ESPN on Reggie Bush brought up an interesting USC point

[Russ Smith]

ESPN was talking about Bush this morning and what his future role is going to be since they said it sure looks like he's not a feature RB. At some point they started to talk about his work ethic and suggested that he's been the best athlete his whole life and he's now in a situation where that's not enough and he has to work harder and it's not clear he's done that yet.

The interesting thing that struck me was that we were having the same discussions here about leinart. LenDale White has had the same knocks on him, not a hard worker. even Lutui had people who said he's overweight and while he plays hard with a mean streak, he's not a hard worker off the field.
Mike Williams is on his 3rd team largely because of his work ethic or lack thereof, and the last time I saw Dwayne Jarrett they were talking about how the coaches had singled him out as a kid who needs to learn how hard you have to work to succeed in the NFL.

So the question is, are we hearing this because USC had so much talent and hype that when guys didn't become instant stars people just assumed they weren't hard workers? or did USC just have a bunch of talented kids who were allowed to coast a bit under Carroll and now their NFL teams are having to deal with the consequences?

 

[cardsfanmd]

Nice post. Good points. I think you have something there.

 

[nashman]

I think its a little of both Russ, in college they could get away with not having to work that hard because the team was so stacked. Now in the NFL where all the teams have elite players they are getting a bit of reality check.

 

[D-Dogg]

Carroll let them coast, for sure. Super players' coach. Combine that with ridiculous talent, and these guys are forced to "earn it" for the first time. At least Matt had more of a "had to earn it" path than the other guys, pressured from Booty, etc and being brought in to be basically a caretaker at first.

 

[CardLogic]

So the question is, are we hearing this because USC had so much talent and hype that when guys didn't become instant stars people just assumed they weren't hard workers? or did USC just have a bunch of talented kids who were allowed to coast a bit under Carroll and now their NFL teams are having to deal with the consequences?

It's the latter.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's the latter.

I tend to agree, I think they had so much talent that Carroll was able to be the friend to the players type of coach and still win.

 

[SeaChicken]

Interesting points. It kind of makes sense when you also consider Lofa Tatupu, who had to bust his butt just to get an opportunity to go to USC (he started out at the U of Maine) made an immediate adjustment to the work ethic in the NFL. Unlike most of the guys that USC recruits, he didn't have the raw size and talent so he was already used to the idea of needing to work harder than everybody else. No surprise that he and Polamalu have been the most successful products from USC in recent memory... so far anyway.

 

[AZCB34]

ESPN was talking about Bush this morning and what his future role is going to be since they said it sure looks like he's not a feature RB. At some point they started to talk about his work ethic and suggested that he's been the best athlete his whole life and he's now in a situation where that's not enough and he has to work harder and it's not clear he's done that yet.

The interesting thing that struck me was that we were having the same discussions here about leinart. LenDale White has had the same knocks on him, not a hard worker. even Lutui had people who said he's overweight and while he plays hard with a mean streak, he's not a hard worker off the field.
Mike Williams is on his 3rd team largely because of his work ethic or lack thereof, and the last time I saw Dwayne Jarrett they were talking about how the coaches had singled him out as a kid who needs to learn how hard you have to work to succeed in the NFL.

So the question is, are we hearing this because USC had so much talent and hype that when guys didn't become instant stars people just assumed they weren't hard workers? or did USC just have a bunch of talented kids who were allowed to coast a bit under Carroll and now their NFL teams are having to deal with the consequences?

It explains Leinarts piss poor mechanics and his questionable game preparations during the week. Talent can get you far in college as an individual and as a team but everyone in the NFL has talent...it is the hard workers who excel in the pro ranks.

 

[Duckjake]

It explains Leinarts piss poor mechanics and his questionable game preparations during the week. Talent can get you far in college as an individual and as a team but everyone in the NFL has talent...it is the hard workers who excel in the pro ranks.

Your right and most of that can be explained by College football being all about recruiting.

College basketball was the same way for awhile as all the best kids went to just a handful of schools, especially those like the Big East that were being featured on ESPN.

It wasn't until the majority of the talent started leaving early for the NBA and TV coverage of college games expanded that the other schools started to catch back up.

