Edgar Gonzalez

[mark1]

What was everybody's opinion of him last night? I thought he showed good stuff. He has some giddyup on his fastball. He seems sneaky quick, the ball gets on the hitter pretty quickly. Brennaman said he topped out at 99. When this kid learns how to pitch we might have something special.

Thoughts?

 

[AZZenny]

I agree - I thought he did fine, and was surprised later to see he was sort of all over the place - he has a good tough demeanor. Guess he can hit, too, and bunt decently.

Valverde had me freaking out - guess that means he's a natural closer. LOL

 

[outcent]

I thought Edgar showed good poise in getting out of trouble. If are young guys keep pitching like this then we have a bright future indeed. And when I say future I mean soon.

 

[unc84steve]

Call me dour & grumpy. This relates to Dylan's previous post/concern about Oscar Villarreal's April usage pattern.

I know that Oscar "earned" the starting spot over John Patterson. Still, from an organizational strategic point of view, I'd have given JPatt the MLB 5th spot and put Miguel in the swing role, while protecting Oscar down at Tucson with every 5 day starts.

We have a lot to learn about how young pitchers get injured, but it seems to relate to work-loads before age 23 or so. In some ways BK's closer role was a blessing because it under-used his talents (even though he was heavily-used for a closer).

In short, I think the organization is risking some valuable commodities--their young arms--to address some immediate concerns. I agree that Oscar was better this Spring--it just didn't maximize all the resources: Oscar, JPatt & Miguel. You'd find out if John Patterson could pitch at the MLB level or not by giving him 4 good starts, then move on if he couldn't. You'd protect the 21 year old's arm (not to mention the 20 year old's) in the minors. On a different board, schillingfan proposes that BK had maturity problems because he was promoted too quickly--wouldn't Oscar Villerreal & Edgar Gonzalez be put at risk too?

Of course, I believe that BK should have been used as an inning-eater to protect younger arms, instead of having the younger arms being used as a reason to trade BK.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by unc84steve
In short, I think the organization is risking some valuable commodities--their young arms--to address some immediate concerns. I agree that Oscar was better this Spring--it just didn't maximize all the resources: Oscar, JPatt & Miguel. You'd find out if John Patterson could pitch at the MLB level or not by giving him 4 good starts, then move on if he couldn't. You'd protect the 21 year old's arm (not to mention the 20 year old's) in the minors. On a different board, schillingfan proposes that BK had maturity problems because he was promoted too quickly--wouldn't Oscar Villerreal & Edgar Gonzalez be put at risk too?

Villareal no, Gonzalez use. Villareal was signed in 1998, so he's been in the organization for several years, moving his way steadily up, despite his youth. BK basically went straight from Korea to Arizona. Edgar Gonzalez was in A ball last year I believe, that's too quick.

I think Villareal was used too much earlier this year, but some people believe that it is better for a pitcher to work in the pen his first couple of years in the minors, as opposed to starting. This was the Earl Weaver philosophy.

Honestly, I figure that there is no rhyme or reason to arm injuries. Some players will break down and need surgery, regardless of what you do to them. Others, like those managed by Jeff Torborg, will be worked to death. But other than such obvious abuses, who the heck knows?

 

[unc84steve]

Originally posted by schillingfan
I think Villareal was used too much earlier this year, but some people believe that it is better for a pitcher to work in the pen his first couple of years in the minors, as opposed to starting. This was the Earl Weaver philosophy.

Honestly, I figure that there is no rhyme or reason to arm injuries. Some players will break down and need surgery, regardless of what you do to them. Others, like those managed by Jeff Torborg, will be worked to death. But other than such obvious abuses, who the heck knows?

I agree that there's a lot we don't know about pitching injuries. We can however take a scientific approach of data gathering that tests hypotheses, ideally prospectively, rather than retrospectively. However, looking back at history works too.

But let's get our facts straight. Earl Weaver managed in a very different era, before this obsessive 2 or 3 pitchers per inning (thanks Mr. LaRussa!) Weaver said that it was best for young pitchers making the transition from the minors to the MLB level to work "long relief": specifically eating innings in blow-outs. Earl said such an apprenticeship was best for the team & best for the pitcher. I have no idea how he handled young pitchers in the minors--I doubt he was shuffling them in & out of the bullpen though.

