elindholm weighs in

[nowagimp]

I understand the comparisons with Malone. Similar body type, strong, cut 6'10". Amare was compared with Malone before the injury. Now he may be physically limited, in that his hops and speed are perhaps limited. I think the comparisons now are partly valid, as Malone had lousy hops and speed compared with the pre injury amare. People are asking how amare can be productive without the hops and speed(if that is the case). The answer is that if he played more like Malone, who did not rely on hops and speed, he could be a nice player. The problem with that comparison is that Malone was incredibly durable and a physical banger. Its highly unlkely that amare will be as durable as Malone or a physical banger after the injury. On the other hand, amare has great hands and a really good handle for a 6'10" PF, better than Malone at this stage of his career. Amare also has a really good midrange shot already, malone took a little longer to develop that great shooting touch. Amare does have great work habits also, which is alot like Malone. Amare will be different, he'll probably never amass the stats or be as durable as Malone, but he may still be an outstanding player just developing the tools of the trade. Now the suns just have to put the pieces around him to fill the gaps and hope for a near full recovery. The one good thing is that now amare will have to learn to play team ball more than ever, and this suns team is real good at that, so he'll fit right in.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

that's next season. I'm hoping he will keep improving all the way through the playoffs. Barring a major setback I figure he will look like an All-Star again this season after next.

Joe

Hope you are right...

 

[Errntknght]

Joe, "I expect he will score a bunch of points off pick and pops"

I have doubts about Amare being involved in lots of pick & pop plays - why give the opponents a chance to bang a guy into him when all you'll get out of it is a jump shot? I expect to see Nash running the pick and roll with Boris - he's more likely to be defended by a big that Nash can take advantage of than is Amare. Also, Boris is good at 'bulldozing' Nash's man down into the low post where he can take advantage of him.

I think Amare will do most of his damage posting high at an elbow. Who knows he may have developed at step back jumper or a fallaway that makes him harder to defend even though the threat of him driving is dimished. If his passing is much improved, thats a very good place on the floor to operate from.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see him operating out of the corner some - just before his knee problems surfaced we were hearing reports that he was getting good at corner threes. Normally, you wouldn't want him that far from the action but now maybe the relative safety of it is worthwhile. Its not a great place to pass from but if Nash and Diaw are both on the floor thats not a big deal.

 

[elindholm]

the next installment

Banks: There isn't much information on this guy, and what there is isn't especially promising. I think it's a fine signing, but I don't understand why so many on this board have annointed Banks a key member of the future core.

Barbosa: His extension is for a decent price, but I don't understand it. In 2007-08, the Suns will be paying $14 million to Bell, Barbosa, and Banks, all of whom are on inflating contracts through at least 2010, and only one of whom (Bell) has aspirations to be above-average at the position all three of them play, shooting guard.

Maybe the Suns think they can groom Banks to be a PG, but from the information that's currently out there, that doesn't look very promising. Besides, Nash has at least three years left on his deal, so what's the rush?

By the way, I wouldn't count on Barbosa being lights-out from beyond the arc this season. As Joe Mama and others have pointed out, he won't shoot unless he's wide open, and he doesn't have any one-dribble moves to evade a defender flying at him. In the playoffs, where defensive scouting becomes more serious, his accuracy fell off. It was still high, but not outstanding.

Stoudemire: The first-hand accounts from people on this board are discouraging. On the other hand, I remember how clueless he looked in his first summer league game as a rookie. He's capable of enormous mental strides when the conditions are right, so maybe he's just readying himself for such a leap.

Marion: I think I've resigned myself to the fact that he'll play out his current contract. His trade value will only get lower, and if the Suns didn't get any offers they liked this summer, they sure won't in the future.

Diaw: I just don't see how the Suns can afford him. Dumping Kurt Thomas next summer, if they decide to go that route, will be expensive -- you can kiss at least the middle draft pick goodbye. So maybe they're better off gutting it out with Thomas, letting Diaw walk, and trying to score big in the draft.

I wonder whether the Suns are holding onto Diaw to use as trade bait this year. I'll hold off on any specific possibilities so as not to start a fight, but his trade value figures to be extremely high.

