ESPN Insider suggests....fasten your seat belts

[Chaplin]

I'm not saying I'd do this proposed trade, but what makes people think that OKC is still building for the future? They came really close last year and made the Finals this year--they're looking to win NOW. A 3 year timeframe with Steve Nash only helps them. They are done rebuilding, they don't need twelve rookies anymore.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Depends on Nash's salary demands right? So that would dictate how much the Thunder would have to send back.

Perkins = 7.1 Million
Harden = 4.6 Million

Gortat = 6.8 Million
Nash = 11.6 Million.

Why would we give up Gortat in that transaction? Seems to me you could make it work Nash for just Harden unless I am missing something.

Perkins is strong but he doesn't score and more importantly is a horrible rebounder. The Suns can't afford to shed rebounding. They simply can't. Between Lopez and him you might get 10 a game.

Nash for Harden I would take.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would make that deal, much less OKC. But I could see Perkins/Harden for Nash/Gortat.

that would be two solid building blocks for the future. i'd make that deal in a heartbeat. A win-win trade... thus it probably won't happen.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not saying I'd do this proposed trade, but what makes people think that OKC is still building for the future? They came really close last year and made the Finals this year--they're looking to win NOW. A 3 year timeframe with Steve Nash only helps them. They are done rebuilding, they don't need twelve rookies anymore.

There is a difference between rebuilding and sustaining a long term viable contender. They dont NEED Nash to contend, they already proved that. Pulling the trigger on big swap to bring in an old veteran player is how you can turn a potential decade long run of contention into a 2 season run.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm not saying I'd do this proposed trade, but what makes people think that OKC is still building for the future? They came really close last year and made the Finals this year--they're looking to win NOW. A 3 year timeframe with Steve Nash only helps them. They are done rebuilding, they don't need twelve rookies anymore.

agreed.

I'd do this trade in a HEARTBEAT. Gortat is a nice player but i think people really overrate his value and lets face it, as much as we all love nash, he's not only at the tail-end of his career but he's ALSO a FA.

we get one of the best young players in the game and solid defensive C to start rebuilding around? you throw them on next year's team, we're probably terrible, but we probably got a super high lotto pick and will have oodles of cash to spend in a good FA class AND we will already have a couple good YOUNG pieces that will be attractive to FAs.

 

[sunsfan88]

I think your asking the wrong question.

Why the .... would the Suns do it?

Positives:
Suns get good young piece in Harden

Negatives:
Suns MUCH worse offensively
Suns MUCH worse rebounding
Suns get a worthless draft pick.

Orlando would be getting two of the best players at their positions for Harden, a guy who can't rebound and draft pick that won't be worth anything as long as the Thunder are good.

Seems lopsided to me. This is the type of trade that will ensure this franchise never gets out of the pit it's in.

Give them anybody else (Frye, Lopez). I would give up Nash and Dudley way before Gortat and I love Dudley. Nash + Gorat? Thunder can take a hike.

Where does Orlando come in from?

And why the hell does it matter that Harden can't rebound? You do realize he's a SG not a PF right?

He's a playmaker and a scorer. He has elite offensive talent and athleticism. He's only 22...its crazy to think how good he'll be once he hits his full potential.

Most NBA analysts agree he'll be a superstar once he leaves OKC and goes becomes "the man" somewhere else. It would be more enticing for him if that's at home in Phoenix.

Gortat will not be effective for us by the time we are serious contenders again. Getting Harden is the building block we need to start over. They want Nash and Gortat, fine. They want us to take Perkins? Fine. he can teach our next young bigs. We turn things around and become a defensive team now.

Harden allows us to turn the corner again right away instead of being lost as we are now. There's a real chance Harden can become a superstar.

Harden is a guy to build around. Suns should give up the entire roster to get a guy like that if they could.

 

[Cheesebeef]

There is a difference between rebuilding and sustaining a long term viable contender. They dont NEED Nash to contend, they already proved that. Pulling the trigger on big swap to bring in an old veteran player is how you can turn a potential decade long run of contention into a 2 season run.

this has merit as well.

i think a deal like this for OKC would be a panic move. They got to the Finals in year 3 of a total rebuild. That team doesn't really need big changes. They need more experience. They got it this year. Me thinks they eventually amnesty Perkins and are able to fit ibaka and harden in the mix as their big four players moving forward.

