this, they really haven't given him much to work with. They have drafted 4 players in the draft, one 1st rounder, one 5th rounder, and two 7th round picks. They have been more active adding through free agency, though only Mike Gandy has been a solid starter. Neither Al Johnson, Qasim Mitchell, Scott Peters, Ben Claxton, Jeremy Bridges, Rex Hadnot, Anthony Batiste, nor Daryn Colledge have been anything special. We have also re-signed Oliver Ross, Duece Lutui, and Levi Brown, though neither Ross nor Lutui survived more than one more season.

Again, I am not a Russ Grimm fan, but how can you expect much from this lot? 4 drafted players in 5 offseasons, and only 1 above the 5th round, and two above the 7th round. You almost have to give him credit for developing a solid OC from an UDFA in Lyle Sendlein, and getting the most out of an aging vet in Mike Gandy. Garbage to work with = garbage production.

Who do you think is agitating for these players? Grimm is Whis's BFF. Do you think if Grimm said, "All five of these guys stink. You have to help me out or make sure I don't get fired," that Whis would say, "Suck it."

Grimm was a terrible coach at pass protection in Pittsburgh, as well. You weren't here when Grimm got hired, but Joeshmo and I were the only ones pointing out that Pittsburgh's OL was consistently among the worst in the NFL in pass pro. No one here wanted to hear that. It's just that in Pittsburgh he was given 1st and 2nd round picks to work with that he couldn't screw up (too much). He had 4 1st and 2nd round picks starting on that offensive line!

Grimm made Brandon Keith his personal project for three years. You think that Ron Wolfley was pimping him for two straight years because that was his own opinion? Of course not. Then Brandon Keith gets immediately put on roller skates by Mario Williams and he gets shuffled off the stage.

Grimm's gotten plenty of NFL-talented players to work with. Ross, Bridges, Hadnot, Gandy, Colledge have all shown that they can start and play in the NFL. Grimm's system makes it look like they don't belong on an NFL field.

We're not paying Russ Grimm $2.5 million a year to take 1st round offensive linemen and get them to play like Levi Brown has the last five years. I don't want to throw more good money and draft picks after bad.

 

[Duckjake]

Wow. Alan Faneca was so bad he didn't even make the list.