Early Doucet

Duckjake

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:shrug: I'm an unapologetic Early Doucet fan. I'd still rather have him on the field than Dominique Byrd, who had his own problems holding on to the ball in preseason. It's not like Jerry Rice is sitting on the sidelines and Early Doucet is taking PT away from him.

Doucet is the only WR who isn't bellyaching to the officials after every incomplete pass. That's enough for me to stand with him. I'm fine with Doucet yielding time to Michael Floyd. I hope that Floyd takes his job.

But I hope more that we see fewer 4 WR sets altogether in the second half of the season.

Dominique Bryd is a TE how does he compare to Doucet? I'd rather have someone younger taking that spot who has some upside and might turn into a Jerry Rice or even a Pat Tilley than Doucet who has already shown what he is and will never be any better. Of course with Floyd coming on we may not have to see Doucet's less than mediocre self on the field anymore.
 

kerouac9

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Dominique Bryd is a TE how does he compare to Doucet? I'd rather have someone younger taking that spot who has some upside and might turn into a Jerry Rice or even a Pat Tilley than Doucet who has already shown what he is and will never be any better.

Sorry. LaRon Byrd. I don't think there are any Jerry Rice's out there in the free agent market.

I'm fine with Early Doucet as a #3 or #4 WR. Part of the solution, not part of the problem. 39 targets, six drops. :shrug: Only tough receiver on the team. Maybe the only tough player on the offense.
 

Duckjake

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Sorry. LaRon Byrd. I don't think there are any Jerry Rice's out there in the free agent market.

I'm fine with Early Doucet as a #3 or #4 WR. Part of the solution, not part of the problem. 39 targets, six drops. :shrug: Only tough receiver on the team. Maybe the only tough player on the offense.

Tough? The only thing tough about Doucet is that it's tough to get him to get open and catch the ball. 6 drops in 39 targets? That's almost one out of every 6 targets!

We don't know what LaRon Byrd or Isaiah Williams could do in a real game. Victor Cruz was the Giants 4th WR in 2011 and didn't have a catch in his first 5 games in the NFL in 2010 and who knows if he would have ever had a real shot if Manningham and Dixon hadn't been injured.
 

52brandon

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1. Kevin Kolb's health and salary
2. John Skelton's inconsistency
3. Ryan Williams' ability to contribute anything
4. Beanie Wells' ability to stay healthy
5. Todd Heap still being on the roster
6. Jeff King's complete disappearance
7. The defense's complete inability to get a pass rush from 4 rushers
8. The sub-par play of our highest-paid active offensive linemen (the guards)

Sorry. Early Doucet is no more than the 9th most important issue facing the Arizona Cardinals. He's the #4 WR and the #5 passing target on most plays.
add Skelton's health to his list too. He missed as much time as Kolb this season
:shrug: I'm an unapologetic Early Doucet fan. I'd still rather have him on the field than Dominique Byrd, who had his own problems holding on to the ball in preseason. It's not like Jerry Rice is sitting on the sidelines and Early Doucet is taking PT away from him.

Doucet is the only WR who isn't bellyaching to the officials after every incomplete pass. That's enough for me to stand with him. I'm fine with Doucet yielding time to Michael Floyd. I hope that Floyd takes his job.

But I hope more that we see fewer 4 WR sets altogether in the second half of the season.
why not give Byrd the shot? There's no point in even having the kid on the team when we have no idea how he would play in a regular game. Doucet has been unimpressive. Worst case, Byrd sucks and you get yourself an "I told you so" thread. But maybe he's good, and we get another WR that will go up for balls (because we all know Skelton likes to test his WR's vertical) across the middle knowing he's gonna get crushed
Sorry. LaRon Byrd. I don't think there are any Jerry Rice's out there in the free agent market.

I'm fine with Early Doucet as a #3 or #4 WR. Part of the solution, not part of the problem. 39 targets, six drops. :shrug: Only tough receiver on the team. Maybe the only tough player on the offense.
tough? Wasn't he a MAJOR injury concern his first 2-3 seasons? I also don't see him as a part of the solution to be honest, but that's just opinion
 

kerouac9

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add Skelton's health to his list too. He missed as much time as Kolb this season

why not give Byrd the shot? There's no point in even having the kid on the team when we have no idea how he would play in a regular game. Doucet has been unimpressive. Worst case, Byrd sucks and you get yourself an "I told you so" thread. But maybe he's good, and we get another WR that will go up for balls (because we all know Skelton likes to test his WR's vertical) across the middle knowing he's gonna get crushed

tough? Wasn't he a MAJOR injury concern his first 2-3 seasons? I also don't see him as a part of the solution to be honest, but that's just opinion

Skelton's health has been a minor concern this season, but he's making like $280K this year. If Skelton were good, his health would be a bigger issue, but he's not good; it's difficult to see how much worse Ryan Lindley could be at this point. Probably someone worse, but maybe not much, much worse. I don't think the drop-off would be Levi-Brown-to-D'Anthony-Batiste steep.

