Edge on the bench

[JeffGollin]

We Were Getting Beat Up Front

When the running game isn't working, the first place I look is at the offensive line.

While it's true that different RB's may bring something different to the table and that one may match up better with what we're trying to do against an opposing defense, if we're not opening up any holes, it won't matter whether we use Edge, Timmy T, Jimmy Brown or Red Grange - it just isn't gonna work.

Then there's TE (or lack thereof) with Patrick, Pope and Tuman out or injured. When you can't block on the perimeter, you can't run wide. When your TE's aren't receiving threats, you'll be more prone to go with multi-receiver sets instead (so that on passing downs you might not have any TE available to block on a surprise running play).

Finally, give SF credit for playing more physically up front on their side of the ball. Our RB's had little daylight to run to - and in the few instances they did, Willis and the other SF LB's were right there to stop the RB in the hole before he could out juke them or outquick them into the second level.

 

[joeshmo]

I just don't get how you guys think a back that had one good carry out of 13 or 14 touches for a total of 22yrds in A WHOLE GAME against the niners is better than the experience vet whom put up triple digits rushing on this same defense.

The niners defense is not the same defense as the first time around. They are running a completely different scheme then their original 3-4 scheme they started out with. They are running more of a hybrid 3-4/4-3 scheme that we run ever since Singeltery took over. They also changed some of the starters.

 

[joeshmo]

Edge for my money is the proven guy has done it year in and year out, may not always be pretty but back to back 1200 in Az is not something we get all the time, actually pretty much never. So please excuse me if I am not thrilled we are benching a back that gets it done

Our run production has been exactly the same before Edge as it is now with Edge. Someone else already posted it but the total running yards and YPC have been exactly the same. Its just that Jones had to share carries, shipp had to share carries, and so on. Edge only got to 1200 over those guys becuase he got more touches, thats all.

 

[joeshmo]

Yes, he will nashman. Edge will play whatever role he is asked to. He's a damn solid professional and stand up guy. He wants touches, but he isn't going to pout.

Nashman has such a high feeling for Edge yet he thinks he is going to pout and not take advantage any carries he does get. Come on now, the guy has more pride then that and he has some more stats to get to rise his status on the top rushers of all time list. Warner was asked about it last night and stated that he isnt a problem in the locker room now and wont be a problem in the locker room later. Warner flat out stated that the players love the guy and anyone Edge has avery playted with loves the guy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd like Nashman to try and remember what the offense did and looked like against the Cowboys and Panthers in Edge's last two starts where he brought his consistency to the table:

Cowboys: O scored 17 points, had 276 (50 rushing) yards in total offense, 3 turnovers, 1 sack.
Panthers: O scored 23 points, had 425 (50 rushing) yards in offense, 2 turnovers, 2 sacks.

That's an average of 20 ppg, 350 total yards (50 rushing), 2.5 turnovers and 1.5 sacks per game.

Now, the last two weeks since we made the switch, the O has scored 27 and 29 points, had 510 (177 rushing) and 375 (46 rushing) yards in total offense, 0 turnovers and 1 combined sack.

That's an average of 28 ppg, 440 total yards (110 rushing), 0 turnovers and .5 sacks per game.

I mean, you keep saying that the O isn't working as well without Edge but the numbers across the board, the Ws in the win column, the lack of turnovers, the fewer sacks... well, everything is contradicting your opinion.

You also keep bringing up that we're starting games off slow... as if this team hasn't done that multiple times (and more often than not) this season. In 5 of the 7 games we played where Edge started the offense couldn't get untracked until the 2nd half:

Niners in Game 1 we had 10 points at the half for the offense (and that was with 4 first half turnovers created by the D).

Skins in Game 3 we had 7 points at the half.

Jets in Game 4 had 0 points at the half.

Cowboys in Game 6 we had 0 points at the half.

Carolina in Game 7 we had 10 points at the half.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Our run production has been exactly the same before Edge as it is now with Edge. Someone else already posted it but the total running yards and YPC have been exactly the same. Its just that Jones had to share carries, shipp had to share carries, and so on. Edge only got to 1200 over those guys becuase he got more touches, thats all.

