DX Profile of the Suns

[Irish]

My main complaint with Diaw is his very poor rebounding stats on a per minute basis. If he has this kind of hops, then it is even more puzzling.

2005-06 6.9 rpg in 35.5 minutes - 0.194 per minute
2006-07 4.3 rpg in 31.1 minutes - 0.138 per minute
2007-08 4.6 rpg in 28.1 minutes - 0.164 per minute

Here are some other Suns on the boards:

Stoudemire 9.1 rpg in 33.9 minutes - 0.268
O'Neal 10.6 rpg in 28.7 minutes - 0.369
Skinner 3.6 rpg in 12.8 minutes - 0.28

Marion 9.9 rpg in 37.6 minutes - 0.263 (stats with the Suns)
Barnes 4.4 rpg in 19.4 minutes - 0.227 (pretty good for an SF)

I attribute some of Diaw's rebounding issues to his limited upper body strength. Also, I'm not sure he's been given a lot of training in how to be a good rebounder such as in areas like positioning, anticipation, attacking ball, etc. In any case, he needs to really step up his board work.

 

[nowagimp]

My main complaint with Diaw is his very poor rebounding stats on a per minute basis. If he has this kind of hops, then it is even more puzzling.

2005-06 6.9 rpg in 35.5 minutes - 0.194 per minute
2006-07 4.3 rpg in 31.1 minutes - 0.138 per minute
2007-08 4.6 rpg in 28.1 minutes - 0.164 per minute

Here are some other Suns on the boards:

Stoudemire 9.1 rpg in 33.9 minutes - 0.268
O'Neal 10.6 rpg in 28.7 minutes - 0.369
Skinner 3.6 rpg in 12.8 minutes - 0.28

Marion 9.9 rpg in 37.6 minutes - 0.263 (stats with the Suns)
Barnes 4.4 rpg in 19.4 minutes - 0.227 (pretty good for an SF)

I attribute some of Diaw's rebounding issues to his limited upper body strength. Also, I'm not sure he's been given a lot of training in how to be a good rebounder such as in areas like positioning, anticipation, attacking ball, etc. In any case, he needs to really step up his board work.

Diaw was one of the few suns bigs before shaq arrived that actually put his body on an opponent when the ball went up. Amare and shawn would go after the ball. Skinner was inconsistent at putting his body on the closest man. Sure they get more rebounds per minute, but they dont rebound with fundamental principles. Team rebounding is about controlling space and you cant do that when you follow your first instinct and go for the ball as opposed to putting a body on the opponents crashing the glass. If three guys rebound and one puts a body on somebody, the two who for for the ball will have better stats, but team rebounding will be poor. Somebody on the team must box out, and it should be everyone on the front line. the suns rebounding problems, giving up all those offensive boards were due more to amare and marion than to diaw. this is because when you dont put a body on anyone(or in amares case when you wont use a low stance to control space), they just run into the lane area and grab the board. When you see opponents running from the top of the circle to grab an oboard, you know the defensive rebounding sucks.

 

[Irish]

Diaw was one of the few suns bigs before shaq arrived that actually put his body on an opponent when the ball went up. Amare and shawn would go after the ball. Skinner was inconsistent at putting his body on the closest man. Sure they get more rebounds per minute, but they dont rebound with fundamental principles. Team rebounding is about controlling space and you cant do that when you follow your first instinct and go for the ball as opposed to putting a body on the opponents crashing the glass. If three guys rebound and one puts a body on somebody, the two who for for the ball will have better stats, but team rebounding will be poor. Somebody on the team must box out, and it should be everyone on the front line. the suns rebounding problems, giving up all those offensive boards were due more to amare and marion than to diaw. this is because when you dont put a body on anyone(or in amares case when you wont use a low stance to control space), they just run into the lane area and grab the board. When you see opponents running from the top of the circle to grab an oboard, you know the defensive rebounding sucks.

That's reasonable if that's the explaination. But you'd think he'd get more rebounds than guys playing the wing.

Rebounding is just one thing we hope Cartright can help the team with. He's got his work cut out for him.

 

[shazaam6]

You're right nowagimp
Few Suns box out. KT used to, Diaw does seal off his guy from rebounds, I think Shaq does, I don't remember Amare doing it at all.

 

[cly2tw]

You're right nowagimp
Few Suns box out. KT used to, Diaw does seal off his guy from rebounds, I think Shaq does, I don't remember Amare doing it at all.