I'm never going to understand fans who believe that they have a right to evaluate players in games that the coaching staff sees in practice for 100 reps a week. Why isn't Stewart Bradley playing in games? Because he's stinking up the field in practices, most likely. Why aren't Isiah Williams and LaRon Byrd playing? Likely because they can't play special teams, and they haven't earned their spot on the field during the week.

I mean "tough" in the mental sense. I don't know if you can tough out broken bones like Early suffered in his rookie and second years, but I like to see guys get up jawing at defenders. I hate the habit that Larry's picked up of begging at the officials, and I hate that Andre Roberts is doing it now, too.
 

Duckjake

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I'm never going to understand fans who believe that they have a right to evaluate players in games that the coaching staff sees in practice for 100 reps a week. Why isn't Stewart Bradley playing in games? Because he's stinking up the field in practices, most likely. Why aren't Isiah Williams and LaRon Byrd playing? Likely because they can't play special teams, and they haven't earned their spot on the field during the week.

Well I can sure understand it. Because practice is practice. I've played enough sports to know there are people who look good in practice but can't play in games and vice versa. Heck just ask any golfer about the difference between hitting range balls vs hitting real golf balls on the course.

In addition I've seen enough idiots parading around as coaches on the Cards sideline to ever think they always know more than fans who pay attention.
 

kerouac9

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Well I can sure understand it. Because practice is practice. I've played enough sports to know there are people who look good in practice but can't play in games and vice versa. Heck just ask any golfer about the difference between hitting range balls vs hitting real golf balls on the course.

In addition I've seen enough idiots parading around as coaches on the Cards sideline to ever think they always know more than fans who pay attention.

Maybe. But what about all those fans who were paying attention to Steven Williams last preseason, only to have him completely disappear in whatever chances he got in the regular season?

I get it with Early; he's had enough chances that I'm not going to try and shout down people who want to complain about him. He's never going to be as good as I wanted him to be. I don't get it with Stewart Bradley. He's not going to be on the roster next year, and Paris Lenon has been good until last week, basically.
 

52brandon

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Skelton's health has been a minor concern this season, but he's making like $280K this year. If Skelton were good, his health would be a bigger issue, but he's not good; it's difficult to see how much worse Ryan Lindley could be at this point. Probably someone worse, but maybe not much, much worse. I don't think the drop-off would be Levi-Brown-to-D'Anthony-Batiste steep.

I'm never going to understand fans who believe that they have a right to evaluate players in games that the coaching staff sees in practice for 100 reps a week. Why isn't Stewart Bradley playing in games? Because he's stinking up the field in practices, most likely. Why aren't Isiah Williams and LaRon Byrd playing? Likely because they can't play special teams, and they haven't earned their spot on the field during the week.

I mean "tough" in the mental sense. I don't know if you can tough out broken bones like Early suffered in his rookie and second years, but I like to see guys get up jawing at defenders. I hate the habit that Larry's picked up of begging at the officials, and I hate that Andre Roberts is doing it now, too.
regardless of pay, if he's the one running with the 1s and gets hurt, it will be tougher for Lindley to be on the same page as them

you may be right about the coaches and practices. But that was hardly the case last year playing Porter over Acho and Scho. It took an injury for them to get their shot in a game and they took his spot immediately. So I'm a bit skeptical in that evaluation. Powell is another example. STILL not getting any good playing time although he is averaging 2 yards more per carry

as far as toughness, I've dealt with my share of injuries, but I'm also not playing pro football. Getting through a day at work is a lot easier on my body when I'm hurt. But I'm not the topic of discussion here, Doucet is. Why my performance with broken bones was even brought up is beyond me. I could care less about him talking **** to defenders, I don't think it proves anything one way or another. I was talking about toughness, as in the ability to stay healthy
 

kerouac9

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To me, toughness and durability are two different things. I don't question Kevin Kolb's toughness; I question his durability. I don't question Beanie Wells' toughness; I question his durability.

I like to have some nasty players on my offense. It's one of the things I liked about Deuce Lutui's playing through the echo of the whistle. Michael Floyd earned a lot of leash from me when he blew up DRC in the Eagles game. If Levi Brown had a couple of unsportsmanlike conduct penalties on his resume, fans would give him more of a break.

That's one of the reasons I still stand by Early Doucet.
 

52brandon

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To me, toughness and durability are two different things. I don't question Kevin Kolb's toughness; I question his durability. I don't question Beanie Wells' toughness; I question his durability.

