EPSN Releases Top 10 Point Guards of all time

[dreamcastrocks]

Here are the overall results of the voters there.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards


1. Magic 10 10 10 10 9 10 10 10 10 9 10 10 10 128
2. Oscar 9 9 9 8 10 9 9 -- 9 10 9 9 9 109
3. Isiah 8 8 8 9 3 8 7 5 5 2 6 7 8 84
4. Stockton 5 5 7 5 8 2 8 9 8 7 8 6 3 81
5. Cousy -- 7 5 7 6 6 4 8 7 6 5 8 7 76
6. Frazier 4 6 -- 6 2 3 6 7 6 3 7 4 6 60
7. Kidd 6 4 6 3 5 5 5 4 4 8 2 3 2 57
8. Tiny -- 1 4 4 1 7 2 6 2 5 -- 1 4 37
9. Nash -- 2 -- 2 4 4 1 3 3 4 4 2 5 34
10. Payton -- 3 2 -- 7 1 -- 1 -- 1 3 5 -- 23
Others receiving votes: Jerry West (7), Lenny Wilkens (6), Scottie Pippen (3), Maurice Cheeks (3), Chauncey Billups (2), Dave Bing (2), Mark Jackson (1), Earl Monroe (1), Micheal Ray Richardson (1)


What do you guys think?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think Kidd gets WAYYYY too much credit. Most over-rated player of all time - I'd have him behind Nash and Payton in his prime - would have said that when he was a Sun also - hated him on the Suns.

 

[Gaddabout]

I loved Tiny Archibald, but was he really an All-Time great PG, or did he just happen to play on the Celtics?

 

[Gaddabout]

And how does Jerry "The Pose" West not make the TOp 10 list?

 

[King A]

I miss KJ with his 3 consecutive 20 and 10 seasons.

 

[nowagimp]

Lets face it these rating are rediculous. Cousy shot 37% FG's for his career in an era that defenses did not contest shots like the modern era. This list is full of bullsh__.

On this list, Magic is no 1, oscar no2, probably stockton was #3, then isiah, Nash, peyton, archibald, frazier, Kidd, more like that. Kidd would be top 4, but no outside shot is a huge weakness as it is needed to open up the passing lanes in the half court set.

 

[Bada0Bing]

It lost all credibility when I saw that Pippen got votes. That’s just stupid.

 

[nowagimp]

one more incredible stat for cousy: he never even shot 40% FG's in a single season. You have got to be bleeding celtic green to think he is even a top ten point guard. I'd take KJ anytime over cousy, archibald, even frazier. Its like that stupid all time team tounament crap on espn. Many of those guys wouldnt even start today for any team.

 

[SunsTzu]

I think Kidd gets WAYYYY too much credit. Most over-rated player of all time - I'd have him behind Nash and Payton in his prime - would have said that when he was a Sun also - hated him on the Suns.

I agree 100%. Thing that bothered me most about Kidd was how over-rated his defense was.

 

[Nasser22]

Kidd was better than Nash. He wasn't as good of a shooter, but he wasn't bad, he is the much better rebounder too. I think he's a better passer also because look at Nash's assists with Dallas. D'Antoni's offense is the only reason he's leading the league right now and improved so much in his 30's. And even if Kidd's defense was overrated, he's at least much better than Nash there. Nash is horrible on D.

 

[tlim]

Comparison between Kidd and Nash.

Nash has the better shot and court vision. He also slashes into the paint faster, and has better handles.

Kidd plays better D. He's not an All Defense First Team, but he's a lot better in this department than Nash.
Kidd boards better.
His assists aren't that much lower than Nash's.
He can play the post position to start the offense.

So it's kind of tough to say. What do you like more? More defense, or more offense?

It's almost a wash in that aspect.

As for Jerry West, he's a 2 guard. So I tip my hat to those people even putting him gave him nominations for the point guard spot.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I would like to thank ESPN for answering their own question.

Does Steve Nash belong in the Hall of Fame?

Well if he is the #9 PG of all time already, I certainly hope so.

 

[Ollie]

Getting votes : Scottie Pippen, Maurice Cheeks, Chauncey Billups, Mark " I'll play 'til I'm 39 to be n°2 on the all-time passing list" Jackson, Micheal Ray Richardson (he's a very cool guy but not even a top-30 all-time NBA PG)... 'nuf said.

They forgot Mookie Blaylock, Dennis Johnson, Ron Harper, Rod Strickland, Jalen Rose, Rafer Alston and Reggie Theus with 'stache to be complete.

 

[mribnik]

If KJ could have stayed healthy, he'd be top 5 easily IMO.