 

[devilalum]

There is a HUGE storm brewing on the horizon for OKC. Harden and Ibaka are both max players on the open market. There is no way they can afford to have 4 max players in Oklahoma.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/oklahoma_city.htm

 

[Chaplin]

There is a HUGE storm brewing on the horizon for OKC. Harden and Ibaka are both max players on the open market. There is no way they can afford to have 4 max players in Oklahoma.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/oklahoma_city.htm

Exactly, that's why bringing aboard a guy like Nash is a good move for them. There's a good possibility that they'll have money problems down the road, so why not try to get the ring sooner rather than later? Especially in the modern game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Exactly, that's why bringing aboard a guy like Nash is a good move for them. There's a good possibility that they'll have money problems down the road, so why not try to get the ring sooner rather than later? Especially in the modern game.

but when you've just gotten as close as the Thunder have, why go older right now with no guarantee that trade will work. They already know they have the goods to get to The Finals and Harden/ibaka won't be up for their big contracts for another two years if the Thunder strung it out. would you rather go back to war with a completely young team that just got a hell of a lot experience young teams need to win a title or really throw a potential monkey wrench into your mix for two years which is the same amount of time they'll have ibaka and Harden?

to be honest, i don't think the trade makes much sense for OKC the more i think about it, but i'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Gaddabout]

At this point, I just hope they do SOMETHING. Two things I would refuse:

- Dead-weight contracts that don't expire within a reasonable amount of time.
- One-trick ponies who need to dominate the ball to contribute.

Everything else is fair game, IMO. Just don't re-sign Nash and call it a summer.

 

[Chaplin]

but when you've just gotten as close as the Thunder have, why go older right now with no guarantee that trade will work. They already know they have the goods to get to The Finals and Harden/ibaka won't be up for their big contracts for another two years if the Thunder strung it out. would you rather go back to war with a completely young team that just got a hell of a lot experience young teams need to win a title or really throw a potential monkey wrench into your mix for two years which is the same amount of time they'll have ibaka and Harden?

to be honest, i don't think the trade makes much sense for OKC the more i think about it, but i'd do it in a heartbeat.

Except you can't conduct business in the NBA thinking that next year no teams will make enough moves to challenge. Steve Nash has made an awful team look pretty good at times this year--what he brings to the table would absolutely have helped against the Heat. You saw the problems of having nothing but youth on a team.

And with the Heat being a dynasty, you need to make changes to keep up with them. Right now, the Heat are still getting better.

But there are two sides to every coin, and I think both the pro people and con people for that trade have a lot of solid points.

 

[Russ Smith]

OKC is not building for a 2 year run though. If they move Harden you can bet it will be for pieces that help them in the long term. Their GM, Sam Presti, is one of the smartest and most forward thinking in the biz, he is not going to ship off a young highly valuable asset for a 38 year old free agent in a straight up trade.

And in the long term they're better suited having Westbrook continue to evolve at the point than doing a short term swap to a position that he is not suited for. While his first instinct is to attack and to score, he does not play off the ball. The only thing moving him to shooting guard would do is create a bad defensive situation for the Thunder and deprive Westbrook of attempts on offense.

Agree with the first point, not necessarily the 2nd. Jordan was a 2, but he operated more with the ball than without. That's why the Bulls always had a PG who was a good shooter, Kerr, Paxson etc, to play off him. If you pair Westbrook with a PG who can make open shots(Collison for example) you get a nice balance. Westbrook coming out of UCLA was thought to be a tweener by many "experts" too small to play the 2, not really a 1. It's become perfectly clear he's PLENTY big enough to play the 2 because he's such a great athlete.

Please note, not saying Westbrook is Jordan, nobody is, just he's that type of player in that he's not a PG but he's most effective with the ball in his hands.

He's not a catch and shoot guy absolutely so in that sense I agree, but if you pair him with another guard who can do a bit of both create for others and shoot, you get a good mix. They could do that with Harden too he's got a lot of PG in him, but Harden is going to cost a lot more.

I do buy your point about Nash being a short term fix, I'm just saying depending on what's available out there it wouldn't be a disaster to do that. Help you win a title or two with Nash and then let the younger core guys keep it going when nash is done.

But I have no idea what other options are out there for them.

 

[Russ Smith]

There is a difference between rebuilding and sustaining a long term viable contender. They dont NEED Nash to contend, they already proved that. Pulling the trigger on big swap to bring in an old veteran player is how you can turn a potential decade long run of contention into a 2 season run.

I agree with that but it makes one big assumption, that Harden is going to be worth the money they have to pay him to keep him. I can see why they would think that with Ibaka he's very young and very raw and has made huge strides every year. It's easy to see he's not at his ceiling yet.

harden is a terrific player but he's also a pretty polished player, not a spectacular athlete, not raw etc. He plays an "old mans' game if you will. He'll get better but he's one of those guys who will probably get more than he's really worth in his next contract and he could be one of those guys who appears better than he really is because he's never looking at the other teams best defender, usually at best he's seeing their 3rd best defender.

