Encouraging Cards article on azcentral

[D-Dogg]

This offensive system sucks.

THE SYSTEM WORKS!!!

 

[Mulli]

THE SYSTEM WORKS!!!

Go Patriots.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It has been 3 years of QB's that can't seem to process Whiz's offensive system.

3 years.

At what point do you finally question the system ? Seriously, rookie after rookie comes in and have success in the league. Look at the Houston Texans, they won with any QB they had.

At some point the system has to be questioned. How is it all these 2nd and 3rd year QB's can come in after a few months practice and succeed. Yet, our QB's need 3 years of work, and when it comes to game time still look like they have NO IDEA what they are supposed to do.

Friggin' John Skelton, Kevin Kolb, Derek Anderson, etc., etc. Bad QB's ? Yeah. Sure. The only thing I have seen them do in AZ is regress, which is hard to do when you are already terrible.

Say what you want about Leinart, he at least moved the ball when under Dennis Green. The minute Whiz came in to town, he regressed to 3rd string ability.

At this point, it is truly justifiable to call out Miller, Whiz, and this entire offensive system.

Excuses at this point, are just that, IMO.

Houston has made the playoffs once in their history and as little as 2 years ago they wanted to run Gary Kubiak out of town.

Again, it's the QB's. It's not like Hall, Anderson, or Leinart have had ANY success since leaving the Cards. If they had, then you have a gripe.

What 2nd and 3rd year QB's do you speak of that are having success? Because the only QB's I see having success have been around for awhile. Rogers, Brees, the Mannings, Brady, Ben, Ryan, Cutler, Stafford, Schaub, even Freeman have all been around for at least 4 years.

In fact I think the only teams with a winning record that has a younger QB is Minnesota with Ponder and Indy with Andrew Luck. Luck is a once a decade type QB and Adrian Peterson has much more to do with Minny's success than Ponder.

 

[D-Dogg]

I think the issue is with the assistant head coaching. Whis shouldn't be fired, but we should fire someone to make a big statement, and since we have an assistant head coach (I forget who he is, name is on the tip of my tongue...) we can fire hiim and get the psychological impact of firing the head coach without any shakeup.

Who's with me? Fire that assistant head coach, what's his name. Doesn't matter, just fire him.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I think the issue is with the assistant head coaching. Whis shouldn't be fired, but we should fire someone to make a big statement, and since we have an assistant head coach (I forget who he is, name is on the tip of my tongue...) we can fire hiim and get the psychological impact of firing the head coach without any shakeup.

Who's with me? Fire that assistant head coach, what's his name. Doesn't matter, just fire Grim.

Ftfy

 

[Jetstream Green]

Coaching matters in the NFL

but lets be honest what it can and cant do


for goodness sake -- the offense is starting a 7th and a 4th round rookie at offensive tackle, starting its 5-7, 180 lb 3rd down specialist as its every down back, and is playing a 5th round pick / 6th round pick (rookie) at QB.

and people want to complain about the play calls?

I am not absolving coaching, but seriously -- the team has a really serious talent issue on the offense. The talent issue is partly due to injury, partly due to poor personnel decisions by the FO.

Until the talent issue is fixed, who calls the plays and what plays are called hardly matter much.

If a coach with a new system can score points with the Cardinal personnel rolled out the last few Sundays -- send them to Canton immediately

Nothing else needs to be said, this is it

 

[D-Dogg]

Ftfy

It certainly does seem grim to suggest firing someone just to take the fall. Look, I'm not playing favorites or anything. I don't care if this assistant head coach was born in the USA or not. The boss is The boss, and Whis needs to fire that no-name assistant head coach. This team was born to run, but the assistant head coaching should be made the scapegoat. Look, we have to keep whis because of his glory days, but there is a darkness on the edge of town.

I'm sure the assistant head coach is a nice guy, and probably a football genius, but somebody's head has to roll.

Knowwhaddumsayin?

