Early results mixed as Suns search for balance between offense, ‘D’

[azdad1978]

By Mike Tulumello, Tribune

"Overwhelming firepower" was the theme of the Suns' first four games, all blowout wins. The Suns' offensive weaponry overshadowed defensive stats that were just as impressive: a league-best 36 percent shooting percentage allowed (and just 83.5 points allowed). But the Suns have, as preseason skeptics feared, been blown apart on defense the past two games by two tough opponents: LeBron James' Cleveland Cavaliers and the Sacramento Kings. The two clubs averaged 113.5 points on 46 percent shooting.

These shortcomings put the spotlight on the Suns' small lineup, particularly the difficulty of stopping opposing big men, as the Kings' front line burned the Suns.

Can a unit of three forwards, with Amare Stoudemire playing a nominal center, with Shawn Marion defending power forwards, consistently defend bigger opponents?

And even if they do, can they hold up physically over the course of a six-month season? In the Suns' 113-111 loss Saturday to Sacramento, coach Mike D'Antoni elected to sit the defensive-oriented Bo Outlaw. And Steven Hunter, the Suns' shot-blocking center, played only 17 minutes, even though he was coming off a terrific road trip and the club's other center, Jake Voskuhl, was out sick.

Even after the past two games, the Suns still lead the NBA in shooting-percentage defense (.395).

Perhaps that's one reason, D'Antoni is going to stick with his small lineup tonight vs. the high-scoring Dallas Mavericks.

"I'm not real worried yet," D'Antoni said, maintaining the biggest problem vs. the Kings was getting beat on four or five uncontested layups.

"We have the best athletes in the world," he said. "We can't give up those kind of baskets."

More generally, his best players are those in the small lineup, so D'Antoni wants to test their limits.

In fact, D'Antoni thinks the Suns "are much better defensively" going small and that, "It would be predictable what would happen if we went away from it." By contrast, "We don't know how much better we can get if we keep using it (the small lineup)," he said.

At the same time, D'Antoni said the coaching staff is trying to figure out how to best use Outlaw. The early verdict is to play him alongside Stoudemire so the Suns don't sacrifice scoring.

Asked whether the Suns can consistently defend while going small, guard Steve Nash said, "Maybe not for 82 games, 48 minutes a game. But for stretches, it can be a real weapon for us."

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=31618

 

[SweetD]

I am getting sick just reading this. I can't stand the small ball line up. No way Marion can guard Dirk and Damp is going to wear down Amare all night. Q has been off starting he needs to come off the bench. If not we are going to have a line up of Barbosa, CJ, JJ or Q, Bo Outlaw and Hunter not much scoring going on there.

 

[myrondizzo]

I am getting sick just reading this. I can't stand the small ball line up. No way Marion can guard Dirk and Damp is going to wear down Amare all night. Q has been off starting he needs to come off the bench. If not we are going to have a line up of Barbosa, CJ, JJ or Q, Bo Outlaw and Hunter not much scoring going on there.

i think amare will do just fine as he has against other centers but where we really get burned is marion guarding the PF although dirk is so quick i think amare might get into foul trouble. one thing is for sure though if we dont get some stops on Defense we will never get our running game going. i think that Q is better off the bench too. its early in the season so i dont want to get too upset but i think small ball has exposed its weakness.

 

[scotsman13]

dampier isnt going to wear amare down. by halfway into the first quarter dampier will have a couple fouls trying to guard amare and then it starts to get bad from there. in the past the suns have got dirk in trouble by having him guard amare (that i will miss). dirk cant guard marion and marion cant guard dirk.

 

[Joe Mama]

Amare Stoudemire may be able to put some quick fouls on Dampier. Of course that may go the other way. The Mavericks will immediately throw the ball down to two guys... Dirk Nowitzki and Dampier. We'll see how smart Nelson is tonight. If he's really using his head he will go straight down to Dampier several times to start the game.

Joe Mama

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm starting to get real sick of D'Antoni's words.

 

[asudevil83]

I'm starting to get real sick of D'Antoni's words.