I like to have some nasty players on my offense. It's one of the things I liked about Deuce Lutui's playing through the echo of the whistle. Michael Floyd earned a lot of leash from me when he blew up DRC in the Eagles game. If Levi Brown had a couple of unsportsmanlike conduct penalties on his resume, fans would give him more of a break.

That's one of the reasons I still stand by Early Doucet.
I guess I can understand your point of view in terms of toughness vs durability. Your definition of toughness isn't that high of a priority for me. I like them to be aggressive, but Levi surely wouldn't get anymore of a break in my eyes if he racked up MORE penalties
 

az1965

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1. Kevin Kolb's health and salary
2. John Skelton's inconsistency
3. Ryan Williams' ability to contribute anything
4. Beanie Wells' ability to stay healthy
5. Todd Heap still being on the roster
6. Jeff King's complete disappearance
7. The defense's complete inability to get a pass rush from 4 rushers
8. The sub-par play of our highest-paid active offensive linemen (the guards)

Sorry. Early Doucet is no more than the 9th most important issue facing the Arizona Cardinals. He's the #4 WR and the #5 passing target on most plays.
Doucet is #3 and this is the point. He should be #4 or perhaps even inactive.

1. Off season issue
2. Can't do anything about it other than hope he improves as season goes on
3. He is out so does not matter for rest of the season
4. Can't do anything about it other than draft another RB high and cut him - off season issue
5. Off season issue
6. OK - Get him more involved in the schemes... Housler emergence might have to do something
7. OK - But we don't have elite edge rushers so you have to constantly scheme and blitz. Off season issue.
8. Can't do anything about it other than try Kelemete at one of the guard position and hope he does better. Off season issue.
 
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az1965

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:shrug: I'm an unapologetic Early Doucet fan. I'd still rather have him on the field than Dominique Byrd, who had his own problems holding on to the ball in preseason. It's not like Jerry Rice is sitting on the sidelines and Early Doucet is taking PT away from him.

Doucet is the only WR who isn't bellyaching to the officials after every incomplete pass. That's enough for me to stand with him. I'm fine with Doucet yielding time to Michael Floyd. I hope that Floyd takes his job.

But I hope more that we see fewer 4 WR sets altogether in the second half of the season.
When you only have four WR's active and when you are throwing 50+ times a game, Early Doucet becomes very important. All WR's become very important. And so far Doucet is stinking up the joint and hurting the team more than helping. He is totally unreliable right now.
 

az1965

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Sorry. LaRon Byrd. I don't think there are any Jerry Rice's out there in the free agent market.

I'm fine with Early Doucet as a #3 or #4 WR. Part of the solution, not part of the problem. 39 targets, six drops. :shrug: Only tough receiver on the team. Maybe the only tough player on the offense.
And half if not more are 3rd down drops killing drives.
 

kerouac9

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Well I can sure understand it. Because practice is practice. I've played enough sports to know there are people who look good in practice but can't play in games and vice versa. Heck just ask any golfer about the difference between hitting range balls vs hitting real golf balls on the course.

In addition I've seen enough idiots parading around as coaches on the Cards sideline to ever think they always know more than fans who pay attention.

Are there a lot of guys who look awful in practice but look like All Pros when the game is on the line? How are coaches supposed to identify those players?

I'd expect that if you took ANY pro ball player to Kiwanis Park and put him in the batting cage, they're going to rake. If I took a prospect and put him in the batting cage and he's whiffing on half the pitches, I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to trust him against a 98 mph fast ball.

There are lots of guys who look great in practice but fall apart when the games count--take William Powell, for example. But I don't know why a coach would say, "Well, out here on the practice field LaRon Byrd can't compete against Michael Adams, but I'll bet that when he's facing off against Carlos Rogers, he's going to win that battle every time."
 

Duckjake

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Are there a lot of guys who look awful in practice but look like All Pros when the game is on the line? How are coaches supposed to identify those players?

Put them in the game. If he's so bad that you can't play him why is he on your roster?
 

kerouac9

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Put them in the game. If he's so bad that you can't play him why is he on your roster?

Too bad (right now) to play, not too bad to practice. SOMEONE has to pretend to be Golden Tate twice a year. Guys rarely come into the NFL as a finished product; some guys take a year to figure out the playbook (it seems like we make all our WR memorize the responsibilities for all three positions before we make them active on Sundays), plus they have to be able/willing to play special teams.

Guys who can't/won't practice well don't make it very far in the league. Would you put your job on the line by hiring a guy who had a terrible interview because you had a feeling that he could perform in the job once you hired him?
 

Russ Smith

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Are there a lot of guys who look awful in practice but look like All Pros when the game is on the line? How are coaches supposed to identify those players?

I'd expect that if you took ANY pro ball player to Kiwanis Park and put him in the batting cage, they're going to rake. If I took a prospect and put him in the batting cage and he's whiffing on half the pitches, I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to trust him against a 98 mph fast ball.

