ESPN Insider Article - Suns 3rd Worst Franchise for the Future?

[green machine]

Actually, I'm feeling better about the Suns because they didn't overpay for Amare and they haven't had any Marcus Banks-type signings that I can tell. No one's under contract for a really long time and the budget is spread out, meaning they can move pieces as they see fit.

I think what Hollinger sees as doom and gloom is really just the middle of transition.

Now, whether or not you think the FO is actually capable of transforming this team, that's another question entirely.

I don't think it's as easy as you think. A bad contract, even at 6 million a year (like with Frye and Childress) or Hedo's ridiculous total is not easy to move - to get rid if it the Suns will have to give up picks or other assets.

What long term deal would hinder the team?? Only long term deal is Hedo that is over 10 Mil, Fry's 6Mil a year is a going rate everyone else is below 5 a year. Nash and JRich are the only contracts hindering the Suns from bring in top salaries. The West got weaker this year so why would the Suns be a 50 win team? Just becouse the Suns didn't keep Amare then I think you might have over valued Amare's production. I think the combo of Fry, Warrick & Hedo will be able to make up the differance. I am not saying they will be in the West Conf Finals, that will be up to seatings just like last year. I still feel the Lakers are a better team every other West team is in the same boat now, there is no clear #2. The East will be much tougher with all the Bigs moving back East.

First part, see above statement. As for the West getting weaker, where do you get that idea from? Portland, Utah and OKC will probably pass the Suns this year. The Clippers and Kings will be much improved.

People act like the Suns had that third seed locked up for a while, when in reality they were like what, 2 games from being a lower seed? How many from being out of the playoffs altogether? Point is, if the Suns even take a small step back that could be enough for at least three or four teams to leap over them in the standings.

 

[green machine]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<THAT IS IT>>>>>>>>>

Ok this is BS I am going to put it out there. I do alot of business with the Suns and have for years. Yes Jerry ran this team different, but I can tell you the bottom line was ALWAYS number one. But it was also different times with a the CBA and different types of players. He cut corners like every businessman does. The fans may not see it but his employees and sponsers see it.

Sarver want to WIN and WILL put a great product out there for his partners and fans. But these are diffent times not many players like Rodney Roggers, D. Manning and others will play for the vet min. No longer can you have a player like Mark West making so little or KJ coming out of retirement. Kerr was an cornholio to his employees and to the organization he was brought in to turn this organization in the Spurs but he was not the right guy and changes had to be made.

For bench player that is overvauled by fans there are real issues why the team does not keep them around. For example when the Suns thought they had two big men to build with .... Ala Big Jake and Danny Shais (sp) Big Jake had plantar fasciitis, Danny had a very bad back. Niether played well after that year. There is ALOT that goes on that the fans just don't know about.

Know your history if your a fan then learn what your talking about instead of every year say this team sucks and is not going to do jack.

First statement, nothing I've heard even comes close to that. In fact, from what I've gathered it is exactly the other way around.

Second part, Big Jake maybe, but if you are trying to say the Suns planned on building around Danny Schayes you have got to be kidding me. By the time he got to Phoenix he was a washed up never-was. As for Big Jake, nothing wrong there because he fell so far why not take a chance and hope.

As for telling everyone to learn their history, just because some people disagree and aren't blinded by faith (or Robert Sarver, perhaps?) doesn't mean they don't know what's going on. Pretty ignorant statement to make, to be honest.

 

[Cheesebeef]

For example when the Suns thought they had two big men to build with .... Ala Big Jake and Danny Shais (sp) Big Jake had plantar fasciitis, Danny had a very bad back. Niether played well after that year. There is ALOT that goes on that the fans just don't know about.

Know your history if your a fan then learn what your talking about instead of every year say this team sucks and is not going to do jack.

all of the above is classic... you're scolding people to "know your history" and that there's "a lot fans just don't know about" right after saying the Suns thought they were going to build around DANNY SCHAYES?! Are you serious? a complete never-was-has-been at 35 years when we got him? No one in their right mind ever thought he was a big man to build with. I mean, He only played one season for us!

Take a look in the mirror before you start scolding others for being clueless.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

all of the above is classic... you're scolding people to "know your history" and that there's "a lot fans just don't know about" right after saying the Suns thought they were going to build around DANNY SCHAYES?! Are you serious? a complete never-was-has-been at 35 years when we got him? No one in their right mind ever thought he was a big man to build with. I mean, He only played one season for us!