 

[Evil Ash]

Your right and most of that can be explained by College football being all about recruiting.

College basketball was the same way for awhile as all the best kids went to just a handful of schools, especially those like the Big East that were being featured on ESPN.

It wasn't until the majority of the talent started leaving early for the NBA and TV coverage of college games expanded that the other schools started to catch back up.

Well that and scholarship limitations

 

[Skkorpion]

Russ, interesting thread. Thanks. I have no answers to the questions.

Wasn't OT Winston Justice a high draft pick from USC too? How is he doing? I don't know and won't have time to look it up until Thursday.

 

[blindseyed]

Russ, interesting thread. Thanks. I have no answers to the questions.
.

I don't either Skkorp but I sure do remember the huge media hype for Bush before the draft. Every 'expert' was saying how he would change your football team and how he was a once in a life-time back etc...it's still early in his career but he sure hasn't lived up to his billing so far.

 

[phillycard]

Russ, interesting thread. Thanks. I have no answers to the questions.

Wasn't OT Winston Justice a high draft pick from USC too? How is he doing? I don't know and won't have time to look it up until Thursday.

They're still talking about him getting owned by Osi Umenyora to the tune of 6 sacks against the Giants. I think it's a confidence thing, but they still have the jury out on him whether he will be the answer when Tre Thomas leaves, which is probably after next year.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Actually, the only guy i can think of who has come in been a productive pro from day 1 is Lofa Tatupu and he came from a football family so i'm sure he knows what it takes to accel in the NFL.Looking back at the first 2 rounds of the draft since '04 Tatupu,Lutui,White,and Bush(although not the impact expected) seem to be the only guys making any kind of mark in the NFL.

04-round 1-Udeze-injuries and no impact for Minnesota
round 2-Jacob Rogers,OT, WHO??, Keary Colbert-Carolina,rarely has an impact.

05-round 1-Mike Patterson,DT, he plays but he's average
Mike Williams,WR, Clarett may have a better career
round 2-Shaun Cody,DE,hasn't done much for the Lions
Lofa Tatupu- all-pro LB

06-round 1-Reggie Bush-good,not great player
Leinart-will lead Cards to the playoffs, but nothing yet.
round 2-Justice-struggling,at best
Lutui-has the makings of an OL fixture for 10 years
Lendale White-has had a very nice year but, who knows, he may be bigger than Lutui next year.

07-round 1-none
round 2-Jarret-no impact
Steve Smith-injured and no impact
Ryan Kalil- don't really know what he's doing.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The i took a look at a random school to see how their guys are doing.I randomly chose Ohio State .

04'-round 1- Wil Smith-approaching elite status as a DE
Michael Jenkins-starting WR,nothing great
Chris Gamble-starting CB, I think he's a very good CB
round 2-nonbody


'05-round 1-nobody
round 2-Mike Nugent-K,won the job as a rookie

'06-round 1- AJ Hawk- starting LB, on his way to becoming a star
Donte Whitner-starter from day 1
Bobby Carpenter-not much of a factor.I warned people ,stay away from him because of steroid rumors.
Santonio Holmes-enjoying a nice year.on his way to stardom
Nick Mangold-starter from day 1
round 2-nobody

'07-round 1-Ted Ginn-starting,juries out
Anthony Gonzalez-starting because of injury but looks like he
has start potential.
round 2-nobody


so while USC has had more guys drafted since '04,teams have gotten alot more production from the OSU guys.I would say that definitely corralates to the atmosphere and coaching staff at the college level.

 

[Duckjake]

The i took a look at a random school to see how their guys are doing.I randomly chose Ohio State

You should have chosen TEXAS. There are 16 players that were on the BCS title team that are currently in the NFL. 8 started and 4 more got playing time Sunday. 3 are out injured.

Talk about having a load of talent on your college team.

 

[Russ Smith]

You should have chosen TEXAS. There are 16 players that were on the BCS title team that are currently in the NFL. 8 started and 4 more got playing time Sunday. 3 are out injured.

Talk about having a load of talent on your college team.