 

[Duckjake]

What 2nd and 3rd year QB's do you speak of that are having success? Because the only QB's I see having success have been around for awhile. Rogers, Brees, the Mannings, Brady, Ben, Ryan, Cutler, Stafford, Schaub, even Freeman have all been around for at least 4 years.

Didn't most if not all of those QBs start having success by their 2nd or 3rd season? The most noticeable thing is that most of those guys got better every year. Our guys get worse.

Looking at the results below I'd say its really hard to judge how a QB should be doing right away and how a young QB impacts a teams record.

Eli Manning had a mediocre at best rookie season but the Giants finished 11-5. BenR as a rookie with the Steelers went 15-1 and won the SB. Tom Brady won a SB his first year as a starter. So did Kurt Warner. Peyton Manning was 3-13 as a rookie and 13-3 his second year.

Flacco's rookie season the Ravens were 11-5. Brees with the Chargers didn't have a winning record as a starter until his 4th season. Rivers was 14-2 his first year as a starter (3rd in the NFL) Rodgers threw for over 4000 yards and 28 TDs his first year as a starter and the Packers were 6-10.

 

[seesred]

Horton has been good because he has great players! Coaches are as good as that people they are coaching. You can have the greatest scheme with 2nd tier players and end up looking bad as a coach.

On offense we have no QB! Period. Our offensive line is made uo of rookies and average players. We have NO running game. Howling has done unbelievable but..... Housler may become very good the questions are still out there. I don't care who your coach is if you end up with under 50 yds passing in 60 minutes. You get 6 turnovers in great field position and come away with 3.

Yes we have a great WR add Roberts and then?

I always liked Whiz but after watching our QB and Oline it's time to consider a change. I'm heartbroken over how great our D is and how real bad Offense looks. We need to revamp our offense almost entirely.

GBR
40

 

[Cheesebeef]

Didn't most if not all of those QBs start having success by their 2nd or 3rd season? The most noticeable thing is that most of those guys got better every year. Our guys get worse.

Looking at the results below I'd say its really hard to judge how a QB should be doing right away and how a young QB impacts a teams record.

Eli Manning had a mediocre at best rookie season but the Giants finished 11-5. BenR as a rookie with the Steelers went 15-1 and won the SB. Tom Brady won a SB his first year as a starter. So did Kurt Warner. Peyton Manning was 3-13 as a rookie and 13-3 his second year.

Flacco's rookie season the Ravens were 11-5. Brees with the Chargers didn't have a winning record as a starter until his 4th season. Rivers was 14-2 his first year as a starter (3rd in the NFL) Rodgers threw for over 4000 yards and 28 TDs his first year as a starter and the Packers were 6-10.

not only that but Ponder's in his second year, has gotten better this year than last and his team is 6-4. Dalton's also played very well this year and has his team just one game back in the wild car race as well.

and none of that takes into account how well 1st year guys have played this year with Luck leading the Colts to a 6-4 record and Wilson playing decent ball on a 6-4 Seahawks team.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Didn't most if not all of those QBs start having success by their 2nd or 3rd season? The most noticeable thing is that most of those guys got better every year. Our guys get worse.

Looking at the results below I'd say its really hard to judge how a QB should be doing right away and how a young QB impacts a teams record.

Eli Manning had a mediocre at best rookie season but the Giants finished 11-5. BenR as a rookie with the Steelers went 15-1 and won the SB. Tom Brady won a SB his first year as a starter. So did Kurt Warner. Peyton Manning was 3-13 as a rookie and 13-3 his second year.

Flacco's rookie season the Ravens were 11-5. Brees with the Chargers didn't have a winning record as a starter until his 4th season. Rivers was 14-2 his first year as a starter (3rd in the NFL) Rodgers threw for over 4000 yards and 28 TDs his first year as a starter and the Packers were 6-10.

Good points.

The Cards problem is they never stink enough to get the top QB's, like Luck or Manning, and they are never good enough to take their time and break in a young QB, like Rivers or Rogers.

 

[Duckjake]

Good points.

The Cards problem is they never stink enough to get the top QB's, like Luck or Manning, and they are never good enough to take their time and break in a young QB, like Rivers or Rogers.

