Enough with the excuses.

[Lars the Red]

The NBA game is horribly over-rated. Say what you want about the team not having Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd, etc., that brand of basketball just isn't anywhere near as good as we have been lead to believe.

The excuses are as plentiful as clankers put up by the Americans.

-We didn't have shooters.

-We didn't have inside players.

-The refs called bad games.

-The 3 point line was too close.

-Brown didn't do a good job.

-The games were too short.

Is any of that really true? Should it have mattered anyway?

The fact is we had a former scoring champ in AI with a career average of 27 ppg. A playground allstar that has a career average of over 20 ppg in Marbury. A league MVP and player most recognized as having one of the most complete games in the NBA in Duncan who averages 23 ppg. A former ROY that put up over 20ppg last season. An athletic defender who also managed to put up 19 ppg last season. Another great defender & ROY that averaged 21 ppg. A ROY runnerup that averaged 21 ppg. A PF that averaged 15 and 12. An athletic guard that averaged 15 & 5. A 6'10 SF that averaged 17-10-4 last season. And the NCAA POY. But we couldn't score.

As a matter of fact, we could score. We averaged almost 86 points a game. Add in another 8 minutes and you get 103 points, hell, that's some serious offense in the NBA. But we were doing it against those slow, white guys we all hear so much bitching about during the pre draft discussions.

The problem that seems to be slipping past many is the fact that we could stop the other guys from scoring. Take out the joke of a game that is Angola and you see that we're about dead even with our opponents on a point basis. How could we possibly give up an average of over 100 NBA points a game to a bunch of unathletic, slow, white guys, that can't even make the rosters on the worst NBA teams? Don't we have the best athletes? Isn't athletics a critical component to playing defense? Of course it is, that, and another factor called heart. Heart, enthusiasm, drive, desire, commitment, self sacrifice, call it what you want, it's critical to stopping the other guys from scoring. And it's the one component that should have been in place the moment the committee called. But it's not.

Most of you love the NBA. You will never see the flaws in it and if you do, choose to brush them off as unimportant. I hate the way the game has gone. I really feel like the better product from a sports standpoint isn't on our shores. The better players, from a basketball standpoint, aren't on our shores. I hope that comes back around, but it will take a public that demands it, and the one's that don't like the game anymore, may have given it up as a lost cause.

I haven't. I know we can dominate again with great play, from great players, that play like great teams.

 

[sly fly]

So, your beef is with the Olymic commitee who chose this squad?

I'm sure they could have put a "team" together, but would it have mattered?

I'll start...

- PG Sam Cassell
- F Matt Harpring
- C Tim Duncan
- G Rip Hamilton (DETROIT)
- F Ben Wallace (DETROIT)

- Shawn Marion (Based on his current play)
- Brad Miller
- Theo Ratliff
- Michael Redd
- Chauncey Billups (DETROIT)
- Tayshaun Prince (DETROIT)

This is a "team" comprised of current teammates, players who "know" how to play the game, and hustlers.

We don't need a team full of stars. We just need players who get it. Who hate to lose and will bite your neck trying to avoid it.

How would have this team fared?

 

[scotsman13]

sly, rip and ben wallace turned down invites.

and ratliff would have had the same problems that amare and okafor had in that the international game doesnt like shot blockers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

sly, rip and ben wallace turned down invites.

and ratliff would have had the same problems that amare and okafor had in that the international game doesnt like shot blockers.

dude - I would hardly go as far to call Amare a "shotblocker" already. The guy is gonna be an abosulte stud - but scotsman - I think you way over rate his progress as of now.

 

[elindholm]

I haven't. I know we can dominate again with great play, from great players, that play like great teams.

Lars, the problem with your endless tirade is that you keep changing your mind about what the main focus of your complaint is. Mainly you've been talking about selfishness and inaccuracy on offense, but you just analyzed how the offense wasn't really the problem. So now you're railing against the defense -- which is an easy target, since the defense was indeed terrible -- while simultaneously blaming the U.S.'s shortcomings on an inadequate appreciation (or respect, or interest) in team play.

So which is it?

I guess the "if only we had Garnett" crowd figures that, with enough additional superstars, the offense would have been so overpowering that the defense wouldn't have mattered. This, frankly, was the case with the 1992 "Dream Team," which (let's face it) was stocked with some pretty piss-poor defenders (albeit alongside some good ones). Barkley, Bird, Mullin, Miller -- defensive stoppers? I don't think so.

