ESPN Insider suggests....fasten your seat belts

[slinslin]

Should the Thunder go after free agent Steve Nash?
Now this would be special, wouldn't it? Can you imagine the league-wide terror of trying to stop the pairing of Nash and the league's top scorer in the halfcourt? Or how about Nash, Durant and Westbrook in the open court? Since the Thunder are capped out, that's just a pipedream, right?

It isn't and here's why: the Thunder could flip Harden (an Arizona State product, remember) to Phoenix in a sign-and-trade deal for Nash and Marcin Gortat. The Thunder have the contracts to make the money work (Kendrick Perkins and Daequan could be thrown in) and the Suns could get their young stud of the future without letting Nash go for nothing.

Not sure how this would work out considering that Nash and Gortat would make a lot more money than Harden.

Guess it would have to be Harden, Cook and Perkins for Nash and Gortat or something like that..

 

[Covert Rain]

Not sure how this would work out considering that Nash and Gortat would make a lot more money than Harden.

Guess it would have to be Harden, Cook and Perkins for Nash and Gortat or something like that..

Depends on Nash's salary demands right? So that would dictate how much the Thunder would have to send back.

Perkins = 7.1 Million
Harden = 4.6 Million

Gortat = 6.8 Million
Nash = 11.6 Million.

Why would we give up Gortat in that transaction? Seems to me you could make it work Nash for just Harden unless I am missing something.

Perkins is strong but he doesn't score and more importantly is a horrible rebounder. The Suns can't afford to shed rebounding. They simply can't. Between Lopez and him you might get 10 a game.

Nash for Harden I would take.

 

[chickenhead]

Why would we give up Gortat in that transaction? Seems to me you could make it work Nash for just Harden unless I am missing something.

This. The way the above works out is almost that Nash is the key to make a Gortat-for-Harden trade work. If I'm the Suns, I want to end up with Harden, Gortat, and Dudley--and everyone else is moveable.

Won't Nash be looking for at least two years at close to $10m per? Being a free agent gives him leverage, and being the key to this trade even more. In that scenario, adding Gortat means OKC needs to send almost $34m back over two years (unless I'm wrong), and Harden is less than half of that.

 

[BC867]

Between Lopez and him you might get 10 a game.

Good call. Last season, Perkins and Robin the Boy Wonder totaled 9.9 boards per game. Perkins 6.6 was the worst in his past five seasons.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Thunder need center help as well and may want the trade to be sweetened so we give them Nash and Lopez for Harden and what we can get coming back.

 

[sunsfan88]

OKC would not trade Harden straight up for a 500 year old Nash.

That's why you include Gortat. To make the trade fair. Gortat gives them an upgrade at center over Perkins.

I still doubt OKC would do it though, I think they can get far better offers for Harden.

 

[Mainstreet]

OKC would not trade Harden straight up for a 500 year old Nash.

That's why you include Gortat. To make the trade fair. Gortat gives them an upgrade at center over Perkins.

I still doubt OKC would do it though, I think they can get far better offers for Harden.

Nash and Lopez should be enough. Including Gortat is like giving them a package of everything they ever wanted.

 

[chickenhead]

I think they can get far better offers for Harden.

Definitely true. OKC is not a veteran team that needs Nash because their window closes in 2 years.

 

[Mainstreet]

How about Nash and #13 as the starting point in a trade for Harden and the Suns have their star player. It undoubtedly would need to be tweaked.

 

[slinslin]

Depends on Nash's salary demands right? So that would dictate how much the Thunder would have to send back.

Perkins = 7.1 Million
Harden = 4.6 Million

Gortat = 6.8 Million
Nash = 11.6 Million.

Why would we give up Gortat in that transaction? Seems to me you could make it work Nash for just Harden unless I am missing something.

Perkins is strong but he doesn't score and more importantly is a horrible rebounder. The Suns can't afford to shed rebounding. They simply can't. Between Lopez and him you might get 10 a game.

Nash for Harden I would take.

Why the .... would OKC think about Nash for Harden straight up.

Nash and Gortat for Harden, Perkins and their draft pick is fair.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I personally would happily trade Gortat and Nash for Harden.

 

[sunsfan88]

Nash and Lopez should be enough. Including Gortat is like giving them a package of everything they ever wanted.