I also think it explains how Texas beat USC in that game, and it wasn't just that Vince Young was the best player on the field. It was essentially the first time USC went out there and did NOT have a huge advantage athletically across the board. For the first time the team across from them had athletes that could hang with them. neither team was particularly well coached but Young's individual brilliance trumped Leinart(who had a nice game himself) and Texas won.

I always knew Carroll's rep was a players coach but it's really telling now how many of his ex players are struggling in large part due to lack of work ethic.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Interesting points. It kind of makes sense when you also consider Lofa Tatupu, who had to bust his butt just to get an opportunity to go to USC (he started out at the U of Maine) made an immediate adjustment to the work ethic in the NFL. Unlike most of the guys that USC recruits, he didn't have the raw size and talent so he was already used to the idea of needing to work harder than everybody else. No surprise that he and Polamalu have been the most successful products from USC in recent memory... so far anyway.

Good post. I love to watch Tatupu and Polamalu because they seem so well-prepared and are able to make plays because of it.

 

[Duckjake]

I also think it explains how Texas beat USC in that game, and it wasn't just that Vince Young was the best player on the field. It was essentially the first time USC went out there and did NOT have a huge advantage athletically across the board. For the first time the team across from them had athletes that could hang with them. neither team was particularly well coached but Young's individual brilliance trumped Leinart(who had a nice game himself) and Texas won.

I always knew Carroll's rep was a players coach but it's really telling now how many of his ex players are struggling in large part due to lack of work ethic.

In addition all of the Wide Receivers that played for Texas in that game are still at UT.

A notable thing about those 16 players, not one of them played LB at Texas. Of 33 former Longhorns in the NFL only 2 are linebackers.

Texas' players doing better in the NFL than they did at UT shows how poorly coached they are in college. Last year with a secondary that would send 3 guys to the NFL the Longhorns ranked 101st in pass defense.

 

[CardLogic]

I also think it explains how Texas beat USC in that game, and it wasn't just that Vince Young was the best player on the field. It was essentially the first time USC went out there and did NOT have a huge advantage athletically across the board. For the first time the team across from them had athletes that could hang with them. neither team was particularly well coached but Young's individual brilliance trumped Leinart(who had a nice game himself) and Texas won.

I always knew Carroll's rep was a players coach but it's really telling now how many of his ex players are struggling in large part due to lack of work ethic.

Interesting discussion. Good input from Cbus and others also.

So the question now, as I see it, will the former USC players eventually become quality NFL players if given additional developmental time? It's surmised that these players have high talent, but is a 3 to 5 year period (while in college) of taking their talent for granted; i.e.- not working hard enough, or not being coached intensely enough; too much to overcome in attempting to make it in the NFL?

I think in some instances it will also depend upon the team environment they encounter upon their entrance to the NFL. Some teams will recognize the talent and seek to give it time to develop, while others may be looking for a more immediate impact and will not have the patience or luxury of allowing "developmental time".

 

[brdcstr]

Actually, the only guy i can think of who has come in been a productive pro from day 1 is Lofa Tatupu and he came from a football family so i'm sure he knows what it takes to accel in the NFL.Looking back at the first 2 rounds of the draft since '04 Tatupu,Lutui,White,and Bush(although not the impact expected) seem to be the only guys making any kind of mark in the NFL.

04-round 1-Udeze-injuries and no impact for Minnesota
round 2-Jacob Rogers,OT, WHO??, Keary Colbert-Carolina,rarely has an impact.

05-round 1-Mike Patterson,DT, he plays but he's average
Mike Williams,WR, Clarett may have a better career
round 2-Shaun Cody,DE,hasn't done much for the Lions
Lofa Tatupu- all-pro LB

06-round 1-Reggie Bush-good,not great player
Leinart-will lead Cards to the playoffs, but nothing yet.
round 2-Justice-struggling,at best
Lutui-has the makings of an OL fixture for 10 years
Lendale White-has had a very nice year but, who knows, he may be bigger than Lutui next year.

07-round 1-none
round 2-Jarret-no impact
Steve Smith-injured and no impact
Ryan Kalil- don't really know what he's doing.