Take a look in the mirror before you start scolding others for being clueless.

Yeah, I was going to respond, but didn't know where to start with the ridiculousness. From Kerr being an cornholio (funny how everyone in the FO was depressed when they heard he isn't coming back) to the Big Jake/Danny Shayes combo to build around, I seriously thought he was joking.

 

[Gaddabout]

I don't think it's as easy as you think. A bad contract, even at 6 million a year (like with Frye and Childress) or Hedo's ridiculous total is not easy to move - to get rid if it the Suns will have to give up picks or other assets.

We'll just have to wait and see, but I'm relatively confident Frye and Childress will produce about what they're getting paid in this system. Frye's a 6-10 shooter. There's always a market for that. Childress is a combo forward that can do a lot of things without demanding the ball. There's always a market for a player like that.

Hedo ... well, we're just counting on his resurrection on a team that plays his kind of game. That's a much bigger gamble. I'm less concerned about Hedo turning around his numbers than I am his impact on the win/loss record. He could have a decent season on a 45-win team, which about what I think the Suns will line up. Maybe he'll put up numbers comparable to his contract and maybe he won't.

If that's the worst contract the Suns have, I'm OK with it. Worst case scenario Turkoglu pouts and runs back to Europe, and Suns have a $10 million hole in cap space for two years -- a contract they'll be able to trade in the third year for someone wanting to retiring contract.

 

[green machine]

We'll just have to wait and see, but I'm relatively confident Frye and Childress will produce about what they're getting paid in this system. Frye's a 6-10 shooter. There's always a market for that. Childress is a combo forward that can do a lot of things without demanding the ball. There's always a market for a player like that.

Hedo ... well, we're just counting on his resurrection on a team that plays his kind of game. That's a much bigger gamble. I'm less concerned about Hedo turning around his numbers than I am his impact on the win/loss record. He could have a decent season on a 45-win team, which about what I think the Suns will line up. Maybe he'll put up numbers comparable to his contract and maybe he won't.

If that's the worst contract the Suns have, I'm OK with it. Worst case scenario Turkoglu pouts and runs back to Europe, and Suns have a $10 million hole in cap space for two years -- a contract they'll be able to trade in the third year for someone wanting to retiring contract.

Makes sense. I just hate that the Suns added a bunch of guys who all do about the same thing, kind of signing themselves into a corner where they'll have to move some of them in order to actually put a complete, balanced roster on the court.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Makes sense. I just hate that the Suns added a bunch of guys who all do about the same thing, kind of signing themselves into a corner where they'll have to move some of them in order to actually put a complete, balanced roster on the court.

Agreed, it's like a fantasy basketball team and just a strange combination of acquisitions. I suppose that happens when you make personnel moves sans a GM.

I think we'll get more wins than 45, but it's just a very weird team makeup. Lots of the same type of players, an embarrassment of riches on the bench, but nobody other than Lopez that can body anyone up or rebound.

Looking into my crystal ball, I'm especially disappointed that we appear to be giving up on Dud. Unfortunately, it'll probably come down to an either or situation with Childress, and that'll send Dud packing. A shame, Childress is decent, but I see Dud as being much more valuable.

 

[Superbone]

Kerr was an cornholio to his employees and to the organization he was brought in to turn this organization in the Spurs but he was not the right guy and changes had to be made.

Huh? This is the first time I've heard this from ANYONE.

 

[Errntknght]

ASUChris,

Looking into my crystal ball, I'm especially disappointed that we appear to be giving up on Dud. Unfortunately, it'll probably come down to an either or situation with Childress, and that'll send Dud packing. A shame, Childress is decent, but I see Dud as being much more valuable.

Hopefully, you are just speculating about Dudley, on the basis that we acquired Childress to play SF. I've been assuming Childress would switch to SG, filling the hole that Barbs left - and it seemed to me most others were making the same assumption. I'm tickled at the thought of having him, but not at the expense of Duds.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

ASUChris,

Hopefully, you are just speculating about Dudley, on the basis that we acquired Childress to play SF. I've been assuming Childress would switch to SG, filling the hole that Barbs left - and it seemed to me most others were making the same assumption. I'm tickled at the thought of having him, but not at the expense of Duds.