But either way, we didn't have Garnett, and the offense was merely mediocre. That could have been due to selfishness, poor fundamentals, a lack of comfort with team roles, nervousness -- or, yes, even poor coaching. With so few games to evaluate, I don't see how we can know which of those was the most telling factor.

The defense, by and large, was awful. Maybe this was because of "selfishness," but in fact most of the players are considered pretty good defenders in the NBA. The designated defensive anchor, Duncan, is praised for his fundamentals on a regular basis, yet had little impact on the defensive end in Athens and couldn't even keep himself on the floor. Was it "laziness"? Not having watched much of the games, I can't say, but those who have watched have said that the defensive effort has looked pretty good. Maybe again we're back to confusion over roles, or simply general frustration. Are we obliged to reject that possible explanation because it might sound like an "excuse"?

If scorers in any league get on a roll, they'll make any defense look bad. If the defense of American players is so bad, how come Ginobili doesn't score 25+ points per night in the NBA -- going up against those same Americans?

My point is this: The team lost. They did some things well, and other things not so well. Their opponents also did some things well and other things not so well. I don't view the loss as a referendum on Everything That is Wrong in the NBA, and realistically, I don't see how anyone can view it that way. You can still argue, if you are so inclined (and evidently you are) that everything is wrong in the NBA, but these seven games don't really speak to the point one way or another. The win against Spain didn't prove that everything is okay, and the loss against Argentina didn't prove that the sky is falling.

 

[scotsman13]

dude - I would hardly go as far to call Amare a "shotblocker" already. The guy is gonna be an abosulte stud - but scotsman - I think you way over rate his progress as of now.

cheese i sorry if i came across as saying that amare was going to be a major shot blocker (aka ratliff). the point i was trying to make was in the international game going for a block seems to be a good way to get a foul real quick even if you didnt touch them. part of amare's problems with international rules is that he plays to close to the basket. ratliff doesnt even have amare offensive game (ratliff is a great defender, but not much of a offensive game).

personally i think that the best amare will ever do is around 2 blocks a game. the main thing that will make amare great is his drive to take it to the hoop and willingness to make contact (offense).

 

[Joe Mama]

My point is this: The team lost. They did some things well, and other things not so well. Their opponents also did some things well and other things not so well. I don't view the loss as a referendum on Everything That is Wrong in the NBA, and realistically, I don't see how anyone can view it that way. You can still argue, if you are so inclined (and evidently you are) that everything is wrong in the NBA, but these seven games don't really speak to the point one way or another. The win against Spain didn't prove that everything is okay, and the loss against Argentina didn't prove that the sky is falling.

amen to that.

Lars, you and others enjoy comparing this team to the original dream team, but I'm sure you realize how unfair that is. It doesn't seem to matter to you though because you are just trying to support your dislike for this team and the NBA today in general with any argument you can grab.

If this team was comprised of the best NBA players from the United States they would have averaged 20-30 point victories. You may say that the original dream team averaged victories at 40+ points, but the difference is the competition not the dream team. The original dream team scored pocket after bucket after forcing turnovers by opposing guards who weren't anywhere near as good as the guards this dream team faced.

If you don't think that this team would have won the gold medal simply by switching Okafor, Amare, or even Carlos Boozer with Kevin Garnett you just don't know what you are talking about. They still would not have blown out teams like the dream teams of the past, but they would have won the gold medal. The fact is this team was horribly built. There were only a couple of players on the team that fit is international style well, and they needed to be surrounded by players who do fit instead of mere images of themselves.

On the court I figure the NBA is actually headed in the right direction. The new defense rules have made shooting and passing much more important. The players haven't caught up completely. That's obvious. They will. They'll have to. If they don't we will see every NBA team with a few American big men and swingman with the rest of the roster filled with international players who can pass and shoot.

I don't think the NBA is perfect. I don't believe that for a second. But I definitely don't believe it says that as you make it out to be, and I enjoy watching it much more than college or international basketball. And that doesn't make me an uneducated, hip-hop loving, gangster either.

Joe Mama

 

[ASUCHRIS]

No kidding, these anti-NBA tirades are getting repetitive and tiresome. There is a simple solution to this problem; if you don't like it, don't watch it, at least until the style of play is to your liking. Or get NBA archives of old games where they "really knew how to play".