 

[nowagimp]

Kidd was better than Nash. He wasn't as good of a shooter, but he wasn't bad, he is the much better rebounder too. I think he's a better passer also because look at Nash's assists with Dallas. D'Antoni's offense is the only reason he's leading the league right now and improved so much in his 30's. And even if Kidd's defense was overrated, he's at least much better than Nash there. Nash is horrible on D.

Kidds inability to shoot makes him less of an impact passer in the half court, and not by a little. The threat of a shot is needed to open up the passing lanes in the half court. This is probably kidds only weakness, but its a big one. Kidd is a CAREER 40% shooter, thats bad anyway you see it. The only point guard on that list who was worse was cousy at 37%. Its even worse when you consider that many opposing defenses do not contest his shot, they want him to shoot as opposed to pass. Nash is at 47.7% FG's career shooter, one of the best in that group. The shooting percentage disparity at the 3pt line is even worse. Kidds assists: Passing to Vinsanity(24ppg) and Jefferson as well as a real low post threat, Kristic, makes kidds job alot easier than nash's job. Just ask GM's who they think is the best point guard. I'll bet my paycheck its not even close.

 

[Nasser22]

If Nash wasn't in D'Antoni's offense he wouldn't even be a top 20 all-time PG and any GM wouldn't even have him in the top 3 point guards now. And you can't say Kidd's supporting cast was better than Marion, Amare and JJ last season. Amare gave Nash easy assists.

 

[elindholm]

It's never possible to separate players from their circumstances. Would Magic Johnson have been as effective without Abdul-Jabbar and Riley? I didn't see Cousy play, but it sounds like his success was due in large part to his presence on the Celtics dynasty. And so on.

 

[Nasser22]

But that is the reason he's good. How could he suddenly go from being a good point guard to the best in the league and future hall of famer at 31? It's because of the team he has around him. He never passed 8 assists per game before playing for us. I love Nash but I just don't think he is better than Kidd all-time..

 

[HooverDam]

But that is the reason he's good. How could he suddenly go from being a good point guard to the best in the league and future hall of famer at 31? It's because of the team he has around him. He never passed 8 assists per game before playing for us. I love Nash but I just don't think he is better than Kidd all-time..

Nash is infinitely more unpredictable and more varied on offense, which to me makes him better than Kidd. With Kidd you KNOW he has to drive to the basket to try to score, and then kick out. Nash can drive and kick, stop and pop a 3, do that amazing falling on his ass fadaway, any time he wants. Of course the D'Antoni system helps, but you can't view these players in a bubble, they all played w/ great players. Would Stockton have had so many assists w/ out Malone- who knows?

I say the top 5 is:

Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Isiah
Nash

 

[BC867]

I'm torn between Magic and The Big 'O' as #1 Point Guard.

Oscar had Kareem (then Lou Alcindor) at Center and won a championship. One year he averaged -- averaged -- a triple-double.

Magic had Kareem at Center and won multi-championships . . . and covered at Center -- at Center -- for Kareem in a playoff and scored 40 points. And turned his shot-put into a dependable 3-point shot.

Each was superior in his time.

Unfortunately, Ervin was superior with the women as well.

 

[Renz]

And how does Jerry "The Pose" West not make the TOp 10 list?

No freakin' way is Nash better than "Mr. Clutch"! Jerry West is one of the top 5 PG's in history. Period.

Jerry West's resume:

Selected by Minneapolis Lakers in first round (second overall pick) of 1960 NBA draft

All-NBA First Team 10 times (1962-67, 1970-73)

All-NBA Second Team twice (1968-69)

NBA All-Defensive First Team four times (1970-73)

NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1969)

Fourteen-time NBA All-Star (1961-74)

NBA All-Star MVP (1972)

NBA Finals MVP (1969)

NBA Championship (1972)

Member of 1972 Lakers that compiled a 69-13 record and 33-game winning streak

Led NBA in scoring in 1969-70 with 31.2 average

Led the NBA in assists in 1971-72 with 747 total assists for a 9.7 average

Holds single-season record for most free throws made-840 (1966)

Holds single-series playoff record for highest points-per-game average-46.3 against Baltimore (1965)

Holds record for highest point average in playoffs for one season-40.6 in 11 games (1965)

Los Angeles Lakers' all-time leading scorer with 25,192 points for a 27.0 average in 932 games

Retired as the NBA's leading playoff scorer with 4,457 points and a 29.1 average in 153 games

Averaged 40.6 points per game during 1965 playoffs

Compiled 970 assists during his career

Scored 20-plus points in 25 consecutive appearances in the NBA Finals

Retired as third leading scorer in NBA history with 25,192 points

Retired with fourth highest scoring average (27.0 ppg) in NBA history

In 14 years with Lakers, led the team in scoring seven times, averaging 30-plus points on four occasions, including 31.3 in 1956-66

Retired as Lakers all-time leader in scoring, assists, field goals made, free throws made and minutes played

Sank 60-foot shot as time expired to send game 3 of 1970 NBA Finals vs. Knicks into overtime

NBA 35th Anniversary Team (1980)

NBA 50th Anniversary Team (1996)

Known as "Mr. Clutch"

His image is silhouetted in the NBA logo

 

[Cheesebeef]

No freakin' way is Nash better than "Mr. Clutch"! Jerry West is one of the top 5 PG's in history. Period.