Yep, it was me trying to pound it into Nash's head that Edge is no better or worse than any back we have had here for 15 years. He just didn't have to split carries, and the reason he didn't split carries, was the enormous contract he has.

 

[Mulli]

Yep, it was me trying to pound it into Nash's head that Edge is no better or worse than any back we have had here for 15 years. He just didn't have to split carries, and the reason he didn't split carries, was the enormous contract he has.

No way. Even in his decline he is better than most if not all of them. That is how bad the RB's have been in AZ.

 

[nashman]

Cheese be serious man playing the Cowboys and Panthers are freaking way different than the sorry ass Rams and Niners your numbers mean crap. Of course the numbers will be skewed for TH if you use Edges games against good teams and TH against pathetic 2-7 teams what a joke. TH didn't do crap against carolina either if you want to bring that up. Bringing up numbers from tough games cheese against real teams has nothing to do with TH or the offense playing good against 2 sorry teams. You should know the difference.

And Edge DID have a 100 yrd game against the niners to open the season and I am sure their D was healthier then than now! Of course our offensive numbers look good in the last two games Warner was excellent in both and thats how we score points! TH helped in the rams game thats it and again he still gets alot of small if not negative gains, yet to hear your rebuttle on the fact his losses put our down and distance at a disadvantage over and over again!

 

[nashman]

If you don't know that Edge is the best back we have ever had in AZ well then not sure what to tell you. Its not really even close.

 

[Pariah]

NM, are you objective enough to admit you're not very objective on the subject of Edge?

 

[Kablansky]

If you don't know that Edge is the best back we have ever had in AZ well then not sure what to tell you. Its not really even close.

on reputation, and not performance

 

[nashman]

objective how Pariah? Do I think he is better than TH...absolutely. Do I think TH could be or is a good back, absolutely. Do I think TH is starter material yet, absolutely NOT. People on here refuse to look at the negatives of TH starting. I may have to go back and look but it sure seems like we are in A LOT more 3rd and longs as a result of negative plays, this wasn't the case alot with Edge as he rarely loses yards. Look we are not a good running team period and I don't think any back on the team can fix that. I have said before the Oline is the reason we can't run the ball.

But what we are is a passing team and losing yardage on our running plays doesn't exactly put us in good positions D&D wise let alone play action. Again I don't think TH is ready just yet doesn't mean he shouldn't get carries I am just not sure he should be getting the bulk of the carries imo. Can't any of you be objective that Edge CLEARLY wasn't the problem with our running game and has done very well since being in Az given the line he has had to run behind?

 

[nashman]

Kablasky on reputation huh? So his back to back 1200 wasn't performance... really? What back do you think has performed in Az?

 

[Kablansky]

Kablasky on reputation huh? So his back to back 1200 wasn't performance... really? What back do you think has performed in Az?

So you are going to look at yards only and not the entire perspective such as yards per carry, total touchdowns, fumbles, receptions etc... How about the number of times Edge has gained 20+ yards on a single carry in his days here.

Those 1200 yards do not paint the entire picture. He certainly has had more yards than any Cardinal in recent memory but does that mean he was the best runningback here? It would take much more time in statistical analysis to make that decision then I am prepared to invest. Which means, it's not as obvious as you make it out to be. As such someone else already noted, Edge did not increase the running game at all during his tenure here. He simply carried the load, versus having two backs share carries.

If you wish to provide statistical evidence I may understand your point

 

[nashman]

It actually is that obvious. I don't care about 20yrd runs lots of RB get those and their numbers don't come close to Edge's when its all said and done. Productive EVERY DOWN backs don't have to have break away speed, not sure why people think this. Hes a bruiser he will wear you down and have more and more success as the game wears on.

 

[Pariah]

Productive EVERY DOWN backs don't have to have break away speed, not sure why people think this. Hes a bruiser he will wear you down and have more and more success as the game wears on.

