ESPN Jumps into the JJ vs Boris Debate

[thegrahamcrackr]

Yeah but I think they would more tempted to take the immediate extension, then mess around and wait a year, when anything they can happen, for restricted free agency.

Same thing could be said for Joe. He chose to stand firm over 5 million and took chances with RFA status.

The thing is, a young player coming off a breakout year will want a decent size deal if they settle early. No player thinks that their game will regress any, and the chances of injury are often ignored.

If we are going to lock these guys up this summer, and their production continues, we will have to offer more than their fair value in order to lock them up early. They know how high their value could go with another good season.....just the nature of the beast.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Can you really guarentee this?

 

[The Commish]

Can you really guarentee this?

Ahhh Treesquid, I was waiting for you to pop up.

No I cannot "guarentee" it. But hindsight is 20/20, and if Sarver had the chance to go back and sign Joe much cheaper I think he would. He learned a valuable lesson in all of that. All of us did. While sometimes it may make sense to hold off on extending someone to make sure that their true value is dictated, other times it clearly makes sense to get young guys cheap while you still can. Diaw and Barbosa combined (if extended) will still cost less than what Joe makes. So in many ways it is comparing apples to oranges in regards to the size of the contracts.

Furthermore if you can at least extend them at reasonable contracts you now have pieces that can be traded later on. Nobody in the NBA likes to give up something without getting anything in return. And while we debate whether or not Sarver would have truly matched the offer sheet for Joe, the Suns were still able to get value in return.

There are no guarentees in life, and this by no means is an exception. But I will guarentee you that the Suns will do everything in their power to extend these guys over the summer to avoid RFA even if they have plans of trading one of them later on.

 

[elindholm]

But hindsight is 20/20, and if Sarver had the chance to go back and sign Joe much cheaper I think he would.

How much hindsight do we get to use?

We know now that Johnson has a very fragile ego (even more fragile than we thought) and that he couldn't be happy in Phoenix playing behind two or three All-Stars. We also know that he's not emotionally honest with his teammates or communicative with his employers. And we know that a seven-man rotation, at least for these Suns playing this way, isn't as potent as a nine-man one.

With full hindsight, I'd have to say things worked out just right. The Suns waited a year on Johnson to see how things would develop. Once they got all the information, they parted ways with him and made the team stronger with what they got in return. They're now more versatile, more cohesive, and in better shape for the future. None of this would have been possible had Sarver done the "smart" thing of settling with Johnson two summers ago.

 

[myrondizzo]

never really thought of it that way. great point.

 

[JCSunsfan]

But hindsight is 20/20, and if Sarver had the chance to go back and sign Joe much cheaper I think he would.

How much hindsight do we get to use?

We know now that Johnson has a very fragile ego (even more fragile than we thought) and that he couldn't be happy in Phoenix playing behind two or three All-Stars. We also know that he's not emotionally honest with his teammates or communicative with his employers. And we know that a seven-man rotation, at least for these Suns playing this way, isn't as potent as a nine-man one.

With full hindsight, I'd have to say things worked out just right. The Suns waited a year on Johnson to see how things would develop. Once they got all the information, they parted ways with him and made the team stronger with what they got in return. They're now more versatile, more cohesive, and in better shape for the future. None of this would have been possible had Sarver done the "smart" thing of settling with Johnson two summers ago.

Yep. Sometimes its because you're good, and other times its because you're just plain lucky.

 

[nowagimp]

But hindsight is 20/20, and if Sarver had the chance to go back and sign Joe much cheaper I think he would.

How much hindsight do we get to use?

We know now that Johnson has a very fragile ego (even more fragile than we thought) and that he couldn't be happy in Phoenix playing behind two or three All-Stars. We also know that he's not emotionally honest with his teammates or communicative with his employers. And we know that a seven-man rotation, at least for these Suns playing this way, isn't as potent as a nine-man one.

With full hindsight, I'd have to say things worked out just right. The Suns waited a year on Johnson to see how things would develop. Once they got all the information, they parted ways with him and made the team stronger with what they got in return. They're now more versatile, more cohesive, and in better shape for the future. None of this would have been possible had Sarver done the "smart" thing of settling with Johnson two summers ago.