Jerry West's resume:

Selected by Minneapolis Lakers in first round (second overall pick) of 1960 NBA draft

All-NBA First Team 10 times (1962-67, 1970-73)

All-NBA Second Team twice (1968-69)

NBA All-Defensive First Team four times (1970-73)

NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1969)

Fourteen-time NBA All-Star (1961-74)

NBA All-Star MVP (1972)

NBA Finals MVP (1969)

NBA Championship (1972)

Member of 1972 Lakers that compiled a 69-13 record and 33-game winning streak

Led NBA in scoring in 1969-70 with 31.2 average

Led the NBA in assists in 1971-72 with 747 total assists for a 9.7 average

Holds single-season record for most free throws made-840 (1966)

Holds single-series playoff record for highest points-per-game average-46.3 against Baltimore (1965)

Holds record for highest point average in playoffs for one season-40.6 in 11 games (1965)

Los Angeles Lakers' all-time leading scorer with 25,192 points for a 27.0 average in 932 games

Retired as the NBA's leading playoff scorer with 4,457 points and a 29.1 average in 153 games

Averaged 40.6 points per game during 1965 playoffs

Compiled 970 assists during his career

Scored 20-plus points in 25 consecutive appearances in the NBA Finals

Retired as third leading scorer in NBA history with 25,192 points

Retired with fourth highest scoring average (27.0 ppg) in NBA history

In 14 years with Lakers, led the team in scoring seven times, averaging 30-plus points on four occasions, including 31.3 in 1956-66

Retired as Lakers all-time leader in scoring, assists, field goals made, free throws made and minutes played

Sank 60-foot shot as time expired to send game 3 of 1970 NBA Finals vs. Knicks into overtime

NBA 35th Anniversary Team (1980)

NBA 50th Anniversary Team (1996)

Known as "Mr. Clutch"

His image is silhouetted in the NBA logo

Notice almost ALL of those stat have to do with SCORING? Jerry West is a FLAT OUT legend, but he's not a traditional PG - period.

As far as Kidd/Nash/Payton - it's comical, but EVERYONE forgets how good Payton was, both on offense and defense - the guy puts both Nash and Kidd to shame the more I think about it. I mean never got out of the first round with (I don't count the Duncan-less Spurs series where we were already up 2-1 when he came back) and could never do anything until he went to the Weastern Conference and then once his teams played the west - surprise - THEY GOT CRUSHED - just like our Pathetic Suns teams when he was on them - and THEN, surprise, surprise - the East got better and the Nets became an after-thought... SHOCKER!

As far as Nash verus Kidd - Nash has proven to be a two-time MVP and his teams actually make hey in the West, whether it was Dallas or Us - period. The guy is more clutch, gets his teamates better involved and gets his team further in the playoffs - he gets us past the Clippers somehow and it will be his 3rd time in the Conference Finals in the West - pretty damn impressive - especially this season.

This era - 1) Payton 2) Nash 3) Wife-beater

 

[elindholm]

970 career assists for West? Is that a typo? You realize that a top PG gets that in just over one season, right?

West doesn't belong on a list of top point guards any more than he belongs on a list of top centers. What's next, a campaign to put Larry Bird on?

 

[Mainstreet]

The idea of listing the top ten point guards of all time is most difficult as discussed.

I believe assists should be the most heavily weighted criteria as turnovers do not always reflect accurately the style of play. However, assists is what a good PG does... assist players getting baskets.

IMO, a player like John Stockton, should be used as as the measuring stick. He had ten years of double digit assists consecutively (not to mention as many other good years as well).

I think a formula could be developed. There should be a minimum number of seasons/games played, use say the top seven seasons. The assist ratio would get perhaps (arbitrarily) 70% of the weight with some deduction for turnovers (not sure how much because of style of play). Then add scoring say 20% and steals !0%. I'm not sure how much rebounding and blocked shots should contribute as I'm not sure they reflect what a PG is all about.

I'm not saying my weighting is right or fair. The above is just where I would start. See the link for John Stockton's stats per game below (and I'm definitely not a Utah fan).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html

 

[AZ Sports Native]

If KJ could have stayed healthy, he'd be top 5 easily IMO.

No doubt.