Fair and Unfair crticisms of D'Antoni....

[dreamcastrocks]

Its funny that D'Antoni doesn't prepare his players, doesn't call timeouts when the game momentum changes, doesn't have the respect of his players, doesn't rip his players when they decide to not play defense etc., yet the most universally accepted criticism from the fans and the media is he doesn't play his bench enough!

I always laugh at this one. Did D'Antoni tell the Suns not sign Tim Thomas? Did he tell them to trade Kurt Thomas and James Jones? Did he tell them to trade away our first round draft picks for cash?

Which former players proved D'Antoni wrong? Which players couldn't get any time with D'Antoni and went on to be a rotation player with another team?

Jalen Rose? Casey Jacobsen? Pat Burke? Steven Hunter? Jimmy Jackson?

Outside of Brian Skinner, there's not a single guy on our extended bench who deserves to be playing. Linton Johnson, Sean Marks, Pike and Strawberry are LUCKY to even be in the league! Yes, I said Strawberry! This guy was the second to the last player taken in the draft and he plays like it!

That doesn't mean he doesn't have talent. He wouldn't be able to even make it this far without talent. But they all have talent, and I believe if he wasn't playing for us, he'd probably be taking 10 day contracts with various teams or maybe even playing in the D-League.

Hows Nick Fazekas doing for Dallas? Oh wait, they cut him and he just signed a ten day contract with L.A.

Lets look at the rest of the draft board from last year:

http://www.nba.com/draft2007/board.html

Are ANY players taken in the second round getting any playing time? I think Marcus Williams might have been cut by the Spurs and picked up again. Im not sure, but I do know he hasn't gotten any playing time.

So there you go. Instead of saying D'Antoni needs to play/develop his bench, please tell me WHICH players deserves to be playing.

If D'Antoni had capable players, he would play them! But he doesn't! He's given them ALL plenty of opportunities, but they just don't have the ability to play at this level. For all of Pat Burke's griping this year, he couldn't even stay in the league without the Suns.

First of all, how is this not in the D'Antoni coaching thread. That is what we have it for.

Second, D'Antoni has been MUCH better about using timeouts to his credit.

It is possible that D'Antoni told them to not resign Thomas. He was GM at the time. Even if he wasn't ,(don't exactly remember the time frame of when he was GM) coaches most assuredly give their input about signing a player or not.

 

[HooverDam]

First of all, how is this not in the D'Antoni coaching thread. That is what we have it for.

Second, D'Antoni has been MUCH better about using timeouts to his credit.

It is possible that D'Antoni told them to not resign Thomas. He was GM at the time. Even if he wasn't ,(don't exactly remember the time frame of when he was GM) coaches most assuredly give their input about signing a player or not.

If you read "7 Seconds or Less" they talk about the Tim Thomas thing. They said more or less that he's a great pickup for a half a season, but if you give him a big deal, he'll break your heart. Thats probably true, he's getting starter type minutes in LAC and is putting up a decent 12 or so points a game, but thats probably due in part to their depleted roster. Its hard to say what he'd be doing with Brand in the lineup getting most of the touches and Shaun Livingston scoring some as well. I had no problem letting Thomas go for the money he wanted.

 

[Rab]

If you read "7 Seconds or Less" they talk about the Tim Thomas thing. They said more or less that he's a great pickup for a half a season, but if you give him a big deal, he'll break your heart. Thats probably true, he's getting starter type minutes in LAC and is putting up a decent 12 or so points a game, but thats probably due in part to their depleted roster. Its hard to say what he'd be doing with Brand in the lineup getting most of the touches and Shaun Livingston scoring some as well. I had no problem letting Thomas go for the money he wanted.

I had a problem with it when we ended up giving that money to Marcus Banks.

 

[Griffin]

KT hardly played late last season, right? Then, what makes you think DA would have played him more had we not given him away to Sonics? Or that JR would still have gotten any playing time say more than what DJ got with Hill starting? Is it DA's philosophy to blame or Sarver's alleged cheapness?