Should be enough for them to spit in Babby's face? Probably

Lopez sucks. Why the hell would they want him? Perkins, Collison, me, Slinslin, you, chickenhead, DarrenG, Mainstreet are all better than Lopez.

 

[Griffin]

One reason that OKC may be willing to move Harden for less is if they don't think they will be able to afford to re-sign both Harden and Ibaka two years from now. They already have Durant and Westbrook on the books for $36M combined in 14/15. Will they be able to afford another $10M+ contract then? Ibaka alone might command that kind of money. So Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka may not be feasible in the long run, especially if Perkins is still on the payroll.

But signing Nash for two years/$20M while moving Harden and Perkins will give them a great shot at a title the next two years while giving them some cap flexibility two years from now.

 

[Gaddabout]

Make it so, No. 1.

Engage.

 

[Joe Mama]

Oh please. I wish, and I'm with Chris. I would move whomever, and so with the Phoenix Suns. Problem is Oklahoma City is not this stupid. I know Harden had a rough finals, but I think a deal like this would start with Steve Nash, Gortat, and the #13.

Joe

 

[CardsFan88]

Nash > Harden. Long term yes/no/maybe. But right now (which is why a trade would want to be made on OKC's end) Nash is far better than Harden. Harden may be a good player for a long time, but OKC is learning you need some GREAT players even for a short time to get you over. They'd have two great players whereas now they only have one. Maybe Harden turns into great. Maybe not. Nash is right now. A couple of years or so from now, he's done, but you're giving up length of service, for better service. A case of good current wine for a bottle of a great vintage.

You don't throw in a very good center to sweeten the pot for a guy we might be able to have as free agent next season and will be hard to extend either him or Ibaka. Nash straight up for Harden and possibly filler is a great deal for OKC if they want to get over the top and win. If they want Lopez, who does have value, it is fine by me. Gortat obviously isn't elite, but he's among the best of the next level. At center that can be tough to find as the Suns have shown all these years. Gortat's value is very high.

They have Durant and Westbrook under contract. They have Ibaka and Harden coming up after next season. They aren't forced into a deal now, but trading one of the two will allow them to keep the other for sure and have it done now and in a way of their choosing. I'm hard pressed to see how they can afford all four long term. Given their ages, and the way the cap works, it's hard to have four guys fairly similarly aged, all having escalating contracts at the same time and then paying them all to their respective peak during the same years. Nash coming off the books in a couple of seasons gives them that cushion.

Besides Nash may or may not go. I personally think he's probably gone one way or another. But no one knows. Just like no one knows if Harden is gone after next season. If OKC wants him, they have to trade for him. OKC CANNOT get Nash ANY OTHER WAY. If Harden were to make it to free agency, and we want him, the cap will not be an issue. This difference is HUGE. Though it may not effect specifically Harden, it means we don't need to give anything up to improve, whereas OKC MUST. Whether or not it's Nash it doesn't really matter. If OKC wants an elite player, they HAVE to TRADE.

It's not a bad place to be, I always loved our ability to be in the hunt year after year, but OKC right now are in the position to sacrifice one of their young players to get over the hump, it makes sense to do so. They need a deal more than we need to make one by far. Personally I'd rather keep Durant and Harden over Westbrook or Ibaka. But since they re-signed Westbrook, it's down to Ibaka or Harden being gone. Sure they could trade Westbrook, but when he is the one that is signed, and Harden is the 6th man, the priorities may already be shown in that regard. So imo it's down to Ibaka or Harden. Given again Harden is a 6th man and Ibaka is a strong biggish man while not inconceivable he's lower than Harden, everything shows it may just be Harden who is overall more talented but is like a luxury akin to Montana/Young. One of them can be parted with more easily.

Gortat is the best center we've had well, since I started following them as a kid in the 80's, and some might say best Suns center ever, or at the least top 3. For as long as I've watched, it isn't even close. No one can sniff his jockstrap. Mark West would be the closest and he wasn't a scorer. Granted in other cities he'd be lower than that, but you just don't throw in these sorts of guys as filler or sweetener especially as the onus isn't on you.

This is an OKC deal, not a Suns deal. The Suns don't have to add squat if they don't want to, it's OKC who is chasing a title. The onus is on THEM to sweeten the deal if anyone needs to at all. Given again that one of the two after next year for OKC is probably gone, they can get the PG they need to win a title and then extend Ibaka.