I'm gonna agree in full here. The supposedly unselfish JJ was actually alot more selfish than we all thought. He needs the ball, he needs to score, and be a star. Winning is secondary for Joe. I'll take Boris, the 2 picks, and more playing time for Barbosa anyday. Its a better future for the team.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

But hindsight is 20/20, and if Sarver had the chance to go back and sign Joe much cheaper I think he would.

How much hindsight do we get to use?

We know now that Johnson has a very fragile ego (even more fragile than we thought) and that he couldn't be happy in Phoenix playing behind two or three All-Stars. We also know that he's not emotionally honest with his teammates or communicative with his employers. And we know that a seven-man rotation, at least for these Suns playing this way, isn't as potent as a nine-man one.

With full hindsight, I'd have to say things worked out just right. The Suns waited a year on Johnson to see how things would develop. Once they got all the information, they parted ways with him and made the team stronger with what they got in return. They're now more versatile, more cohesive, and in better shape for the future. None of this would have been possible had Sarver done the "smart" thing of settling with Johnson two summers ago.

Now thats the Devils Advocate...Great Post!

 

[George O'Brien]

Eric is dead on. JJ always had the talent and was more polished than most coming out of college, but his mood swings could drive you crazy.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Eric is dead on. JJ always had the talent and was more polished than most coming out of college, but his mood swings could drive you crazy.

Mood swings? the guy is like Dexter Manley's autobiography, you can't read it.

 

[hsandhu]

Mood swings? the guy is like Dexter Manley's autobiography, you can't read it.

I think he means mood swings it terms of confidence. One game he looks like he feels he cant be stopped, the next he looks scared to death. Look at home (struggled) vs. road (played well) numbers last year.

 

[panfolk]

How valuable is Barbosa, really? I want to gauge interest here. I think undersized 2 guards with some point potential are becoming increasingly commonplace. I imagine that unless his defence makes him competitive with Bell we might not pay big bucks to resign him. Diaw is a different story entirely. We ought to be willing to get bent over a barrel to resign Diaw.
Just out of curiosity: what are the stand out characteristics of a high post center besides being a big man that can pass from the elbow? Does this include a threat to drive or more of a distance shot threat?

 

[elindholm]

I think undersized 2 guards with some point potential are becoming increasingly commonplace.

In the few games where Barbosa has looked really good, what has stood out is his quickness. He was already among the very quickest players in the league, and it's starting to look as though he has figured out how to use that to his advantage offensively. If that stays the case, he'll be a cut above your typical undersized SG. I mean, he is lightning fast.

 

[panfolk]

I mean, he is lightning fast.

So far the only games I've missed (other than intentionally shutting off the Hawks game at half) are Utah and San Antonio. I agree his drives to the basket are hard to defend, to say the least, but he just doesn't strike me as having much of a mid range game. He doesn't get caught in the air as much as last year but he still doesn't drive and dish exceptionally well. I guess his .417 is pretty respectable at the three. I'm ecstatic that he's playing well after watching him struggle, but I'm just not sure he's one that we need to hold on to. I'd really like for him to be a lifetime Sun though cause I dig his demeanor.

 

[nowagimp]

How valuable is Barbosa, really? I want to gauge interest here. I think undersized 2 guards with some point potential are becoming increasingly commonplace. I imagine that unless his defence makes him competitive with Bell we might not pay big bucks to resign him. Diaw is a different story entirely. We ought to be willing to get bent over a barrel to resign Diaw.
Just out of curiosity: what are the stand out characteristics of a high post center besides being a big man that can pass from the elbow? Does this include a threat to drive or more of a distance shot threat?

When you have a player like Boris, who can distribute the ball, you can afford to play a '2' at the point. Tony Parker does this for the spurs, and Duncan distributes the ball. In my opinion, parker is not really a point guard. As Eindholm stated, Barbosa is a very fast player with(and without) the ball, which causes the opposing defense alot of headaches. This is especially true if that defense lacks alot of speed at the guard positions( 21 pts in 20 min vs the pistons).

A high post center should be able to pass and shoot accurately from the high post. What this does is force his defender out from under the hoop, limiting shot blocking on the penetration move.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

When you have a player like Boris, who can distribute the ball, you can afford to play a '2' at the point. Tony Parker does this for the spurs, and Duncan distributes the ball. In my opinion, parker is not really a point guard. As Eindholm stated, Barbosa is a very fast player with(and without) the ball, which causes the opposing defense alot of headaches. This is especially true if that defense lacks alot of speed at the guard positions( 21 pts in 20 min vs the pistons).