I do agree though that at Nash' age it's a risk.

 

[Covert Rain]

Where does Orlando come in from?

And why the hell does it matter that Harden can't rebound? You do realize he's a SG not a PF right?

Sorry meant Thunder and who said anything about Harden's rebounding? I was referring to swapping out Gortat for Perkins. Hell yes it matters. Between Perkins and Lopez you will get 9 or 10 rebounds per night between the two of them on a good night. Both of those guys on a bad night is scary. It matters.

He's a playmaker and a scorer. He has elite offensive talent and athleticism. He's only 22...its crazy to think how good he'll be once he hits his full potential.

He may or may not get alot better. However, I can't think of a too many teams that built around tweener and no front court. As it is we have an undersized future PF, and if we pulled off this trade would have one of the worst rebounding/scoring center combos in the NBA.

I am all for getting Harden. Just not for Nash and Gortat.

Most NBA analysts agree he'll be a superstar once he leaves OKC and goes becomes "the man" somewhere else. It would be more enticing for him if that's at home in Phoenix.

Where are these analysts? Superstar? That is LeBron level talk. I love Harden but he is no LeBron and never will be IMO.

Gortat will not be effective for us by the time we are serious contenders again. Getting Harden is the building block we need to start over. They want Nash and Gortat, fine. They want us to take Perkins? Fine. he can teach our next young bigs. We turn things around and become a defensive team now.

You might be right about that in terms of Gortat but it all depends on if this team continues to make lackluster moves. However, Harden again is not LeBron. This is not the type of player IMO that is going to be the face of your franchise. He is a GREAT piece no doubt.

I have said all along I don't mind giving up Gortat if your getting a legit big man in return or putting yourself in a position to get a high enough draft pick to get a younger legit big man. I just don't think you trade a legit big man for a PG or Guard-tweener. It's too hard to get legit big men in the NBA. Nobody knows this better than the Suns.

 

[Gaddabout]

Except you can't conduct business in the NBA thinking that next year no teams will make enough moves to challenge. Steve Nash has made an awful team look pretty good at times this year--what he brings to the table would absolutely have helped against the Heat. You saw the problems of having nothing but youth on a team.

And with the Heat being a dynasty, you need to make changes to keep up with them. Right now, the Heat are still getting better.

But there are two sides to every coin, and I think both the pro people and con people for that trade have a lot of solid points.

It's hard to pinpoint OKC's biggest weakness against the Heat. They suddenly couldn't defend the pick-and-roll, Harden's shooting and ball handling went south, and they were generally manhandled in the post.

Nash solves none of those problems. But Nash would give them the ability to score some points when the game slows down and they absolutely have to have a good shot. Durant's scoring would be ridiculous.

My question is, if OKC really wants this, would they rather trade Harden or Westbrook? I'm thinking it's potentially the latter, and that would probably require more from the Suns. I doubt they want to part with Harden, who is -- maybe -- the best all-around SG in basketball. As good as Westbrook is, I don't think he's in the Top 5 right now.

 

[Joe Mama]

Here's the problem I have with Steve Nash in Oklahoma City or Miami. There already are not enough possessions for the perimeter playmakers they have. What each of these teams need more than another playmaker is a true post presence and/or deadeye shooters who play solid defense. Steve Nash may be the best shooter in the game, but he is a defensive liability.

Maybe if he cost the mid-level exception he would make sense for one of these teams, but I just don't see any scenario where they trade one of their up and coming stars with a boatload of value for him.

Joe

 

[Russ Smith]

It's hard to pinpoint OKC's biggest weakness against the Heat. They suddenly couldn't defend the pick-and-roll, Harden's shooting and ball handling went south, and they were generally manhandled in the post.

Nash solves none of those problems. But Nash would give them the ability to score some points when the game slows down and they absolutely have to have a good shot. Durant's scoring would be ridiculous.

My question is, if OKC really wants this, would they rather trade Harden or Westbrook? I'm thinking it's potentially the latter, and that would probably require more from the Suns. I doubt they want to part with Harden, who is -- maybe -- the best all-around SG in basketball. As good as Westbrook is, I don't think he's in the Top 5 right now.

Admittedly I"m biased but after watching Westbrook for the last 5 games and watching Harden, how does one come to the conclusion that Harden is the better player?