Nash for Harden and whatever capwise is needed to make the deal work seems like a good amicable trade for both sides.

The Suns as they've said, might just sit on cap space, and being under, without Nash we'd be even more under. We're not limited by the cap to make moves. There is no pressure on us, it makes almost sense to get rid of Nash given where we are headed. It's OKC who is risking losing Harden or Ibaka for nothing while they have something to lose (being a great team who is close to winning it all).

We're in the driver's seat for every reason, not OKC in such a deal. The fans at this point can live with Nash's departure. I'm sure we don't want it, but if I may take the liberty, most of us understand that Nash isn't going to get it here and deserves a shot at a title. Suns FO has flexibility in this regard. OKC's front office can't let someone get away for free. Though the pressure isn't on them this year, it will by this time next year. They are in prime position to be a contender for years given the ages of their stars, and if they want to keep it going they're going to need to part with one of their stars to either get older and better or younger and extend the time frame of competitiveness. They don't have to get Nash, but it would be wise for them to move one of the three besides Durant and do so on their own terms.

The Suns hold all the cards. They have the better player, no fan expectations (in muliple ways...regarding the state of the club, plus giving Nash a chance, plus more cap space).

Harden is lesser than Nash, he just gives you a darn good player for a lot longer timeframe. But hey that's the Doyle Alexander title run for John Smoltz deal. Maybe the Braves should have thrown in Dale Murphy. No. Tigers got to the World Series, and Smoltz gave the Braves a good long run as both a starter and closer.

OKC can kick rocks if they want a top level center and a hall of fame point guard for a good young point that just disappeared in the finals. If the Suns want to throw in some lower level stuff like Lopez, Warrick, whatever fine. If the Thunder do, fine. The only guys I see untouchable for the Suns like others are Gortat and Dudley. These are guys you can build around, and building (not retooling) is what we're doing. Gortat, Dudley, and Harden give you something to start building around. If we hit on a draft pick and use our fa money wisely (despite history) we have a shot at being a low seeded playoff team again by 13-14 imo.

We're more than a player away from competing for a title, and there is no way around that. We need to reload just to get back to the playoffs. You don't get better by giving away a piece you can use for the next five years in Gortat. Maybe Gortat is on the downside by the time we get better, but you don't just throw him in when the onus isn't on you to make the trade. The pressure is solely on OKC to get over the top. We're rebuilding whether or not Nash stays, leaves, or is traded and fans can live with whatever happens with Nash. Consolidation of talent costs. For OKC to get Nash it costs Harden and they don't get Gortat, Dudley, or a 1st round pick.

Gortat is the type of center we've wasted tons of draft picks to get. Some taken. MANY traded away to pick up an overrated stiff or maybe a decent player. Gortat is very athletic for his size and can play defense. Sure some are stronger. Some are better at defense and rebounding overall. Gortat isn't elite. He's dang close to it. You don't see many centers catch an alley oop behind their head and lay it in while in the air. Did Luc Longley ever do that? If someone wants to trade him and he's the centerpiece of a deal, to get some other stud that's one thing. But that's Nash in this one.

Harden isn't worth the NBA's assist leaders who makes every player better around him AND a dang good hard to find Center. OKC needs it more than we need to give it makes it even worse. Though recent history has shown our amateur hour organization would be foolish enough to make such a one sided trade on behalf of other teams. Our front office has start making net positive moves. Not net negative which is exactly what this trade would be. Giving up Nash plus a medium-long term piece merely for a different long term piece. I wouldn't be pissed, because I've long ago realized those directing the Suns are chumps and so this trade would just be business as usual. This would actually be one of their better moves because we actually got something back in return rather than $$$$$arver$$$$$.

 

[Superbone]

Make it so, No. 1.

Engage.

<Nerd glasses on> No. 2.

 

[Joe Mama]

I love Steve Nash, but you guys are overvaluing him, especially since he is a UFA. Gortat is a good pick and roll center. I like him and would want to keep, but he isn't going to look nearly as good without Steve Nash.

I really think Chad Ford pulled this one out of his ass. I think it would take a lot to pry James Harden from OKC. I don't think we have the assets.

Joe

 

[Russ Smith]

OKC would not trade Harden straight up for a 500 year old Nash.