Wilcox: I've been down on him ever since he measured so small at the (Chicago?) predraft camp. He was something like 6' 8.25", 210. I know he's listed as much larger, so maybe he's grown, but he still looks skinny and undersized to me. There's no chance at all that he could play SF for the Suns, so the only possible reason to acquire him would be to play him alongside Stoudemire. And that means no Diaw, who complements Stoudemire's (and Marion's) skills much better than Wilcox does.

Marks: Not worthy of comment.

Depth: The Suns are in major trouble at PF/C. Right now their only viable bigs are Stoudemire, Thomas, and Diaw, and the first two of those are big question marks as far as health goes. Marion and Jones will both have to see time at PF. For Marion, that seems to be fine in the regular season but hasn't generally worked well in the playoffs; for Jones, it will probably be a disaster from Day One. I still think "someone like" Tim Thomas would have been a terrific fit, but apparently the Suns would rather have someone with mediocre skills but great effort than someone with great skills but mediocre effort.

The Gorilla: Accusing people of racism in the absence of solid evidence is divisive, inflammatory, and cowardly. It isn't possible to know what anyone is thinking, so it's impossible for anyone to insulate himself against charges of prejudice under the withering assault of a self-righteous Champion of Justice. When so inclined, people can take offense at anything, under any circumstances; the ability to "connect the dots" and find an offensive interpretation says much more about the one doing the interpreting than it does about the circumstances themselves.

 

[arthurracoon]

Depth: The Suns are in major trouble at PF/C. Right now their only viable bigs are Stoudemire, Thomas, and Diaw, and the first two of those are big question marks as far as health goes. Marion and Jones will both have to see time at PF. For Marion, that seems to be fine in the regular season but hasn't generally worked well in the playoffs; for Jones, it will probably be a disaster from Day One. I still think "someone like" Tim Thomas would have been a terrific fit, but apparently the Suns would rather have someone with medicore skills but great effort than someone with great skills but mediocre effort.

 

[haverford]

The Gorilla: Accusing people of racism in the absence of solid evidence is divisive, inflammatory, and cowardly. It isn't possible to know what anyone is thinking, so it's impossible for anyone to insulate himself against charges of prejudice under the withering assault of a self-righteous Champion of Justice. When so inclined, people can take offense at anything, under any circumstances; the ability to "connect the dots" and find an offensive interpretation says much more about the one doing the interpreting than it does about the circumstances themselves.

Oh brother, I'm going to assume this means me. You had me nodding along in agreement until this. Find me where I accused anyone of racism--I explicitly avoided this. I said the symbol has been interpreted as racist and that I can see why. Your attempt to impute me, or anyone else who is similarly offended, as the racist is bizarre and beneath you. And finally, your unwillingness to name the subject of your spitball lecture is indicative. I was asked by Gaddabout to explain why I agreed with Kareem on this and tried to do so in a respectful way; almost everyone who contributed to the thread returned that civility and respect. Until this. Talk about "cowardly."

 

[TucsonDevil]

Oh brother, I'm going to assume this means me. You had me nodding along in agreement until this. Find me where I accused anyone of racism--I explicitly avoided this. I said the symbol has been interpreted as racist and that I can see why. Your attempt to impute me, or anyone else who is similarly offended, as the racist is bizarre and beneath you.

No Haverford, you were calling people racist, I saw it



:/fanning the fire, hee hee

 

[Joe Mama]

Banks: There isn't much information on this guy, and what there is isn't especially promising. I think it's a fine signing, but I don't understand why so many on this board have annointed Banks a key member of the future core.

I've only seen a few people here say that they see Banks as Nash's successor. While I think it may be possible I certainly haven't anointed him a key member of the future core. I do think he'll be a good backup though.

Barbosa: His extension is for a decent price, but I don't understand it. In 2007-08, the Suns will be paying $14 million to Bell, Barbosa, and Banks, all of whom are on inflating contracts through at least 2010, and only one of whom (Bell) has aspirations to be above-average at the position all three of them play, shooting guard.

Maybe the Suns think they can groom Banks to be a PG, but from the information that's currently out there, that doesn't look very promising. Besides, Nash has at least three years left on his deal, so what's the rush?

Only Bell might end up being above average at shooting guard, but I don't understand why you think that only he has aspirations to be above-average. Banks is a point guard by the way. He might not be a pass first point guard like Steve Nash, but he is a point guard. Barbosa is not.