 

[Cheesebeef]

cheese i sorry if i came across as saying that amare was going to be a major shot blocker (aka ratliff). the point i was trying to make was in the international game going for a block seems to be a good way to get a foul real quick even if you didnt touch them. part of amare's problems with international rules is that he plays to close to the basket. ratliff doesnt even have amare offensive game (ratliff is a great defender, but not much of a offensive game).

personally i think that the best amare will ever do is around 2 blocks a game. the main thing that will make amare great is his drive to take it to the hoop and willingness to make contact (offense).

gotcha and agree wholeheartedly with everything above.

 

[Gaddabout]

Lars, I hate to say this, but your repetitive rants on the NBA's hip-hop culture are beginning to sound vaguely racist. No offense, but that's my growing perception. I look forward to a better understanding whereby I'm not led to believe that.

I think a variety of things led to this embarassing run by the U.S. team:

1. The overstated lack of shooters when there were plenty who probably should've made the team just because they were better players/ambassadors than those represented. Michael Redd's name came up often.

2. Only one true center. Shaq declined and KG and Wallace, both of whom would've been killer extending their defense to those passers on the perimeter, declined. Are you going to tell me there wasn't another American center available? Did they just assume they could plug in power forwards and still have an advantage?

3. The absence of a go-to guy. To me, this is what distinguished the other teams from the Americans. All of these NBAers are used to being "the man" on their teams, but no one took the reigns and said, "I will be the hero or the fall guy. Put the weight on me." I guess I'm really saying there was an obvious lack of leadership here. When you look back with the benefit of hindsight, who was the selection group expecting to provide that voice? It probably should've been LeBron, but we all know he's way too young for that role ...

4. Poor defense. I'm going to put part of this on Duncan, because he was slow in rotation in all the games I saw. He simply didn't seem inspired and would often get caught in no man's land on defense while those 8-foot passers were hitting midgets in the lane for layups. someone of his smarts and abilities should've had a much better showing. I'm going to put part of this on Larry Brown, because, as little as I know about basketball compared to him, this amateur basketball mind has concluded he should have simplified the defensive game plan.

I do *not* think this has anything to do with NBA culture. I think the process of selecting the team will change and the best part of the NBA culture will be incorporated with what best works against European-style basketball, and the U.S. will be back on top again. I think you'll see Coach K leading this team, and I think you'll see more veterans being invited in the first round of invites.

 

[George O'Brien]

The coach of the Spanish team complained bitterly that the game was called like an NBA game rather than a FIBA game. Presumably he was talking about not many traveling calls and letting the inside guys play physical. The fact that Duncan fouled out against Argentina suggests it was called differently. Not badly necessarily, but differently.

The one thing about FIBA basketball that I am unclear about is the use of what appears to be moving screens and picks. It appeared to me that the USA team was totally unprepared for moving screens.

 

[Joe Mama]

The coach of the Spanish team complained bitterly that the game was called like an NBA game rather than a FIBA game. Presumably he was talking about not many traveling calls and letting the inside guys play physical. The fact that Duncan fouled out against Argentina suggests it was called differently. Not badly necessarily, but differently.

The one thing about FIBA basketball that I am unclear about is the use of what appears to be moving screens and picks. It appeared to me that the USA team was totally unprepared for moving screens.

I thought that there were several bad calls or no calls that worked in the favor of team USA yesterday. However of the 5 fouls called against Tim Duncan only one of them was actually a foul. 3 of the 5 or just very bad calls. I'll never understand how the referees allowed opposing teams to continually hack Duncan and climb all over his back on the boards while on the other end of the court they whistled him for fouls every time he tried to block a shot or touched another player going for a rebound.

That said, I'm not sure that team USA would have won yesterday even if Tim Duncan had been able to stay out of foul trouble. The rather undisciplined, aggressive defense they played basically the entire tournament just does not work against a team like Argentina with its great passing and outside shooting (yesterday).

Most importantly team USA struggled with its shooting again yesterday. They may have struggled with the offending international basketball. They may not have been a very good passing team. But in the end (as far as the gold medal is concerned) it was their lack of outside shooting that killed this team.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

The coach of the Spanish team complained bitterly that the game was called like an NBA game rather than a FIBA game. Presumably he was talking about not many traveling calls and letting the inside guys play physical.