D'Antoni is in utter denial right now....and he isnt making any sense. i think the reason he wants to go small is to satisfy Q's desire to start. if he doesnt start, then he will be pissed. if he does start, then Amare and Marion will not only be pissed, they will be tired....

i'm sick of D'Antoni's words because...
1.) its obvious that his small ball lineup has serious issues. we can score, but we cant defend, and our two big guys (marion and amare) are either dead tired or in foul trouble by the 4th quarter.
2.) he's the only one who seriously believes in this right now. their is NO FAN anywhere who thinks this is a good idea....even his players (especially amare) dont want to be playing it.

i'm sorry but this guy needs to get his head out of his ass, and start coaching like a real coach. he's got a few guys that he can use at the center position, why not use them. Hunter has been playing great as of late, so he's earned his shot to start i think. he can play defense and he's got the size to match up with some guys. i dont know why we didnt see more of Hunter, Amare, and Marion on the floor....it looks and works well.

i'm almost hoping for us to lose tonight because of small ball. it will hopefully show that small ball is fun against crappy team, but cant do the job against legit teams.

and i hope to god D'Antoni isnt trying to mirror Westphal and his 93 suns, and become some sort of savior and idol to the franchise, because he might just end up like Frank Johnson.

 

[sunsfn]

I personally do not like small ball at all, but we have only played 6 games.

We are 4-2 right now and I think we need to see what happens after 10-20 games have been played.

With Hunter & Vroman new to the team, and Bo just arriving and not playing for D"antoni before, he is still learning the team offense and defense.

I think you will see some bigs playing tonight.

Having said all this, I think we will lose if we play small ball tonight.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

.) its obvious that his small ball lineup has serious issues. we can score, but we cant defend, and our two big guys (marion and amare) are either dead tired or in foul trouble by the 4th quarter.

I don't see how you can say we don't defend well. We don't defend ONE part of the other team's offense well. That is when a team has 2 offensive weapons that are bigger than 6'9.

You can't argue against the suns having the best defensive FG%. Their perimeter defense is great. Teams do not get many open looks, there is always a guy on them and in their face. We are packing the middle in, forcing teams to take jumpshots instead of driving by us. We are number 5 in the league in block's per game. We are #11 in forcing turnovers. We have a solid defensive unit to most people's surprise at this point.

The only weakness is when Shawn has to guard a guy like Webber. I wasn't thrilled by it, but I want to ask you guys a question. How could we have stopped it? By removing Q or Marion, and placing Hunter in, Webber still will score 75% of what he did on Marion (at least). Of course, our offensive takes a very large hit when we change the lineup this way.

I don't see what is wrong with letting Webber get his points, and trying to shut down the rest of the team. It is similar to how people used to let Kobe and Shaq get their 60 points a game, knowing if they can stop everyone else, they would win. Webber isn't nearly as dominant as those 2, but the fact of the matter is, the suns don't have anyone on their team that can guard him (whem Miller is also on the floor). No one used to bash teams for letting 1 person beat them before, why do it now

i'm sorry but this guy needs to get his head out of his ass, and start coaching like a real coach.

How is playing small indicate that "he isn't a real coach"? I don't think ANYONE would claim that Nelson "isn't a real coach" and he is the damn inventor of small ball.

FJ wasn't a real coach because he just tried to mirror his opponents. He didn't do any independant thinking, and let the other team control the game. D'antoni knows the strength of his team, and the weaknesses so he challanges the other team to keep up.

he's got a few guys that he can use at the center position, why not use them. Hunter has been playing great as of late, so he's earned his shot to start i think. he can play defense and he's got the size to match up with some guys. i dont know why we didnt see more of Hunter, Amare, and Marion on the floor....it looks and works well.

All this talk about Hunter being so great is ridiculous. He played a grand total of 40 good minutes. Did everyone forget the Orlando fan's comments so quickly? "He will play some great games that will get you really excited, then fail soon after"

Personally, I like the idea of easing him into the lineup to see how he does. No reason to commit heavy minutes to a guy you cant trust. And by D'antoni's comments, he agrees. He said that starting is not out the question, and he will watch how he does over an extended period of time.


EVERYONE agrees that the Suns center rotation is pathetic. Voskuhl appears to have regressed, or at the least stalled his development. We know nothing about Lampe really. Outlaw is a nice pickup, but he is no taller than Shawn Marion (although he plays big). The question this week has been how to implement him, and I assume that will be solved by next week sometime.


For the first time 3 years the Suns aren't playing a "gimmick" style of basketball as so many people fondly referred to it as. They do not chase people like chickens with their heads cut off. They don't piece together completely random lineups. They are playing to their strong suit. They are setting the tone. Opponents come into the game saying "How are we going to stop Phoenix from scoring", not the other way around.

If you gave Mike an athetic shot blocking center that could run (in a Camby, or hell, even Ratliff mold), I bet he would be in there. If Hunter keeps this up over the next 10 games, I bet we will see him.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

That post was way to long. I don't even want to reread it myself for mistakes.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

even his players (especially amare) dont want to be playing it.