Wait, is the issue players who have had an impact from day 1, or poor work ethic, which presumably prevents players from reaching their potential.

two different issue, actually.

04-round 1-Udeze-injuries and no impact for Minnesota

Udeze is a starter

Keary Colbert

Starter opposite Steve Smith, with Dwayne Jarrett listed as his backup.

05-round 1-Mike Patterson,DT, he plays but he's average

You're kidding, right? the Eagles signed him to a 7 year extension 24 games into his rookie contract. Don't forget to mention he's a starter. I notice you list the Buckeyes as starters, and simply state they 'play' if they're from SC.

Here's a Philly article today about Patterson called : A first rounder nobody can nitpick (except you, of course).


http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20071212_Eagles_-_A_first-rounder_nobody_can_nitpick.html

round 2-Shaun Cody,DE,hasn't done much for the Lions

Starter until injured. Now #2

06-round 1-Reggie Bush-good,not great player

Starter...fastest player in NFL history to 138 receptions.

Steve Smith-injured and no impact

Was in the 3 man receiving rotation until serious concussion sidelined. They love his hands, and made special mention of his work ethic in preseason..

Lendale White-has had a very nice year but, who knows, he may be bigger than Lutui next year.

Starter

Lofa Tatupu- all-pro LB

Starter

Ryan Kalil

Started first few games due to injury. Backup G to all pro(I believe)

Let's also not forget:

Carson Palmer- Starter all pro

Troy P All pro

Justin Fargas Starter Raiders

Matt Cassell backup to Brady, in spite of never starting at SC

Geez, for as poor a work ethic as Pete Carroll players allegedly have...sure seems like plenty are starting at the next level.

 

[chrisrash]

It's completely understandable how one might get the impression that USC practices are lax and Pete Carroll doesn't run a tight ship by looking at the production of Leinart, Bush, White (until this season), Jarrett and Williams, but if you've ever been to a USC practice, you would be very surprised to see just how intense they really are.

Take the Raiders pre-season practices for example. Lane Kiffin, former co-Offensive Coordinator at USC, was reprimanded by the player's union (I can't remember all the details) for the intensity level of his practices. He was doing what he was used to.

People don't really like Pete Carroll because he's laid back and doesn't really fit into what most people visualize as a head coach. He seems so easy going that it's easy to forget what a fierce competitor he is. If you're interested, here's a really great interview he did for Fox Sports Net with the lovely Lindsey Soto: http://youtube.com/watch?v=IshKnrwhwSY

 

[Russ Smith]

It's completely understandable how one might get the impression that USC practices are lax and Pete Carroll doesn't run a tight ship by looking at the production of Leinart, Bush, White (until this season), Jarrett and Williams, but URL]

Well there's also the fact that when he was an NFL HC one of the specific reasons cited for him not succeeding was he was too friendly with the players.

or how the reason the 49ers didn't promote him to HC after Seifert left was because they felt he was more of a friend to the players and wasn't tough enough to be a HC? So instead they hired Mariucci who'd been a HC at Cal for one year and wasn't exactly considered to be tough himself.

Carroll is a FABULOUS college coach, terrific defensive guy, but the reason USC has dominated the pac 10 is recruiting, they've had more talent and better depth than everyone else. That's not a knock on Carroll it's just reality.

There are absolutely players in the NFL who went to USC who are great players and work hard but Bush, White, Leinart, Justice, Williams, Jarrett are all examples of guys who came in heavily touted and didn't succeed as early as projected in part because people around them said they needed to work harder.

Nobody is saying Carroll is a bad coach, just that it's surprising how many players off that team that lost to Texas seem to have the same issue in the NFL.

I think he's a much better coach than Mack Brown mind you.

 

[Russ Smith]

06-round 1-Reggie Bush-good,not great player

Starter...fastest player in NFL history to 138 receptions.

[.

I see someone on the wearesc board must have linked this thread?

The topic came up from comments Drew Brees made and ESPN reported.

 

[CardLogic]

I see someone on the wearesc board must have linked this thread?

The topic came up from comments Drew Brees made and ESPN reported.

That explains the one post'ers... LOL!