You don't think that he was just complaining about the officiating because the losing coach always complains about the officiating after a game he felt his team should have won? That's a much simpler explanation.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Yawn.

Oh wait did you say something Lars?

 

[George O'Brien]

I had an odd sense of deja vu with the USA team compared to the Suns team last season. Neither team shot well from the outside, both wanted to get the ball inside, and both struggled against zones.

One of the problems with not having good outside shooting is that it is too easy for opponents to play defense. The NBA does not permit a pure zone, but it is close enough that attempts to get to the basket through dribble penitration are generally thwarted and the low post is double teamed.

The techniques for attacking zones never really work if the offense can't hit outside shots. Passing the ball is a necessary but not sufficient requirement, because against the zone it does not open up paths to the basket. Let a zone set up in the paint, and all the passing in the world is not going to make it more open if no one can hit outside shots.

A common "solution" is to run a trap defense to create breakaway layups, but good passing teams can always beat the trap as the USA team learned. Also, It appears that the trap is vulnerable to teams that use a lot of screens, although there aren't that many teams that use screens because they don't have very good outside shooters.

There is a chance that the Suns will start using the zone more if Hunter turns into the shot blocker they have been looking for. One plus about becoming experienced playing zone is that it also means becoming experienced at playing against the zone. I think it is notable that the USA team did not play zone even against teams that did not have great outside shooters.

There are good reasons to believe the Suns will be better at shooting from the outside this season. Nash is an outstanding three point shooter, Jacobsen seems to have improved the quickness of his shot and will benefit from getting better passes, Carbakapa is likely to return to form as a shooter, and Lampe is a fine outside shooter even if that's not what he is being asked to do. Having more options means that weak three point shooters like Johnson and Richardson won't have to take as many long shots. Hopefully, Marion will get the ball in the corner rather than on the wing if he is expected to shoot three's.

Let's hope.

 

[Phill11]

How would have this team fared?

Nice team. I like it. Not sure it'd go for the Gold though. Bronze maybe. Bo Outlaw is worthy, IMO. He'd be a great sparkplug off the bench. Hard working, and 110% of him would be playing. Not 50% like players on this years squad.

 

[Joe Mama]

Nice team. I like it. Not sure it'd go for the Gold though. Bronze maybe. Bo Outlaw is worthy, IMO. He'd be a great sparkplug off the bench. Hard working, and 110% of him would be playing. Not 50% like players on this years squad.

Except for one player on team USA I really did not see this lack of effort. IMO this is the easy explanation for their struggles because people believe that any group of American NBA players should not lose in international play.

1. No shooting

2. Redundant players

3. Almost no international experience

4. They struggled with the officiating. This is a gentle way of saying that the referees sucked, and it hurt team USA more than other teams because of the way they relied on Tim Duncan. Doug Collins said yesterday that in the Olympics Tim Duncan was picking up a foul every 7 minutes in the Olympics. In the NBA last season he averaged a foul every 15 minutes.

5. Offensively, Larry Brown refused to adjust to this team's strengths instead of making them adjust to him until the last game. Remember when Marbury first played for the Phoenix Suns, and he was trying too hard to play more like chas Jason Kidd? He and the rest of the team did not do well. I'm not saying that Larry Brown should have allowed Marbury and Allen Iverson to dominate the ball like they did in the NBA, but the two of them and the rest of the team were clearly a frayed like afraid to take open shots unless the shot clock was about to run out. Their offense was much better yesterday when the players were trying to score when they had the opportunities.

6. This team gets two weeks to work together before the Olympics. Teams they are playing against a basically been playing together for years.

7. The other teams in the Olympics are getting better and better.

IMO those are the reasons this team lost. It had nothing to do with effort. And quite frankly it's really unfair to the players who didn't make the sacrifice to go play to have to hear this kind of crap from the media, other NBA players who were not invited, WNBA players, etc.

 

[George O'Brien]

Are reasons the same as excuses?

IMHO, the game against Puerto Rico was their only real embarrassment. Even the 2002 team at least kep things close, but that game remains a blot of this team's record. None the less, they recovered and played at a credible level for the rest of the Olympics. Credible, but not great.