There are lots of guys who look great in practice but fall apart when the games count--take William Powell, for example. But I don't know why a coach would say, "Well, out here on the practice field LaRon Byrd can't compete against Michael Adams, but I'll bet that when he's facing off against Carlos Rogers, he's going to win that battle every time."

My guess is that Whiz REALLY values players who know what the hell they're supposed to do, even if sometimes they can't physically do it. So he'll play a guy like Lenon who knows the system and is where he's supposed to be most of the time even if occasionally he runs like he's dragging a bus behind him.

A guy like Bradley looks the part but when he's in there he often seems to have no idea where he's supposed to be. In our defense, with Horton's mad scientist approach we've all seen what happens when even one guy screws up, it's often a huge play. So you have to trust the guys you're playing understand the system.

Its why Scho didn't play more last year and was heavily praised by Horton this year, he learned where to be.

Whiz is the same on offense it's why it took Floyd so long to get on the field consistently, he was so often in the wrong place either lining up or running the wrong pattern, Whiz didn't trust him. He's gotten past that now and surprise, he's playing more and showing he's going to be much better than Doucet.

But there is a reason Whiz plays Doucet still, he knows on a big play Early isn't likely to run the wrong way and lead to a pick. The problem is he'll run the right route, and then drop the pass.

Housler went through it last year too not sure of the offense, not always running the route correctly. he's proven he can this year and he's playing.
 

Duckjake

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Too bad (right now) to play, not too bad to practice. SOMEONE has to pretend to be Golden Tate twice a year. Guys rarely come into the NFL as a finished product; some guys take a year to figure out the playbook (it seems like we make all our WR memorize the responsibilities for all three positions before we make them active on Sundays), plus they have to be able/willing to play special teams.

Guys who can't/won't practice well don't make it very far in the league. Would you put your job on the line by hiring a guy who had a terrible interview because you had a feeling that he could perform in the job once you hired him?

That's why they have the PRACTICE SQUAD. :)

There aren't enough extra players to have a true scout team in the NFL. We only have 8 offensive linemen on the roster and 5 are starters. So who is going to be Mike Iupati twice a year? There are no 2's to go against the 1's. I guess they could mimic it with 7 on 7 but you still don't have enough extra guys to do that really. We only have 2 WRs who aren't getting playing time. So how do you mimic the 3 wide sets? Do you have Michael Floyd be Golden Tate?

Your interview analogy doesn't wash. It would only apply if someone applied for a job who had already demonstrated he could do it well but gave a poor interview. Not just because I felt he could perform if I hired him.

Stewart Bradley comes in and plays well and then disappears because he's not running drills properly? There is almost no contact in practice now so how can a coach judge a guy solely on how he practices and ignore how he does when the bullets are flying?
 

52brandon

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Are there a lot of guys who look awful in practice but look like All Pros when the game is on the line? How are coaches supposed to identify those players?

I'd expect that if you took ANY pro ball player to Kiwanis Park and put him in the batting cage, they're going to rake. If I took a prospect and put him in the batting cage and he's whiffing on half the pitches, I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to trust him against a 98 mph fast ball.

There are lots of guys who look great in practice but fall apart when the games count--take William Powell, for example
. But I don't know why a coach would say, "Well, out here on the practice field LaRon Byrd can't compete against Michael Adams, but I'll bet that when he's facing off against Carlos Rogers, he's going to win that battle every time."
huh? I mean, this IS the kid's first year on the team, he's our #4 RB, there's bound to be a learning curve. But he's still averaging 4+ yards per carry. The highest on the team
Too bad (right now) to play, not too bad to practice. SOMEONE has to pretend to be Golden Tate twice a year. Guys rarely come into the NFL as a finished product; some guys take a year to figure out the playbook (it seems like we make all our WR memorize the responsibilities for all three positions before we make them active on Sundays), plus they have to be able/willing to play special teams.

Guys who can't/won't practice well don't make it very far in the league. Would you put your job on the line by hiring a guy who had a terrible interview because you had a feeling that he could perform in the job once you hired him?
he's already hired though. It's more akin to pegging him to do a presentation that he's never done, but he's replacing a guy that can set-up the presentation perfectly and then completely ***** the bed when he starts talking. I'd say it's worth the risk
 

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I know Early has had a ton of drops so far this year, but you most give him credit for his toughness. He has run the difficult routes and been blown up time and time again. And he keeps bouncing back. No injuries or complaints. You have to respect that in a man.
 

52brandon

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I know Early has had a ton of drops so far this year, but you most give him credit for his toughness. He has run the difficult routes and been blown up time and time again. And he keeps bouncing back. No injuries or complaints. You have to respect that in a man.
those are definitely important supporting qualities in a receiver. But actually catching the ball is the most important. No point in even running the route if you're not gonna catch the ball when it's thrown to you
 
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