That's a very good point. Given that, have they ever even tried to work that way? They never really had a young higher round backup to Lomax or Plummer preferring to go with older veterans and Bidwill got on this backup Cowboys QB kick that got us Cliff Stoudt, Gary Hogeboom and Steve Beuerlein.

They've also had horrendous luck with the QBs they have drafted high. Joe Namath signs with the Jets instead of the Cardinals. Pisarkiewicz was awful and the Cards gave up on him after two seasons. Kelly Stouffer wouldn't sign with the Cards. Timm Rosenbach got hurt and quit after only two seasons. Matt Leinart washed out.

 

[john h]

Not to worry, Rod Graves is on top of this for sure.

Karma, you sort of hit it on the nose. Coaching changes, play calling, etc are not going to cure this teams problems. Only good players and in particular a QB will help us. These other things are like swatting at a mosquito while the tiger is carrying you away.

 

[snowthedirtbub]

I'm tired of being excited about "encouraging" or "optimistic" articles on the Cards every year halfway through the season. How about turning some of that optimism into wins.

 

[football karma]

Didn't most if not all of those QBs start having success by their 2nd or 3rd season? The most noticeable thing is that most of those guys got better every year. Our guys get worse.

Looking at the results below I'd say its really hard to judge how a QB should be doing right away and how a young QB impacts a teams record.

Eli Manning had a mediocre at best rookie season but the Giants finished 11-5. BenR as a rookie with the Steelers went 15-1 and won the SB. Tom Brady won a SB his first year as a starter. So did Kurt Warner. Peyton Manning was 3-13 as a rookie and 13-3 his second year.

Flacco's rookie season the Ravens were 11-5. Brees with the Chargers didn't have a winning record as a starter until his 4th season. Rivers was 14-2 his first year as a starter (3rd in the NFL) Rodgers threw for over 4000 yards and 28 TDs his first year as a starter and the Packers were 6-10.

Each of those guys had competent offensive lines where they could productively run the football.

Rogers is a little unfair because he sat and learned the same system for three years before he started. He knew the offense backwards and forwards. Nevertheless, GB still ran the ball 27 times a game for 4.1 yds an attempt.

Manning was on a team that ran the ball 29 times a game for 4.7 and attempt.

Ben R was on a team that ran the ball 38 (!) times a game his rookie season and averaged 4.7 a carry

Flacco was on a team that ran the ball 37 times a game and averaged 4.0 a carry.


one could argue that over Skelton's three years -- the offensive line has gotten worse each successive year

 

[LarryStalling]

Oh please spare me another round of Whiz being the offensive coordinator. Just look at his record when he has been such. Miller is just a yes man for him anyway. So there is no need to make a change of such limited and failed scope of philosophy.

 

[52brandon]

can he do another hell of a job finding a head coach

why? I think he's a great HC. Definitely the best we've ever had. And not just because of the 2 NFCW banners and one NFC banner. He was a key part of turning this organization into one players actually want to represent. 5 years ago Calais would be gone. DWASH would laugh at the contract offer. We'd be the laughingstock of the league. Remember when we started this season with the longest win streak in like 40 years? Whiz was a great HC 6 weeks ago...

I'm tired of being excited about "encouraging" or "optimistic" articles on the Cards every year halfway through the season. How about turning some of that optimism into wins.

should we all just bitch and complain instead? I prefer to look at anything positive I can find. Enjoying following my team sounds so much more appealing than lamenting it

I don't totally agree that it's the play calling. It's the execution of the plays called.

It's easy to question the play calling when the QB can't/doesn't make the play. Was it a bad play call by Miller/Whiz when Skelton misses a wide open Fitz by 8 yards on one of the most basic throws a NFL QB can have?

Do you think Mike McCarthy is going to look like a great offensive mind if he has Lucas Harrell rather than Aaron Rogers throwing the ball?

Look at Mike Shanahan. He was a great offensive coach when he had Elway. Not so much when he had John Beck and Rex Grossman at QB.

it's not TOTALLY the play calling. It's all of it, the play designs, the play calls, and the play execution, the adjustments, personnel choices, EVERYTHING.