By the way, I wouldn't count on Barbosa being lights-out from beyond the arc this season. As Joe Mama and others have pointed out, he won't shoot unless he's wide open, and he doesn't have any one-dribble moves to evade a defender flying at him. In the playoffs, where defensive scouting becomes more serious, his accuracy fell off. It was still high, but not outstanding.

I was actually talking about Boris Diaw if you are thinking of my recent comments. He won't shoot a jumper unless there are no defenders within 10 feet of him. Barbosa shot 39% three-pointers in the playoffs and 48% from the field. I'm hardly concerned, but if you are saying he needs to further develop is in between game I would agree with that.

Stoudemire: The first-hand accounts from people on this board are discouraging. On the other hand, I remember how clueless he looked in his first summer league game as a rookie. He's capable of enormous mental strides when the conditions are right, so maybe he's just readying himself for such a leap.

Amare Stoudemire is my biggest concern. I actually think that at least at the beginning of the season the team (starting group) will look better with him on the bench. He was bad enough defensively when he could really move.

Marion: I think I've resigned myself to the fact that he'll play out is current contract. His trade value will only get lower, and if the Suns didn't get any offers they liked this summer, they sure won't in the future.

Why is everybody so sure Shawn Marion will lose value by next summer? What we heard out of Seattle was that they soured on that rumored deal around the draft because he had too much money left on his contract. Unless his production drops off significantly he will be a good player without a long contract. I know he is still making too much money, but I don't really think his value will decrease.

Diaw: I just don't see how the Suns can afford him. Dumping Kurt Thomas next summer, if they decide to go that route, will be expensive -- you can kiss at least the middle draft pick goodbye. So maybe they're better off gutting it out with Thomas, letting Diaw walk, and trying to score big in the draft.

I wonder whether the Suns are holding onto Diaw to use as trade bait this year. I'll hold off on any specific possibilities so as not to start a fight, but his trade value figures to be extremely high.

If it only costs that middle first-round draft pick to keep Boris Diaw that's fine with me. I'm not sure what they'll have to do to keep him, but I think it's important in the end that they do. I don't like the idea of depending on a sign and trade because it will only take a team under the salary cap that calls the Phoenix Suns' bluff to screw that up.

Wilcox: I've been down on him ever since he measured so small at the (Chicago?) predraft camp. He was something like 6' 8.25", 210. I know he's listed as much larger, so maybe he's grown, but he still looks skinny and undersized to me. There's no chance at all that he could play SF for the Suns, so the only possible reason to acquire him would be to play him alongside Stoudemire. And that means no Diaw, who complements Stoudemire's (and Marion's) skills much better than Wilcox does.

I agree. I think he is a fairly unskilled but athletic 4. I certainly would not want him at the cost of $8 million per season. And I'm someone that loved Chris Wilcox when he was at Maryland.

Marks: Not worthy of comment.

He shot 52% from the field last year, and almost all of those were medium jump shots. In this offense he'll get wide-open shots when he's on the floor. I think he can grab a few rebounds and knock down a few open shots for a minimum salary. I feel fine with him near the end of the 4/5 rotation.

Depth: The Suns are in major trouble at PF/C. Right now their only viable bigs are Stoudemire, Thomas, and Diaw, and the first two of those are big question marks as far as health goes. Marion and Jones will both have to see time at PF. For Marion, that seems to be fine in the regular season but hasn't generally worked well in the playoffs; for Jones, it will probably be a disaster from Day One. I still think "someone like" Tim Thomas would have been a terrific fit, but apparently the Suns would rather have someone with mediocre skills but great effort than someone with great skills but mediocre effort.

Are the Phoenix Suns in major trouble like they were last season at this point? I would love for them to add another legitimate 4/5, but I wouldn't say they are in "major trouble". I consider Sean Marks instead of Brian Grant an improvement. Even if you don't agree with that please don't try to tell me that it's anything worse than a parallel substitution.

Otherwise we are looking at the same 4/5 that started last season with one major exception. The Phoenix Suns now have Amare Stoudemire. Now I just got done saying that I have major concerns about his effectiveness at the beginning of the season, but I definitely think he improves the frontcourt as a whole.