Just speculation at this point, but lots to indicate it wouldn't be a surprise. Childress is not much of a penetrator or scorer, and isn't known as a great distributor. Hard to envision him as a 2. Worse, he's a far inferior 3 point shooter to Dudley.

Simmons Tweet and Dud Reply, right after Childress was acquired:

"RT @sportsguy33: JMZ, you presenting an ESPY with the other 6 Suns small for.( Lmao, they might be forcing me out lol Will see what happens)"

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The West got weaker this year so why would the Suns be a 50 win team? Just becouse the Suns didn't keep Amare then I think you might have over valued Amare's production. I think the combo of Fry, Warrick & Hedo will be able to make up the differance.

just b/c those guys might fill in amare's numbers doesn't mean they'll still have the same impact. you have to understand that playing style of different players impacts the game differently. not having a player that routinely gets to the line will have a big negative impact on both us and our opponent, just as a simple example. trust me, we're definitely a weaker team this season. not as weak as i expected, but weaker.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<THAT IS IT>>>>>>>>>

Ok this is BS I am going to put it out there. I do alot of business with the Suns and have for years. Yes Jerry ran this team different, but I can tell you the bottom line was ALWAYS number one. But it was also different times with a the CBA and different types of players. He cut corners like every businessman does. The fans may not see it but his employees and sponsers see it.

Sarver want to WIN and WILL put a great product out there for his partners and fans. But these are diffent times not many players like Rodney Roggers, D. Manning and others will play for the vet min. No longer can you have a player like Mark West making so little or KJ coming out of retirement. Kerr was an cornholio to his employees and to the organization he was brought in to turn this organization in the Spurs but he was not the right guy and changes had to be made.

For bench player that is overvauled by fans there are real issues why the team does not keep them around. For example when the Suns thought they had two big men to build with .... Ala Big Jake and Danny Shais (sp) Big Jake had plantar fasciitis, Danny had a very bad back. Niether played well after that year. There is ALOT that goes on that the fans just don't know about.

Know your history if your a fan then learn what your talking about instead of every year say this team sucks and is not going to do jack.

i don't even understand this entire rant

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

One quality big away. . .

that's a big "away"

 

[BC867]

...it's just a very weird team makeup. Lots of the same type of players, an embarrassment of riches on the bench, but nobody other than Lopez that can body anyone up or rebound

That's pretty much the way the Suns have played their 4+ decades.

Put the best five players on the court regardless of position, rather than the best player at each position.

And, for most of the time, just one true big for most of the game.

 

[cly2tw]

Technically Amare would have gotten what he's getting in NY had he only stayed relatively healthy throughout the contract. But obviously even he doesn't believe that's likely. It's been speculated that Amare will need another major knee surgery at some point in the future.

Technically, we did not offer Amare a max. Nobody woud expect to die on the ensuing trip just because he purchase an insurance for the trip. Max is called max because it has the insurance feature to it.

Just speculation at this point, but lots to indicate it wouldn't be a surprise. Childress is not much of a penetrator or scorer, and isn't known as a great distributor. Hard to envision him as a 2. Worse, he's a far inferior 3 point shooter to Dudley.

Simmons Tweet and Dud Reply, right after Childress was acquired:

"RT @sportsguy33: JMZ, you presenting an ESPY with the other 6 Suns small for.( Lmao, they might be forcing me out lol Will see what happens)"

Dudley is supposedly a great friend to Amare. He might be really sour on Amare leaving. Boozer got 80 mil and would likely play less games than Amare over the same contract length, given the former's injury history. The difference of 20 mil is the revenue for the owner from just two rounds of playoffs. Amare would have been good for these two more playoff rounds over the next 3 years, compared to the alternatives without him.

just b/c those guys might fill in amare's numbers doesn't mean they'll still have the same impact. you have to understand that playing style of different players impacts the game differently. not having a player that routinely gets to the line will have a big negative impact on both us and our opponent, just as a simple example. trust me, we're definitely a weaker team this season. not as weak as i expected, but weaker.

oops, I have nothing to add but agree.

 

[Manu4five]

Ya Suns suck at drafting please!!! Lopez is a starting C with very good potential. Dragic is a great pick up for 2nd round which the Spurs didn't want.... Let's not forget Barbosa who was drafted with the Spurs pick as well. It is hard to build through the draft when you are one of the top teams in the league every year. Tell me how the Lakers, Cavs (Minus Lebron), Celtics and other top teams have done better in the draft.