Running LSH right up the middle every 1st down is a stupid call
Going 4 wide when the QB has less than a second in the pocket is a stupid play call
Not chipping with a RB/FB/TE while our QB is getting killed is a failure to adjust
Batiste even still getting a paycheck is a personnel failure
Not getting another QB while Kolb is hurt and you know Skelton sucks is a personnel failure

I know there's a thousand more I'm forgetting, but those stick out in my mind

 

[Duckjake]

why? I think he's a great HC. Definitely the best we've ever had. And not just because of the 2 NFCW banners and one NFC banner. He was a key part of turning this organization into one players actually want to represent. 5 years ago Calais would be gone. DWASH would laugh at the contract offer. We'd be the laughingstock of the league. Remember when we started this season with the longest win streak in like 40 years? Whiz was a great HC 6 weeks ago...

What a sad franchise the Cardinals have been when a HC that hasn't even won half his regular season games is considered the best we've ever had.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Yeah, the problem is that if we get rid of Miller, KW will just bring in another puppet who will fail, because he's just calling the same crap. We need an OC with autonomy to tailor the system to our team, and have the needed independence to call a good game. I don't see KW allowing that to happen. Unless Mikey B decides to force the issue, it won't happen. And the cycle of suck will continue.

In my opinion, he only way for The Whis to keep his job (barring a 6-game win streak to end the season) would be to gut out the offensive coaching staff, and start from scratch with a new, autonomous, OC (et. al.) that can start to rebuild the offense from ground-zero.

 

[52brandon]

What a sad franchise the Cardinals have been when a HC that hasn't even won half his regular season games is considered the best we've ever had.

that's the thing I think most people forget. This franchise WAS pathetic. The fact that it has any value today had a lot to do with what Whiz did with them. Don't get me wrong, it's not all him, but he was a key piece

 

[Duckjake]

that's the thing I think most people forget. This franchise WAS pathetic. The fact that it has any value today had a lot to do with what Whiz did with them. Don't get me wrong, it's not all him, but he was a key piece

I hear you, if the Cards win only one or two more games it will be the 9th time in the last 14 years they've finished either 8-8, 6-10 or 5-11. At least they're consistent.

 

[machgman]

Whisenhut and the Cards Super Bowl success on the offensive side was due to Kurt Warner and Haley listening to Warner and using the plays Warner thought up.

It really should be obvious to everyone that once Warner left, the Cards offense lost all of its firepower and ability to execute.

Whiz had just been riding on Warner's success and taking credit when none of it was due to him.

 

[Matt L]

In my opinion, he only way for The Whis to keep his job (barring a 6-game win streak to end the season) would be to gut out the offensive coaching staff, and start from scratch with a new, autonomous, OC (et. al.) that can start to rebuild the offense from ground-zero.

What would be Whiz's job if he is giving away this authority?

 

[40yearfan]

Coaching matters in the NFL

but lets be honest what it can and cant do


for goodness sake -- the offense is starting a 7th and a 4th round rookie at offensive tackle, starting its 5-7, 180 lb 3rd down specialist as its every down back, and is playing a 5th round pick / 6th round pick (rookie) at QB.

and people want to complain about the play calls?

I am not absolving coaching, but seriously -- the team has a really serious talent issue on the offense. The talent issue is partly due to injury, partly due to poor personnel decisions by the FO.

Until the talent issue is fixed, who calls the plays and what plays are called hardly matter much.

If a coach with a new system can score points with the Cardinal personnel rolled out the last few Sundays -- send them to Canton immediately

 

[52brandon]

Whisenhut and the Cards Super Bowl success on the offensive side was due to Kurt Warner and Haley listening to Warner and using the plays Warner thought up.

It really should be obvious to everyone that once Warner left, the Cards offense lost all of its firepower and ability to execute.

Whiz had just been riding on Warner's success and taking credit when none of it was due to him.

well that totally explains how Warner was so successful in his later years in STL and when he was in NY...