JR was getting minutes because he could hit the three and played good defense. This is exactly the type of a player we need off the bench right now. DJ can't shoot yet. We just signed Giricek in part because we are missing JR's contribution off the bench. And most importantly, JR had a good contract. He was not overpaid. So yeah, if you give away quality reserves with reasonable contracts so that you can replace them with minimum wage players, that is being cheap.

 

[Chaplin]

JR was getting minutes because he could hit the three and played good defense. This is exactly the type of a player we need off the bench right now. DJ can't shoot yet. We just signed Giricek in part because we are missing JR's contribution off the bench. And most importantly, JR had a good contract. He was not overpaid. So yeah, if you give away quality reserves with reasonable contracts so that you can replace them with minimum wage players, that is being cheap.

Except that last year JR couldn't hit the 3.

 

[Griffin]

Except that last year JR couldn't hit the 3.

Yes, he struggled, but right now DJ is 6/24 in 3-pointers for his career and Giricek is 0/5 in Phoenix and 32% on the season. JR shot 37% in his last year with the Suns and is now shooting 46% with the Blazers in as many shot attempts. Even if you don't know ahead of time that his accuracy would improve, wouldn't you still rather have him on the team?

 

[Covert Rain]

Yes, he struggled, but right now DJ is 6/24 in 3-pointers for his career and Giricek is 0/5 in Phoenix and 32% on the season. JR shot 37% in his last year with the Suns and is now shooting 46% with the Blazers in as many shot attempts. Even if you don't know ahead of time that his accuracy would improve, wouldn't you still rather have him on the team?

Hell no. It doesn't matter what he is doing now. Even if his shooting touch has improved, it was never his ability to hit the outside shot that was the problem. The fact he was so inconsistent was. The guy would disappear for consecutive games. What makes this system work is consistency from the 3 point line. He never had it. You couldn't depend on him.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Just saw this thread. CHRIS SANDERS, ATTENTION PLEASE... PAGING CHRIS SANDERS... why is this thread allowed to continue and not merged with the 'criticism thread'?

For the original argument, I think many have already adequately rebuffed the claim. The failure to develop backup players very risky; towards the end of the season, those players become tired. Tired bodies result in one of two things, or both. #1 The deterioration of quickness and energy, thus resulting in poorer defense and a higher potential for turnovers. #2, Injuries are much more likely with tired muscles and sore bones.

D'Antoni and others on this board cleverly disguise the argument by saying, "who would you rather play, DJ or Nash?" Of course, this really isn't the argument... the question is this, "would you rather have LB play 25-35 min a night, or 15-25 with DJ playing 10 min?" Substitute Diaw and Skinner in the above argument also.

 

[cly2tw]

GS makes run-n-gun work with 10-men rotation by finding and developing guys like Barnett and Azubuike. enuf said.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Just saw this thread. CHRIS SANDERS, ATTENTION PLEASE... PAGING CHRIS SANDERS... why is this thread allowed to continue and not merged with the 'criticism thread'?

For the original argument, I think many have already adequately rebuffed the claim. The failure to develop backup players very risky; towards the end of the season, those players become tired. Tired bodies result in one of two things, or both. #1 The deterioration of quickness and energy, thus resulting in poorer defense and a higher potential for turnovers. #2, Injuries are much more likely with tired muscles and sore bones.

D'Antoni and others on this board cleverly disguise the argument by saying, "who would you rather play, DJ or Nash?" Of course, this really isn't the argument... the question is this, "would you rather have LB play 25-35 min a night, or 15-25 with DJ playing 10 min?" Substitute Diaw and Skinner in the above argument also.

First of all, I hope this place does not become phxsuns.net. That is, I hope all discussions don't have to exist in a single discussion per day. Some people don't like having to scroll through ten pages of back and forth arguing to see the latest news.

Secondly, the original argument wasn't rebuffed by anyone and still stands. All you just pointed out was having a good bench is helpful because of the long season.

Everyone knows that. Thats not what the argument is about.

The point is that if you don't have a good bench, you don't play them like you do. Simply playing guys does not develop a bench. He could have played Pat Burke ever game last year and Burke still wouldn't be in the league today. Same with Jalen Rose.

You know what would happen if D'Antoni listened to everyone about bench play?