Westbrook was facing a defense that often doubled him to make him get rid of the ball, he was defended by either Wade(a bigger athletic guy) or Chalmers (a terrific defender), and none of them could really guard him. The 4-20 game 5 skews his numbers he was shooting 48% for the first 4 games.

Harden struggled all series to make shots, probably in part because he was guarding LeBron so much he was overwhelmed, but then Westbrook wasn't exactly guarding a non scorer usually guarding Wade. Harden had a dream setup in game 5 when he came in, Wade gets his 2nd foul and you figure OKC is going to attack him with Harden off the dribble the rest of the time, and Harden didn't do a thing. Didn't even try to exploit the foul trouble, there's a reason they took Wade off Westbrook and put him on Harden, they knew he couldn't guard Westbrook with 2 fouls, but probably could guard Harden.

Defensively it's not close, Westbrook is FAR better. Harden shoots it better and is a better playmaker, but then somehow Westbrook still gets more assists and more assists per minute.

I could see them trading Westbrook in a blockbuster deal if there are other issues, maybe he and Durant don't get along, he wants to be the man etc, but from strictly basketball sense to me trading him over Harden would be a HUGE mistake. Westbrook is a year older, a late bloomer who's still learning the game. He often has no clue what he's doing out there and still often is unguardable, harden is a much more polished player.

 

[Russ Smith]

Here's the problem I have with Steve Nash in Oklahoma City or Miami. There already are not enough possessions for the perimeter playmakers they have. What each of these teams need more than another playmaker is a true post presence and/or deadeye shooters who play solid defense. Steve Nash may be the best shooter in the game, but he is a defensive liability.

Maybe if he cost the mid-level exception he would make sense for one of these teams, but I just don't see any scenario where they trade one of their up and coming stars with a boatload of value for him.

Joe

What OKC should really do is move Harden to Denver in a deal that brings back Afflalo. Package another deal to Milwaukee to get Mbah A Moute, and have a big UCLA reunion in OKC.

Do agree their big problem in the series was often defense not offense. It's why I think Harden is the more logical guy to move, he's a weaker defender than Westbrook. He's a better defender than Durant but he can't score like Durant can.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'd love to get Harden on this team, but I am not sure I'd give up Gortat. Now, harden is a better player- no question about that, but I am really concerned with his performance in the finals. He'd be a very nice second option on a team, but we don't have the right first option. harden might be good enough to keep us from getting that second option through draft. I'd take Perkins of their hands, but in exchange for Lopez and Frye.

On the other hand, I wonder if it would be worth it to overpay Hibbert a bit and trade Gortat.

 

[elindholm]

I call BS on this. The Thunder have their PG; it's Westbrook. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. He's sort of like Iverson in that respect, and any "true" PG that played along Iverson was always a role player -- it would have made no sense to put a star PG in that position.

As others have pointed out, trading Harden would be a panic move for Oklahoma City, and if they did trade him, they could get a better deal.

The rumor doesn't make sense for the Suns either. Harden is a good player, probably a borderline All-Star at some point. But he's a #2 player on an above-average team, or a #3 player on a very good team. Whether he's even at the level of a #3 player on a championship team is an open question; right now we'd have to guess No. If you're rebuilding around Harden as your #1, you aren't going anywhere.

 

[Gaddabout]

Admittedly I"m biased but after watching Westbrook for the last 5 games and watching Harden, how does one come to the conclusion that Harden is the better player?

Westbrook was facing a defense that often doubled him to make him get rid of the ball, he was defended by either Wade(a bigger athletic guy) or Chalmers (a terrific defender), and none of them could really guard him. The 4-20 game 5 skews his numbers he was shooting 48% for the first 4 games.

Harden struggled all series to make shots, probably in part because he was guarding LeBron so much he was overwhelmed, but then Westbrook wasn't exactly guarding a non scorer usually guarding Wade. Harden had a dream setup in game 5 when he came in, Wade gets his 2nd foul and you figure OKC is going to attack him with Harden off the dribble the rest of the time, and Harden didn't do a thing. Didn't even try to exploit the foul trouble, there's a reason they took Wade off Westbrook and put him on Harden, they knew he couldn't guard Westbrook with 2 fouls, but probably could guard Harden.

Defensively it's not close, Westbrook is FAR better. Harden shoots it better and is a better playmaker, but then somehow Westbrook still gets more assists and more assists per minute.

I could see them trading Westbrook in a blockbuster deal if there are other issues, maybe he and Durant don't get along, he wants to be the man etc, but from strictly basketball sense to me trading him over Harden would be a HUGE mistake. Westbrook is a year older, a late bloomer who's still learning the game. He often has no clue what he's doing out there and still often is unguardable, harden is a much more polished player.