The advantage to such a long-relief role is that it minimizes the warm-up/cool-down cycles for a young arm. It also lets a pitcher face MLB hitters in a low-pressure environment. The advantage to avoiding mid-inning pitching changes is similar: you cut down on warm-up cycles per months (i.e. once the pitcher is warmed up, you might as well get some innings).

One notable time he did handle the staff like it was the 7th game of the World Series, WAS the 7th game of the 1979 WS when he used 5 pitchers in one inning. It didn't work.

 

[schillingfan]

Steve, I completely agree with you on the micro-managing, specialize this and that about bullpens. Tony LaRussa has a lot to answer for. But as managers go, I see Brenly as less LaRussa-like than a lot of managers. I think if he had his druthers, and not 38 pitching injuries, he'd go with the two inning relief stints and not 5 relievers per ballgame. As a I recall BK had more two inning saves than any other reliever last year.

 

[deweyniner]

Well, there are guys like Gooden, Saberhagen, who you just can't keep down on the farm forever. I think without the injuries, we don't see Webb and Gonzalez, maybe not even Good this season. Remember, it was last July or August that Edgar threw a no-no in South Bend, and the guy is only 20. Sometimes, that is enough, other times it isn't. The real good ones, only need a little bit of time in the minors. Brian Barden is a decent example, he was at Yakima for less than two weeks, and the coaches noted how the pitchers couldn't handle him, so, less than one year after being drafted, he is now at what, Lancaster? He skipped, pretty much, South Bend, should probably be in El Paso by the end of the season, if he isn't there already, I haven't looked lately. Other guys, like Terrero, take longer. He's been at El Paso for like the last three seasons. The really good ones shouldn't take that long, but others, we may have to wait for. That's what I didn't like about the BK trade, I was hoping to see Tracy next season, actually, was wishing they'd give him the 3B job over Matty, but that obviously didn't happen. Guys like Mantle had a quick rise through the minors, but other guys, such as Valverde might need a little more time.

There are some folks who believe that pitch counts matter more than innings pitched, or appearances. They might have a point, but I don't have any insight on that particular issue.

I think we need to be patient with pitch counts and appearances, however, if a guys ready, move him on up. It appears to me that Webb is ready, and it looks like Edgar Gonzalez is closer to being ready than Patterson or Good. If it weren't for Oropesa, Myers, and trading Kim(and an overall crappy bullpen outside of Villarreal and Valverde, with Prinz and Koplove being injured), I feel that Oscar should be given a spot in the rotation. Johnson, Schilling, Webb, Batista and Villarreal.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by deweyniner
The real good ones, only need a little bit of time in the minors. Brian Barden is a decent example, he was at Yakima for less than two weeks, and the coaches noted how the pitchers couldn't handle him, so, less than one year after being drafted, he is now at what, Lancaster?

I don't really agree with that comment, particularly when it comes to young pitchers. I think that some of the problems the D-Backs had with Kim in getting him to listen to his pitching coaches came from being promoted to the majors right away. There is a learning curve that players should follow, and there is a lot of benefit to getting innings in while in the minors.

I'd agree it's true for a polished college pitcher like a Mark Prior, because he had nothing to learn in the minors, but a 20 year old kid should benefit from the instruction he gets in the minors.

 

[Eros400]

Brian Barden actually started the season at El Paso. Hes been on the dl lately though. But last season he did go from Yakima to Lancaster while skipping South Bend. They started Chris Snyder at Lancaster right off the bat when drafted then he repeated it against this year making the all star team there.

 

[deweyniner]

Both Saberhagen and Gooden were't 'polished' college pitchers, they were high school guys who didn't need a lot of time in the minors. Edgar doesn't look like he needs much more time down there, either. What Yount should do to Brenly.

 

[deweyniner]

But then again, Tracy and Barden could rake at a .500 clip, and Brenly isn't going to play them. What Yount should do to Brenly

 

[Eros400]

I think a guy should at least be old enough to drink with the team.

Edgar didn't have a great game last night either. He needs to stay there a little longer to work on his game.