LOL, I just saw this quote.

SUNS FORWARD SHAWN MARION (14 PTS, 15 RBS): “The first half we gave them easy baskets, but during the second half we were contesting every shot. They were on fire and you have to give them credit. They hit every big shot they needed to hit tonight, and we had a good look at the end there to tie it up.

“It was a good game overall. We just have to get better on defense. I like guarding Webber. He is bigger than me, but I kept him away from the basket as much I could.”

I am sorry, but I laughed when I saw it.

 

[SirStefan32]

He may like guarding Webber. Perhaps it's possible that he enjoys getting his ass kicked every time down the floor.

 

[elindholm]

The only weakness is when Shawn has to guard a guy like Webber. I wasn't thrilled by it, but I want to ask you guys a question. How could we have stopped it? By removing Q or Marion, and placing Hunter in, Webber still will score 75% of what he did on Marion (at least).

Put Stoudemire on Webber and Voskuhl or Hunter on Miller.

I don't see what is wrong with letting Webber get his points, and trying to shut down the rest of the team.

Because Webber also got his rebounds. A lot more than his fair share.

And he got his points way too easily. When someone says, "Let the other team's big star get his points," they're usually hoping that the star will at least shoot a low percentage or have to work hard. You don't give Shaquille O'Neal a wide open dunk every time down the floor, then say, "Well, our strategy was to give Shaq his points and try to stop everyone else."

You can't argue against the suns having the best defensive FG%.

They have played against some very poor offensive teams so far. If this number holds up after another few weeks, I'll be thrilled.

For the first time 3 years the Suns aren't playing a "gimmick" style of basketball as so many people fondly referred to it as.

Yes they are. Putting Shawn Marion at power forward in order to avoid using a real center is a gimmick. "Skill ball" is a gimmick. And it is when Don Nelson does it, too.

 

[cly2tw]

If you just want to win ONE game NOW with the players we have, small ball probably will give us the best chance.

But the dilemmas with it are that the
1. the season is long and we don't want to wear out our core players too soon
2. it's the postseason what counts and even our players weren't worn out by then yet, the chance to win with small ball then is minimal to say the least. And if you don't practise, you never can play normal-ball.
3. our franchise player needs to mature by learning properly the post games in a normal-ball environment

So, despite all the 'great' stats so far, where is the FUTURE by sticking to small ball????

 

[slinslin]

Webber didn't do much after the first quarter. I'd be surprised if he had more than 1 offensive board and 2 close shots after the first quarter.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Because Webber also got his rebounds. A lot more than his fair share.

That is just wrong. Webber had 10 rebounds in that game. His career average is 10.2, and he is averaging 9.9 for the season. That is not that big of a difference. He did get 2 more offensive boards than normal, but that also means he got 2 less defensive boards.

Shawn Marion had 4 more boards than his seaosn average, and 5 more than his career. He ALSO got 2 more offensive boards than normal.

And he got his points way too easily. When someone says, "Let the other team's big star get his points," they're usually hoping that the star will at least shoot a low percentage or have to work hard. You don't give Shaquille O'Neal a wide open dunk every time down the floor, then say, "Well, our strategy was to give Shaq his points and try to stop everyone else."

I agree with the statement about not just leaving him open, but Webber still had to work against Marion. It isn't like we threw Lampe on him. Webber shot around 52% from the field, which is above normal. However, his career percentage is 49%, so it isn't like this was totally un heard of.

They have played against some very poor offensive teams so far. If this number holds up after another few weeks, I'll be thrilled.

I doubt we will remain #1 for the entire season, but I expect to finish around 7-8 in the league. The defensive scheme the suns employ is to allow opponents to take jump shots. Teams do not get a lot of fast break points on us (except last game), and they cannot just beat their defender for a layup. If a team catches fire, like Sac did at the end, we are in trouble. However, most NBA teams won't do that.

Yes they are. Putting Shawn Marion at power forward in order to avoid using a real center is a gimmick. "Skill ball" is a gimmick. And it is when Don Nelson does it, too.

So are you saying that any type of lineup that does not include traditional positions is "gimmick"? I don't agree with that, so I guess it is just different views.