A high post center should be able to pass and shoot accurately from the high post. What this does is force his defender out from under the hoop, limiting shot blocking on the penetration move.

At the beginning of the season i envisoned Diaw and Barbosa getting many minutes together in the back court. I now see Diaws true value is as a forward. The Scottie Pippen comparison is dead on (although i like Diaws post defense and rebounding even more than Pippen at this stage) I would like to see Diaw become more agressive finishing around the hoop and a mid range jump shot. We need to sign him this offseason to an extension b/c the bidding might get out of control otherwise for his skill set (much like Joe)...

the difference is that Diaw is European and they are far more loyal when it comes to these pursuits. From his demeanor and quotes, i expect he is grateful to the Suns for getting him out of Atlanta and allowing him to blossom. He will likley take less to stay with us if past history is any indication.... Joe never even considered how much money the Suns coaching staff made him. I dont expect a similar outlook from Boris....

 

[jibikao]

When you have a player like Boris, who can distribute the ball, you can afford to play a '2' at the point. Tony Parker does this for the spurs, and Duncan distributes the ball. In my opinion, parker is not really a point guard. As Eindholm stated, Barbosa is a very fast player with(and without) the ball, which causes the opposing defense alot of headaches. This is especially true if that defense lacks alot of speed at the guard positions( 21 pts in 20 min vs the pistons).

A high post center should be able to pass and shoot accurately from the high post. What this does is force his defender out from under the hoop, limiting shot blocking on the penetration move.

I don't think Barbosa can ever become a good point guard but I hope he can be a great scoring guard like Tony Parker. Tony is just so good at penetrating and scoring inside. Spurs has Duncan to draw attention and hopefully Amare can become that dominating to draw attention away which will open up the floor for Barbosa.

I saw him playing against Pistons. I don't think Pistons expects Barbosa to score that much. It's a good sign for the team at least.

 

[myrondizzo]

most of the time the really bad teams are the ones that get into bidding wars, and i can't see diaw wanting to go to a bottom scraper again.

 

[The Commish]

most of the time the really bad teams are the ones that get into bidding wars, and i can't see diaw wanting to go to a bottom scraper again.

My point exactly

 

[nowagimp]

the difference is that Diaw is European and they are far more loyal when it comes to these pursuits. From his demeanor and quotes, i expect he is grateful to the Suns for getting him out of Atlanta and allowing him to blossom. He will likley take less to stay with us if past history is any indication.... Joe never even considered how much money the Suns coaching staff made him. I dont expect a similar outlook from Boris....

Two good points here: 1) with the europeans its not all just money, I cant think of a euro player that was seduced by an agent to leave a good situation for just money. 2) I agree, Joe probably doiesn't realize that the suns played him when he was pretty bad, and helped him get better. I remember 2 years of "choking" by joe, and one good year. If we dont get Diaw and the picks, it was a bad investment in player development. Of course, I expect that Joe always thought he was good enough to start and play alot of minutes, he just "didn't get the chance". Many players think that their value is a "one-on-one skills thing", when the team play skills, within a system, is where the real value is.

 

[myrondizzo]

diaw has already played in more wins this year than he did all last season. i dont think he would want to go back to that.

 

[elindholm]

diaw has already played in more wins this year than he did all last season.

Ouch!

 

[slinslin]

Diaw > Johnson

I had a feeling the would be the case during the offseason but now I am absolutely certain.
I am especially impressed with the consistency of Diaw right now.He is sometimes the best player on the floor and playing more and more at an almost allstar like level.

I wouldn't trade Diaw for Johnson if it was possible.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Diaw > Johnson

I had a feeling the would be the case during the offseason but now I am absolutely certain.
I am especially impressed with the consistency of Diaw right now.He is sometimes the best player on the floor and playing more and more at an almost allstar like level.

I wouldn't trade Diaw for Johnson if it was possible.

Foamy would if it saved him a buck.

 

[Evil Ash]

Foamy would if it saved him a buck.

Let it go man, let it go. JJ has proven he (and his psychiatrist (sp?)) aren't worth that kind of money

JJ was an unknown then and wasn't worth the $50 million. If you want to cheer for a team that pays $50 million for an unknown, cheer for the Knicks