I'm basing on it the whole season, not on the last 5 games. I can see the argument the only concern going into the off-season is how OKC matches up against Miami, and Westbrook is better suited at his position than Harden. But if you ask me which player contributes more over the course of a season? You just can't take away Harden, who is the glue for both for the 1st and 2nd units. Westbrook is just not a consistently good PG. That offense works because Harden makes the big plays when they need them most (just not in the Finals because he's guarding the best player of this generation).

I'm not out on a limb here. OKC considered trading Westbrook back in January. Harden is only being discussed because of 5 games against Miami. Before that, you couldn't pry him from them without giving away the store in return.

 

[Gaddabout]

I call BS on this. The Thunder have their PG; it's Westbrook. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective. He's sort of like Iverson in that respect, and any "true" PG that played along Iverson was always a role player -- it would have made no sense to put a star PG in that position.

As others have pointed out, trading Harden would be a panic move for Oklahoma City, and if they did trade him, they could get a better deal.

The rumor doesn't make sense for the Suns either. Harden is a good player, probably a borderline All-Star at some point. But he's a #2 player on an above-average team, or a #3 player on a very good team. Whether he's even at the level of a #3 player on a championship team is an open question; right now we'd have to guess No. If you're rebuilding around Harden as your #1, you aren't going anywhere.

For the Suns part, if you could get a young No. 2 for Nash and Gortat without giving up draft picks, that's a win. Nash is starting at retirement and Gortat is MAYBE a No. 3 on his good days.

No one's saying the Suns should build around Harden, but he'd definitely be a nice piece and would give them a better sales pitch if they want to play the free agent market. It's a much better prospect than watching Nash leave for nothing and watching Gortat go back to being a palooka without a pick-and-roll partner.

 

[elindholm]

No one's saying the Suns should build around Harden, but he'd definitely be a nice piece and would give them a better sales pitch if they want to play the free agent market. It's a much better prospect than watching Nash leave for nothing and watching Gortat go back to being a palooka without a pick-and-roll partner.

That's true, but I'd be worried about the Suns' ability to extend Harden. His RFA summer is only a year from now, and it's still going to be quite a while before the Suns can accumulate enough assets to even think about relevance. I could see Harden getting very frustrated very quickly if being the only above-average player on a 20-win team. I'd rather be assured of at least having Gortat through 2014.

 

[SunsTzu]

That's true, but I'd be worried about the Suns' ability to extend Harden. His RFA summer is only a year from now, and it's still going to be quite a while before the Suns can accumulate enough assets to even think about relevance. I could see Harden getting very frustrated very quickly if being the only above-average player on a 20-win team. I'd rather be assured of at least having Gortat through 2014.

I tend to agree. While value-wise I have no problem with what's essentially Gortat for Harden and Perkins(and I highly doubt OKC even considers such an offer), the Suns will be hard pressed to get the assets around Harden to put the team into contention.

The Suns signing Harden as a FA in a year or 2 would be ideal assuming they've managed to acquire/develop significant talent. But that is a bit of a long shot.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Except you can't conduct business in the NBA thinking that next year no teams will make enough moves to challenge. Steve Nash has made an awful team look pretty good at times this year--what he brings to the table would absolutely have helped against the Heat. You saw the problems of having nothing but youth on a team.

it was their first time in the Finals and they ran into a team that was just there the year before. Blowing up OKC right now makes as much sense as Miami trading one of their big three last year. Championship teams pretty much ALWAYS need Finals experience, or getting knocked down repeatedly in the playoffs before they finally win the title. The only one I can think of in recent memory that didn't was the 08 Celtics.

and maybe Nash could have brought something offensively to the Thunder, but he would have greatly hurt them defensively, especially against the Spurs where Tony Parker would continue to kill him in their on-going matchup. one of the things that really helped the Thunder was that they had a pretty big backcourt with Westbrook/Thabo. You take Thabo out of the starting lineup and your backcourt is now super-small with Nash/Westbrook and you don't have Thabo to be the irritant on Kobe/Manu.

And with the Heat being a dynasty, you need to make changes to keep up with them. Right now, the Heat are still getting better.

I'm not so sure you need to make THAT drastic of a change tho and I kinda disagree that the Heat are still getting better. They are what they are, which is the NBA Champion and best team in the league, but the only thing i think they keep getting is OLDER at this point. Maybe Chalmers becomes more consistent, but Wade is rapidly aging before our eyes and the rest of their role players are older than dirt.