Considering the difficulties facting this team: limited practice, poor selection of players, lack of international experience, etc., it is remarkable that they actually could have won the gold with just one more game of good shooting. The fact that they came back tough in the Lithuania game showed they had the heart to keep fighting and to keep trying to get better.

At the same time, I think there may emerge a new respect for international basketball. If people pay attention, the fact that the USA team beat Spain and Lithuania should be recognized for what it was - a real accomplishment.

 

[Lars the Red]

Wow, I go to Vegas for the weekend, feel like crap and come back to this kind of response. I'm really bummed. I had hoped we might be seeing things more clearly. Oh well, here goes:

So, your beef is with the Olymic commitee who chose this squad?

Yes, I'm disappointed that they appeared to look more at who to market that who might compliment the team, but they really don't have a great number of high profile players that can fill the need of team player. As for your teams, I don't know. Ben might have problems staying on the floor. His game is one of brute force and his passing skills are horrible. Tayshaun and Billups are really streaky shooters. Sam can forget about distribution with the best of them, and Theo doesn't do that much for me, but thats debatable.

Lars, the problem with your endless tirade is that you keep changing your mind about what the main focus of your complaint is.

Not really. I simply pointed out that as bad as our offense was from an execution standpoint, our defense, which I would have assumed would be the strength of the team, was equally bad. I was just trying to point out that we really did score enough to win, (it took a bunch of shots to get there), but our D was really disappointing considering the comments that come regularly around here about the lack of athleticism in the International players.

Lars, you and others enjoy comparing this team to the original dream team, but I'm sure you realize how unfair that is.

I'm not trying to compare them from a quality of player standpoint, I'm trying to point out the guys that are recognized HOF'ers were willing to step into small roles, to make an effort to understand how to play a different style of game, with different officials on a different court. They need to be recognized as a group for their ability to make personal sacrifices.

There is a simple solution to this problem; if you don't like it, don't watch it,

I really don't much anymore. I watch a bunch of college, and usually the playoffs. And that's really sad. I used to eat and sleep basketball. It's a really incredible game, and it's great to see solid teams play well. The crime is watching multi-million dollar guys not appreciate the game.

Lars, I hate to say this, but your repetitive rants on the NBA's hip-hop culture are beginning to sound vaguely racist.

Loathing a trend, or attitude isn't racist. It's a taste thing. How could it be racist? Does every black person like Hip Hop? Is Hip Hop only liked by black people? The notion doesn't really make sense. I do truly despise the attitude and antics of those that embrace that culture. It's the least skilled form of musical expression. It glorifies the most negative qualities in people, as in degrading women, drug use, praising violence, articulating through the most inappropriate language, embracing crime, you name it, if it's bad, Hip Hop pumps it up. Trust me, I'm not some squidly little prude that doesn't understand the roots. I worked on videos with Dr. Dre. I had enough chances to see what these guys were all about. It's not pretty. Nothing like seeing a bunch of guys hanging around on a shoot at 9:00 AM with there kids, sucking down Old English and Cognac out of paper bags. By 10:00 the kids were joining in. Nice.

Once you get past the 'cool', you see it for the sh*t it really is.

Yawn.

Nice, Chris. Good to see you bring intellect to the discussion.

Except for one player on team USA I really did not see this lack of effort.

In spurts I think we all saw some solid offensive and defensive intensity, but you really didn't see it on a regular enough basis.


I'll leave it alone for now. I hope the Suns continue to make themselves into the type of team that entertains, along the lines of a Mavs or Kings. We'll see. I hope you guys realize that I bitch because I really love the game, not a particular league, or player, but the game. I just think we deserve better. Oh, and I did find it an interesting point when Stern pointed out that most every team in the league would be happy with the roster that played for the US.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Sorry to hear about your weekend lars. Look, it may seem harsh how people responded, but this argument has run it's course. The NBA is what it is. International basketball is a completely different beast. I doubt the NBA is going to change very much any time soon, but for many hardcore basketball fans to hear about how the state of the NBA is crap, that pisses many of us off. I hear it all the time for people, and while there may be some truth to it, many of us find the current NBA very entertaining, and I personally am sick of hearing people rip on it. I understand what you are saying, but their is little point in worrying or complaining about something that isn't going to change. Perhaps you should learn to enjoy the "new" NBA...... Come to the dark side Lars....