That's why you include Gortat. To make the trade fair. Gortat gives them an upgrade at center over Perkins.

I still doubt OKC would do it though, I think they can get far better offers for Harden.

THey might. I fully expect OKC to go after someone who can play the 1 so they can use Westbrook more at the 2. Whether it's an older guy like Nash or a younger guy like Darren Collison(seems like George Hill may be replacing him) who knows.

I think if they didn't already know it they saw it in the Finals, Westbrook is a star, and he's not a true PG, so getting someone else who can run the PG and let Westbrook slide over to the 2 makes a lot of sense. He can still play PG when that guy is out. Harden is good but he came up very short in the Finals.

 

[Phrazbit]

THey might. I fully expect OKC to go after someone who can play the 1 so they can use Westbrook more at the 2. Whether it's an older guy like Nash or a younger guy like Darren Collison(seems like George Hill may be replacing him) who knows.

I think if they didn't already know it they saw it in the Finals, Westbrook is a star, and he's not a true PG, so getting someone else who can run the PG and let Westbrook slide over to the 2 makes a lot of sense. He can still play PG when that guy is out. Harden is good but he came up very short in the Finals.

OKC is not building for a 2 year run though. If they move Harden you can bet it will be for pieces that help them in the long term. Their GM, Sam Presti, is one of the smartest and most forward thinking in the biz, he is not going to ship off a young highly valuable asset for a 38 year old free agent in a straight up trade.

And in the long term they're better suited having Westbrook continue to evolve at the point than doing a short term swap to a position that he is not suited for. While his first instinct is to attack and to score, he does not play off the ball. The only thing moving him to shooting guard would do is create a bad defensive situation for the Thunder and deprive Westbrook of attempts on offense.

 

[Gaddabout]

<Nerd glasses on> No. 2.

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[sunsfan88]

I asked a few OKC fans for their opinions on this deal and they all thought we're getting robbed and said they would do it in a heartbeat.

Of course these are just fans not the FO but I thought it was interesting....

Carry on.

 

[CardsFan88]

OKC is not building for a 2 year run though. If they move Harden you can bet it will be for pieces that help them in the long term. Their GM, Sam Presti, is one of the smartest and most forward thinking in the biz, he is not going to ship off a young highly valuable asset for a 38 year old free agent in a straight up trade.

And in the long term they're better suited having Westbrook continue to evolve at the point than doing a short term swap to a position that he is not suited for. While his first instinct is to attack and to score, he does not play off the ball. The only thing moving him to shooting guard would do is create a bad defensive situation for the Thunder and deprive Westbrook of attempts on offense.

Great post. They have the logjam contract/age wise. Their two options are trading for a vet to push them over like Nash or as I pointed to earlier, trading him for younger assets to keep the ball rolling.

With your input it now appears that the GM is more of the type of GM that likes getting younger assets to keep the ball rolling. That doesn't bar them from making a deal for Nash, but it should heavily discount such an idea.

Maybe Harden or someone else like Ibaka, even Westbrook is a trade deadline deal. Given the logjam and length of rookie contracts I would guess it would either be a deal for a guy better than Ibaka, or a guy from this year's rookie class mid-season like Joe Johnson style. Of course future draft picks are a possibility, but I don't see Harden being traded for draft picks unless they were an obvious secondary part of the deal.

 

[Covert Rain]

Why the .... would OKC think about Nash for Harden straight up.

Nash and Gortat for Harden, Perkins and their draft pick is fair.

I think your asking the wrong question.

Why the .... would the Suns do it?

Positives:
Suns get good young piece in Harden

Negatives:
Suns MUCH worse offensively
Suns MUCH worse rebounding
Suns get a worthless draft pick.

Thunder would be getting two of the best players at their positions for Harden, a guy who can't rebound and draft pick that won't be worth anything as long as the Thunder are good.

Seems lopsided to me. This is the type of trade that will ensure this franchise never gets out of the pit it's in.

Give them anybody else (Frye, Lopez). I would give up Nash and Dudley way before Gortat and I love Dudley. Nash + Gorat? Thunder can take a hike.

 

[Joe Mama]

I asked a few OKC fans for their opinions on this deal and they all thought we're getting robbed and said they would do it in a heartbeat.

Of course these are just fans not the FO but I thought it was interesting....

Carry on.

good thing for them Sam Presti is running their team.