Just a reminder: Spurs also drafted these players: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Hill, Blair, Splitter (not proven in the nba but expected to contribute), James Anderson (rookie). All of them are still on the team (in fact they ARE the team. Except for Duncan the rest were late first rounders or second rounders.

"Small market teams" cannot compete with the Lakers or Celtics when it comes to attracting premium FAs.

 

[SunsTzu]

"Small market teams" cannot compete with the Lakers or Celtics when it comes to attracting premium FAs.

Celtics weren't a FA magnet until they made the moves to get KG and Allen. Bulls are a large market, yet ever since Jordan left the premier FAs have avoided them like the plague.

Suns have had a good track record of getting FAs despite not being a huge market.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Celtics weren't a FA magnet until they made the moves to get KG and Allen. Bulls are a large market, yet ever since Jordan left the premier FAs have avoided them like the plague.

Suns have had a good track record of getting FAs despite not being a huge market.

true, but the suns were a good target for FA's first due to colengelo's rep and the fact that they were a winner, and then because they became a contender.

the bulls failed to attract FAs due to the rep of their ownership.

if our squad starts to falter in the W column, i don't think sarver's got the same cache that jerry had, and we'll become a wasteland as far as FAs are concerned.

 

[SunsTzu]

if our squad starts to falter in the W column, i don't think sarver's got the same cache that jerry had, and we'll become a wasteland as far as FAs are concerned.

I agree. I was just pointing out that market size really isn't all that important when attracting FA. I'd say stable ownership/FO is probably the biggest factor followed closely by team success.

I don't think the Spurs would have had any trouble landing a major FA during TD's prime but since they drafted so well they had to retain their players and never had the money available whenever there were big time FA. They still got the same type of ring chasing vets that the Lakers and Celtics got.

 

[Yuma]

true, but the suns were a good target for FA's first due to colengelo's rep and the fact that they were a winner, and then because they became a contender.

the bulls failed to attract FAs due to the rep of their ownership.

if our squad starts to falter in the W column, i don't think sarver's got the same cache that jerry had, and we'll become a wasteland as far as FAs are concerned.

I worry about that, too. It seems the perception of the Suns organization is it's not worth coming to Phoenix anymore. I think Jalen Rose started it with his anti-Phoenix stuff, and then when we can't make it work with guys like Shaq and say negative things about Shaq as he's leaving, that just doesn't make players feel like they want to come here. The only reason we are getting guys now, is Steve Nash and the perception that we still run the ball on offense. We are actually not scoring that many fast break points anymore. I think we are OK with Nash right now, but the franchise better really pump up Dragic's rep to get guys to want to come here when Nash retires/get's traded. Really, Sarver isn't seen as a player friendly guy like Cuban, and that's going to turn off players. The organization needs to take a step back and look at the rep the Collangelo team had and try and figure out how to get that back.

 

[Chaplin]

Phoenix is still a destination for players, Grant Hill (and Channing Frye) has proved that in recent times.

The problem really has nothing to do with the Suns, it has to do with the greed of the NBA, its teams and the players. Unfortunately, the "small market" theories out there hold a lot of credence now more than ever.

 

[SunsTzu]

Hill and Frye were not premier FA. Every team brings in some FA, it's the ability to attract top FA I was referring to.

And for all the talk about big market teams it was the Heat that had the most successful FA period in NBA history while going up against LA, Chicago, NY/NJ and DC(though for some reason the Wizards didn't seem interested in making a FA splash). Not to mention Miami is a pretty poor basketball city, especially compared to those other cities.

 

[Chaplin]

Hill and Frye were not premier FA. Every team brings in some FA, it's the ability to attract top FA I was referring to.

And for all the talk about big market teams it was the Heat that had the most successful FA period in NBA history while going up against LA, Chicago, NY/NJ and DC(though for some reason the Wizards didn't seem interested in making a FA splash). Not to mention Miami is a pretty poor basketball city, especially compared to those other cities.

No team other than Miami could have signed those three guys.

 

[SunsTzu]

No team other than Miami could have signed those three guys.

Some could have signed 2 of them and had some young talent already in place.

 

[Chaplin]

Some could have signed 2 of them and had some young talent already in place.

Again, nobody could sign all 3 of them.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that Miami as an example isn't really a strong argument.