But the dilemmas with it are that the
1. the season is long and we don't want to wear out our core players too soon
2. it's the postseason what counts and even our players weren't worn out by then yet, the chance to win with small ball then is minimal to say the least. And if you don't practise, you never can play normal-ball.
3. our franchise player needs to mature by learning properly the post games in a normal-ball environment

1.) I agree with this. Limiting minutes of our players is key. Our starting 5 is averaging around 35 mpg right now. That is including the overtime game which is weighting our averages. I am fine with that number. When talking about an individual player such as Shawn Marion, I am not worried. The times where he is going to be obviously outmatches are not a regular occurance. He will have time to recouperate. He didn't slow down last season, and he was playing 40 mpg.

2.) You can play "normal ball" without practice. It isn't like these guys are new to the game of basketball. I don't think anyone is expecting a championship this year, and it is proven that small ball can get you into the second and even third round of the playoffs. When we get a big man that is worth something, then we can talk about the necessity of getting used to "normal ball"

3.) THe post game varies very little in a normal ball environment. Ideally, our center would have a mid range game in order to clear out the lane for Amare. With a 4 guard lineup, there lane is also cleared out. His post play does need some more developement, but it is not relevent to playing along side a center.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Put Stoudemire on Webber and Voskuhl or Hunter on Miller.

Then stoudemire gets in foul trouble. That is going to get us no where.

 

[asudevil83]

I doubt we will remain #1 for the entire season, but I expect to finish around 7-8 in the league. The defensive scheme the suns employ is to allow opponents to take jump shots. Teams do not get a lot of fast break points on us (except last game), and they cannot just beat their defender for a layup. If a team catches fire, like Sac did at the end, we are in trouble. However, most NBA teams won't do that.

lol...did you even see the scores of our last two games....110+ points. the ONLY reason you can even say that we have played well on D is because we have played CRAP TEAMS.....dont argue, because its true. we go out and play the Cavs (not a GREAT team, but VERY DECENT)....how many points do they score? 114. we then play the Kings....how many points 113? you CANNOT say we have good defense.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=241110005. here is a link to the cleveland game and their shot selection. look at how many shots were in the paint or within 15 feet of the basket. small ball let that happen.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=241113021. here is a link to the sacramento game and their shot selection. the did play more of a perimeter game, but that is because they have guys who can stroke it. even webber can hit from out there.

in each of those games we lost...in each game we lost to a different type of team. against cleveland, we got killed on the inside....i mean killled. they had the ability to go inside and they did. D'Antoni did almost nothing to counter that....and they only reason he did was when amare was in foul trouble. so even then he only had ONE big man on the floor.

 

[elindholm]

That is just wrong. Webber had 10 rebounds in that game. His career average is 10.2, and he is averaging 9.9 for the season.

Hmm, okay, I'll have to concede that point. I should have done my homework. Thanks for digging out the facts.

Then stoudemire gets in foul trouble. That is going to get us no where.

But I'll stay stubborn here. Stoudemire is going to have to learn how to guard elite PFs sooner or later. Why shelter him from the responsibility?

 

[asudevil83]

How is playing small indicate that "he isn't a real coach"? I don't think ANYONE would claim that Nelson "isn't a real coach" and he is the damn inventor of small ball.

FJ wasn't a real coach because he just tried to mirror his opponents. He didn't do any independant thinking, and let the other team control the game. D'antoni knows the strength of his team, and the weaknesses so he challanges the other team to keep up.

i didnt say he wasnt "a real coach". i said he was COACHING like a real coach. lets face it....D'Antoni doesnt have to do much during a game. he's not out there calling plays for his team. he lets them go run and gun. D'Antoni also doesnt do much independent thinking. if he did, we wouldnt see small ball all the time. he woudl shuffle the lineup to compensate for our weaknesses (post up defense and size), but still try to work with our strengths (speed and shooting). he can even it out by playing a guy like hunter.

We are number 5 in the league in block's per game. We are #11 in forcing turnovers. We have a solid defensive unit to most people's surprise at this point.

this one made me chuckle. who has the blocks on the team? anyone...anyone? Amare and Hunter....with Hunter leading the way. take him out of the equation and we are towards the bottom. so, it would seem obvious to play a guy who can defend and block. we dont really need a scorer, so why not Hunter. thats what i would do, we should ask D'Antoni.

For the first time 3 years the Suns aren't playing a "gimmick" style of basketball as so many people fondly referred to it as. They do not chase people like chickens with their heads cut off. They don't piece together completely random lineups. They are playing to their strong suit. They are setting the tone. Opponents come into the game saying "How are we going to stop Phoenix from scoring", not the other way around.

that is BS. i would DEFINATELY concider a lineup where your PF is playing C, your SF is playing PF and you have another SF playing along with your normal SG and PG. this is nowhere near a conventional lineup. sure we are setting the tone, but it is because we have guys playing out of position.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Then stoudemire gets in foul trouble. That is going to get us no where.