Amare has been trying to box out lately. But it's still so mechanical, sometimes it looked comical that the opponents could easily trick him into stumbling backwards. It's a long way for him to getting used to it.

 

[Irish]

Diaw was one of the few suns bigs before shaq arrived that actually put his body on an opponent when the ball went up. Amare and shawn would go after the ball. Skinner was inconsistent at putting his body on the closest man. Sure they get more rebounds per minute, but they dont rebound with fundamental principles. Team rebounding is about controlling space and you cant do that when you follow your first instinct and go for the ball as opposed to putting a body on the opponents crashing the glass. If three guys rebound and one puts a body on somebody, the two who for for the ball will have better stats, but team rebounding will be poor. Somebody on the team must box out, and it should be everyone on the front line. the suns rebounding problems, giving up all those offensive boards were due more to amare and marion than to diaw. this is because when you dont put a body on anyone(or in amares case when you wont use a low stance to control space), they just run into the lane area and grab the board. When you see opponents running from the top of the circle to grab an oboard, you know the defensive rebounding sucks.

It struck me that these comments may be even more relevant when looking at Robin's stats. His rebounding numbers were not that impressive at 5.7 rpg. However, his team had a center in Brook who averaged 8.2 rpg and four guys who averaged over 4 rpg including Lawrence hill at 4.8 rpg.

Robin had 2.5 rpg fewer total rebounds than Brook, but only 0.3 fewer offensive rebounds (and far more per minute). If his role was blocking out, it would explain in part why his defensive rebounding was not that impressive. But without having to block out, he was a decent offensive rebounder.
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Back to Boris, even if his blocking out was why his defensive stats were low, that does not explain his weak offensive rebounding of just 1.2 orpg.

Diaw .043 per minute
Stoudemire 0.068 per minute
O'Neal 0.084 per minute
Skinner 0.079 per minute
Tucker 0.089 per minute
Hill 0.035 per minute
Barnes 0.067 per minute

BTW, Marion's offensive rebounding with the Suns last season was very unimpressive.

2004-05 2.9 in 38.8 minutes - 0.075
2005-06 3.1 in 40.3 minutes - 0.077
2006-07 2.2 in 37.6 minutes - 0.059
2007-08 1.8 in 36.4 minutes - 0.049

 

[BC867]

BTW, Marion's offensive rebounding with the Suns last season was very unimpressive.

2004-05 2.9 in 38.8 minutes - 0.075
2005-06 3.1 in 40.3 minutes - 0.077
2006-07 2.2 in 37.6 minutes - 0.059
2007-08 1.8 in 36.4 minutes - 0.049

A power forward camped out by the 3-point line. One who was an opportunity rebounder, rather than a power rebounder, just as he was an opportunity scorer, with hardly any offensive plays run for him.

And it got worse every year, as the stats bear out.

The results proved the folly of it. Any team whose leading rebounder (statistically) is a Small Forward playing Power Forward is not going to be a force during post-seasons.

 

[Irish]

A power forward camped out by the 3-point line. One who was an opportunity rebounder, rather than a power rebounder, just as he was an opportunity scorer, with hardly any offensive plays run for him.

And it got worse every year, as the stats bear out.

The results proved the folly of it. Any team whose leading rebounder (statistically) is a Small Forward playing Power Forward is not going to be a force during post-seasons.

Since I wasn't looking for it, I was surprised at how much dec Marion's offensive rebounding had declined. He was so good at put backs when he did get the ball over his career, I hadn't noticed.

Oddly enough, Marion's rebounding jumped when he went to Miami despite the fact that he's on the wing mostly. In Phoenix, he averaged 9.9 rpg in 36.4 minutes but 11.2 rpg in Miami. Interetingly, the improvement was almost entirely on the offensive end in that he went from 1.8 orpg to 3.1 orpg in Miami.

Your theory about the three point shooting seems to be supported by the stats. In Phoenix this season, Shawn took 167 three point attempts in 47 games (3.55 attempts per game). In Miami he took 31 attempts in 16 games (1.92 per game). Of course with a 25.8% percentage, it looks like Riley saw enough of that nonsense to shut him down. Starting Feb 29 Shawn in the last 8 games he played, took only 10 threes. Of course the fact that he hit only one of them didn't help.

As a side note, Hill accepted that he was not a good three point shooter. He took 39 in Nov and 27 in Dec. Hill took only 38 the rest of the season. Marion never stopped in his years with the Suns no matter how badly he was shooting.