I'm hoping they can still grab somebody who slips through the cracks to help in the frontcourt. I'd actually like to see a 2/3 as well.

Joe

 

[sunsfn]

I am sure that Wilcox is close to 6' 10"-11" tall.
I do not remember him measuring that small.
I can tell you one thing, he is not skinny anymore.

I have thought if the suns end up with him he would be the tallest sun on the team, except now Marks.
When he played against the suns last year I am sure he was taller than KT by about 2 inches? and KT is about 6' 9" tall.

I need to check this out somehow.

 

[Errntknght]

Elindholm, "Wilcox:...(snip) so the only possible reason to acquire him would be to play him alongside Stoudemire. And that means no Diaw, who complements Stoudemire's (and Marion's) skills much better than Wilcox does."

I'm not all that enraptured with Wilcox, but my concern is more about the level of effort we might get from him rather than his fit with the team. I don't think he would supplant Diaw in the starting line up. Amare figures to need more bench time than Boris does and my guess is that Wilcox would back them both up so how well he fits with Diaw is the bigger question - and that appears good, IMO.

I really don't understand how anyone could have watched Diaw's progress in the regular season and the playoffs - and how much D'Antoni relied on him - and not think he has cemented his position in the starting lineup. And, playing at the high post. Holding KT entirely out of the Mavs series certainly indicates that D'A was comfortable with the small frontcourts he was using.

Still, I'm surprised that D'Antoni is trying to trade Kurt because the team did well with him playing. I'm inclined to think that Mike must have concerns that he will ever play that well again consistently. If its not that then I'm guessing that D'A is reaally enthralled with the small frontcourts he used in the playoffs and is willing to gamble with more athletic guys replacing Thomas.

 

[nowagimp]

Maybe he wants to unload KT's contract and have Wilcox signed by the sonics to a one year deal. Then he can see if Wilcox is for real and let him walk next year if he isnt worth it. This would get rid of KT's contract, give Wilcox a chance to prove himself and provide an out so the team can keep Marion, Diaw, and sign a top pick next year. If Wilcox is on a one year deal it would add flexibility to the suns options. Perhaps DA is worried that teams will be looking to rob the suns for a 1st rounder in order to get rid of KT's(or Marions) contract when Diaws kicks in.

 

[George O'Brien]

Holding KT entirely out of the Mavs series certainly indicates that D'A was comfortable with the small frontcourts he was using.

I don't think KT was in sufficient game shape to play in the Mavs series.

Eric is not enthusiastic about Banks, but he looked good in the games I watched him play late in the season. For me, the key with Banks is that he is better suited to an up tempo game than the slow down style of Doc Rivers and is considered a pretty good on the ball defender.

It would be nice if Banks instantly turned into a second Nash on offense, but he won't. What he will do is give the Suns a guy who played PG in college, is very strong, very fast, finishes at the basket well, plays tough defense, and shoot just well enough to keep opponents from backing off on him. In college, he was considered to be very good at drive and kick plays.

Most of the PGs under consideration don't play defense or can't shoot. That doesn't mean Banks is going to be great. He may end up as just a more physical version of Barbosa who can play defense. Still, I can't see how he isn't an improvement over House.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't think KT was in sufficient game shape to play in the Mavs series.

At the time pretty much everyone's view was that KT wasn't in good enough shape to play heavy minutes but we still expected him to play in spots. Presumeably D'A had him on the bench so he could insert him if he felt a situation called for it. Do you think he'd have had KT suit up if there was some reason he wouldn't get on the floor at all?

 

[BC867]

What Malone did that Stoudemire has not so far is become a consistent 10+ rpg guy, but he did have Mark Eaton to block out for him.

That's a key point. Malone was a Power Forward playing alongside a Center . . . Stoudemire's a Power Forward playing Center.

Has the league changed so much that it's not a factor?

 

[George O'Brien]

That's a key point. Malone was a Power Forward playing alongside a Center . . . Stoudemire's a Power Forward playing Center.

Has the league changed so much that it's not a factor?

+

The PF versus center thing is increasingly irreleveant. Big slow guys are becoming a liability. What matters is strength, quickness, and mental toughness.

In any case, the most successful rebounding teams have some guys block out so other guys go get the ball. I'm hoping Amare will learn to become better at blocking out and positioning; but he me may be better suited to going after the ball.