But I'll stay stubborn here. Stoudemire is going to have to learn how to guard elite PFs sooner or later. Why shelter him from the responsibility?

I will give you that point. He does need to learn sometime. Of course, doesn't Rasho usually guard Amare when we play the spurs?? I just don't think we should risk the foul trouble for the focal point of our offense.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

i didnt say he wasnt "a real coach". i said he was COACHING like a real coach. lets face it....D'Antoni doesnt have to do much during a game. he's not out there calling plays for his team. he lets them go run and gun. D'Antoni also doesnt do much independent thinking. if he did, we wouldnt see small ball all the time. he woudl shuffle the lineup to compensate for our weaknesses (post up defense and size), but still try to work with our strengths (speed and shooting). he can even it out by playing a guy like hunter.

You said he needed to act like a real coach. HWhat does independant thinking have to do with the thought process of small ball? Independant thinking means he isn't going to do what you or everyone else thinks. He is going to play it the way he think it should be played, and won't let the other team dictate his actions. He forces them to respond to him, not the other way around.

lol...did you even see the scores of our last two games....110+ points. the ONLY reason you can even say that we have played well on D is because we have played CRAP TEAMS.....dont argue, because its true. we go out and play the Cavs (not a GREAT team, but VERY DECENT)....how many points do they score? 114. we then play the Kings....how many points 113? you CANNOT say we have good defense.

Last time I checked, points allowed isn't the end all assessment of defensive ability. Teams with the fewest points allowed, usually rank in the fewest points scored as well. It has to do with the pace of the game. There are plenty more possesions in a Phx Suns game than in the slow games.

The FG% is a better example of defensive ability.

that is BS. i would DEFINATELY concider a lineup where your PF is playing C, your SF is playing PF and you have another SF playing along with your normal SG and PG. this is nowhere near a conventional lineup. sure we are setting the tone, but it is because we have guys playing out of position.

Well, after reading through your poor spelling, and apparent lost train of thought in your first sentence I am going to quote an earlier statement I made.

"So are you saying that any type of lineup that does not include traditional positions is "gimmick"? I don't agree with that, so I guess it is just different views."

here is a link to the cleveland game and their shot selection. look at how many shots were in the paint or within 15 feet of the basket. small ball let that happen.

I thought you might have had some arguement here so I counted the shots. There were 48 attempts outside the paint, or 54% of their shots. If you look even closer, the only time they were effective in the paint was right around the basket. They did get to many opportunities in there. Of course, they did have the second best offensive center in the league down there. The Suns were packing it in, and they were missing their outside shots.

The Sac. game they played the same strategy, but like you said, Sac got hot. Coming into the game, they were shooting ice cold. Unlucky for us, they broke out of the slump in our game.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Look, I don't necessarily like small ball, but I can see the reasons for it. I would personally love to see Q come off the bench, but he apparently doesn't want anything to do with it. I am not sure if it is worth possibly disrupting chemestry just to force him to the bench.

I am amazed at how many people are clamoring for Hunter to get more time. He has 2 good games. We know this player is a tease, there is a reason why he was cut from his rookie deal and signed a minimum offer sheet with us. Maybe we should wait 10 games before adjusting our entire game plan?

Oh wait, I forgot. Everyone on this board OBVIOUSLY knows more about basketball and the Phoenix Suns personnel than their coaching staff. Funny how that slips my mind from time to time.

 

[elindholm]

Everyone on this board OBVIOUSLY knows more about basketball and the Phoenix Suns personnel than their coaching staff. Funny how that slips my mind from time to time.

Hey, come on, Andy, don't be naive. You know perfectly well that any coach, particularly a young one, is under pressure to win right away. And a "players' coach" is also under pressure to get along with his players, particularly new ones that he's just getting to know. And finally, with fan support for the franchise at a fifteen-year low following last season, there's a lot to be said for playing "an exciting brand of basketball" in order to build enthusiasm.

All of these things are currently influencing the way the Suns are being asked to play. None of them has anything to do with building a long-term winner. The coaching staff knows this, but they have other agendas and considerations.

Even the small-ball detractors on this board acknowledge that the way the Suns are currently playing is exciting and provides the best chance to win today. But some of us have other priorities. Maybe the coaching staff does too -- or would -- but right now, it's pretty clear that they know where their bread is buttered. That doesn't make them less knowledgeable than the fans. Just less honest.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Oh I know. I was just venting. Some of the attitude in a couple posts was a little to much.