Problem is, he's not really a bruiser either.

Productive every down backs usually have enough burst to full advantage of the holes presented them. Edge just doesn't. He's slippery and has good vision, but that's not enough.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese be serious man playing the Cowboys and Panthers are freaking way different than the sorry ass Rams and Niners your numbers mean crap. Of course the numbers will be skewed for TH if you use Edges games against good teams and TH against pathetic 2-7 teams what a joke.

so, now what I'm saying is a "joke" and "crap". Good to see we're gonna have a good solid football discussion here without getting personal or inflammatory.

TH didn't do crap against carolina either if you want to bring that up. Bringing up numbers from tough games cheese against real teams

Nash, can you "bring up numbers from tough games against real teams" that SUPPORT Edge this year?

And Edge DID have a 100 yrd game against the niners to open the season and I am sure their D was healthier then than now! Of course our offensive numbers look good in the last two games Warner was excellent in both and thats how we score points! TH helped in the rams game thats it

and Edge helped in the Niners game and that's it.

and again he still gets alot of small if not negative gains
yet to hear your rebuttle on the fact his losses put our down and distance at a disadvantage over and over again!

here's my rebuttal: With this offense 2 and 9 (with Edge) versus 2 and 11 (with Hightower) doesn't make enough of a difference to not have the guy who can actually bust long runs.

 

[joeshmo]

Cheese be serious man playing the Cowboys and Panthers are freaking way different than the sorry ass Rams and Niners your numbers mean crap. Of course the numbers will be skewed for TH if you use Edges games against good teams and TH against pathetic 2-7 teams what a joke.

Dallas run defense is very much so below average and the Niners are actually pretty good at it. Not a different story at all.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Can't any of you be objective that Edge CLEARLY wasn't the problem with our running game and has done very well since being in Az given the line he has had to run behind?

CLEARLY? We've had one game where the rookie had 100 yards and a one game where he stunk. I think the jury is out on what's clear about anything. As to doing "very well" - he's been durable and shown the ability to take a beating, but rushing for 3.6 ypc is pretty much par for the course with our previous stable of running backs. Just being able to stay healthy might be deemed praise-worthy if the Cardinals are the only team that exist in football, but they aren't. From a league perspective he's been average at best.

 

[Russ Smith]

It actually is that obvious. I don't care about 20yrd runs lots of RB get those and their numbers don't come close to Edge's when its all said and done. Productive EVERY DOWN backs don't have to have break away speed, not sure why people think this. Hes a bruiser he will wear you down and have more and more success as the game wears on.

So explain this.

2008 Edgerrin James first half 56 222 4YPC, second half 54 162 3 YPC

Or this carries 1-10 3.6 YPC
carries 11-20 3.6 YPC
carries 21-30 1.9 YPC(only has 7 such carries).

I agree Edge does have less runs for loss, the problem is the ones where there is a hole, he gets far less out of it than Hightower does.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So explain this.

2008 Edgerrin James first half 56 222 4YPC, second half 54 162 3 YPC

Or this carries 1-10 3.6 YPC
carries 11-20 3.6 YPC
carries 21-30 1.9 YPC(only has 7 such carries).

I agree Edge does have less runs for loss, the problem is the ones where there is a hole, he gets far less out of it than Hightower does.

russ, why bother? he's just going to call you nuts or tell you your numbers are crap.

 

[Russ Smith]

russ, why bother? he's just going to you nuts or tell you your numbers are crap.

You know me, I like to deal in absolutes. I would have posted the numbers whether they agreed with Nashman or not, at least this way everyone knows that Edge isn't really getting stronger in the 2nd half this year.

Doesn't even mean it's Edge's fault, you can see an average drop noticeably in 2nd halves because you're running out the clock against teams geared to stop you. But in this case, it's just not true that he gets stronger as the carries pile up.

We don't know yet if Tim does, he hasn't had enough carries in a game yet.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

on reputation, and not performance

DING DING DING... WINNER!!