 

[sly fly]

Banks: There isn't much information on this guy, and what there is isn't especially promising. I think it's a fine signing, but I don't understand why so many on this board have annointed Banks a key member of the future core.

One question, Eric. Have you ever seen Marcus Banks play? Seriously.

Isn't especially promising? Again, have you seen him play?

Because, if you have seen him play, I doubt you could think this.

Marcus Banks will be a key member of the Suns future. It was simply a fantastic pick-up, and will go a long way in providing security/wins "if" Steve Nash happens to go down this year.

 

[George O'Brien]

For me, the key was that Banks developed a jump shot. Everyone knew he could drive the basket, but his shooting in Boston was not very impressive. However, the Wolves were very high on him, gave him the minutes and he had some success.

A few weeks back there was a thread which had a link to video of Banks. Obviously almost anybody can look good in selected video, but I was especially impressed with one of the shots he blocked. He may or may not be faster than Leandro, but there is no doubt he has more hops.

 

[nowagimp]

Banks: There isn't much information on this guy, and what there is isn't especially promising. I think it's a fine signing, but I don't understand why so many on this board have annointed Banks a key member of the future core.

One question, Eric. Have you ever seen Marcus Banks play? Seriously.

Isn't especially promising? Again, have you seen him play?

Because, if you have seen him play, I doubt you could think this.

Marcus Banks will be a key member of the Suns future. It was simply a fantastic pick-up, and will go a long way in providing security/wins "if" Steve Nash happens to go down this year.

I agree with sly fly. Banks is the player I expect to bloom this year for the suns. His biggrest impact will be to allow Nash rest and take good care of the ball(no turnovers) when Nash is on the bench. Banks is a better ball handler than any sun save, of course, Nash. Last year when Nash went to the bench, opposing defenses attacked the suns ball handling guards, house(???) and Barbs. Barbosa does not protect the ball with his body well so he's not the guy you want at the point under de3fensive pressure, Banks is quite good at that. If other teams think they can manhandle the suns PG's and make them fatigued, they better think again this year. No more giving up leads when Nash goes to the bench, and no more 3 minute rests for Nash, he'll be fresh at the end of the game to shoot the dagger or deliver the dime. Thats why Banks is going to have a potent impact. And you never know, Banks may actually learn from Nash to become a very good PG some day. If his mind is open, theres a good chance he can learn alot from the master.

 

[George O'Brien]

Marcus said all the right things, about always admiring Nash, wanting to learn from him etc. In any case, he can see there will be a lot of minutes because the Suns want to limit Nash's minutes.

Ideally, Banks could become more than just someone to give Nash some bench time. Right now, Barbosa and Amare are the only Suns really well suited to go to the basket. Boris has developed some, but he has a long way to go.

Banks is not only quick enough to get to the basket, but athletic enough and strong enough to finish. Plus he's a pretty good free throw shooter (80.3%). Last season his free throws per minute played was .098 compared to the Suns average of .059.

 

[boisesuns]

Right now, Barbosa and Amare are the only Suns really well suited to go to the basket. Boris has developed some, but he has a long way to go.

I'm not so sure about Amare. Maybe facing the basket from 8 feet in he can get to the hoop, but in that case, Diaw can as well.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not so sure about Amare. Maybe facing the basket from 8 feet in he can get to the hoop, but in that case, Diaw can as well.

However far away, Amare drew more fouls than anyone.

A key to going to the basket is the ability to score when fouled. The sad truth is that there is almost always contact, so the ability to score when fouled is absolutely crucial. Guys who try to avoid contact have a much harder time scroing on drives.

If Marion was more willing to accept contact, he'd be a superstar. People way he can't make his own shot, which is simply not true. The problem is that he doesn't have the willingness of a Maggette to force teams to foul him to get to the line. There's little doubt that the time he was hurt when undercut on drive to the basket has changed his willingness to attack. Still, it takes a lot of upper body strenth to be able to handle contact when being hammered.

The importance of upper body stength should not be underestimated. It is well known how important it is defense, but it's value on offense is almost as great. So while there are doubts about whether Banks is an adequate playmaker, there is not doubt that he is very strong and very very fast. I expect his ability to get to the basket will make drive and kick his most popular play.