We'd probably have around ten more losses.

For the tenth time, which bench players should be playing? I'll listen to Skinner arguments, but everyone else on the team is lucky just to be in the league.

 

[Errntknght]

You know what would happen if D'Antoni listened to everyone about bench play?

We'd probably have around ten more losses.

For the tenth time, which bench players should be playing? I'll listen to Skinner arguments, but everyone else on the team is lucky just to be in the league.

There were a lot of games this year where Boris and Raja played so poorly that almost anyone who could make an NBA roster would be an improvement - not the likes of Pike or Marks but certainly Marcus Banks or DJ. Probably Tucker as well, though he's too much of an unknown to say one way or the other. Brian Skinner could have played more, as well. Leandro had his share of miserable outings - he seems to have regressed on defense this year so any game he wasn't scoring well, he was hurting the team. Then there were the games against weaker teams whose young players were making the Suns look old and tired - it couldn't have cost us any games to give our young guys some burn in those games because we lost them all.

I'm not claiming the young guys are outstanding players - I'd have much rather had guys we could have gotten with our frittered away draft picks - but they are who we have and they compare favorably with some members of D'Antoni's 'fav 7' when the latter are not having good days.

I said at the beginning of the year that if Mike wanted to play uptempo this year he was going to have to go deeper into his bench than he is wont to do - pretty obvious call since the team was looking weary in the 4th Qs last year and they were a year older. Mike didn't do it and, sure enough, Suns uptempo was not very successful.

Actually, as of today, I don't have any major complaints with what D'A is doing. He stopped the absurd attempt to play Shaq out high, running the P&R, and it looks like he's adding Giricek to the rotation.

Yeah, I do think he should keep Skinner in the rotation enough to make him feel like a contributor because of the chance that we may have to rely on Brian at some critical juncture. On the other hand Skinner is not shooting well so he needs to do his best imitation of Shaq when he does get out on the floor - and Mike has always seemed very disinclined to give strict orders to players even when they need it.

I'd like to see some of DJ, too, but not unless he's out there defending like he's on mission to shut someone down. If he's going to help us at all in the playoffs, its going to be through playing some stifling defense. In the Memphis game Straw didn't show anything like that - in fact, he didn't look nearly as good defensively as he has in some of his prior outings.

Go ahead and play the "he's an NBA coach and you aren't" card if you want. I've heard it dozens of times when I criticized McLeod, Westfall, Ainge and Skiles over the years - believe it or not I even heard it for criticizing Frank Johnson! I consider it a concession speech...

 

[TucsonDevil]

First of all, I hope this place does not become phxsuns.net. That is, I hope all discussions don't have to exist in a single discussion per day. Some people don't like having to scroll through ten pages of back and forth arguing to see the latest news.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic. Chris Sanders lumps all threads regarding negativity of D'Antoni in one thread... but apparently this thread is ok because it defends D'Antoni?

Secondly, the original argument wasn't rebuffed by anyone and still stands. All you just pointed out was having a good bench is helpful because of the long season.

Everyone knows that. Thats not what the argument is about.

I don't think D'Antoni knows this... or at least, believes it.

Simply playing guys does not develop a bench.

You are correct with this point. There are two ways to develop a bench... however, if you are familiar with D'Antoni's coaching philosophy, he doesn't run regular practices. In fact, many have reported that in his 'light practices' he doesn't even practice defense... it is just a scrimmage. So, he doesn't develop a bench that way.... that would leave just one more way to develop a bench. Yeah, you guess it, Real Live Games.

You know what would happen if D'Antoni listened to everyone about bench play?

We'd probably have around ten more losses.

You don't know that anymore than I know we would have won a championship with another coach. However, if you believe your statement to be true, I have to argue that my previously stated view has greater proof points.

For the tenth time, which bench players should be playing? I'll listen to Skinner arguments, but everyone else on the team is lucky just to be in the league.

I restate (for the second time), DJ can play steal some of LB's minutes when he can't hit a shot to save a Brazilian dog. Alando Tucker could have stolen minutes from Diaw's fat lazy french fried butt all season, and Sean Marks can get minutes to foul the opposing team's big, in an effort to tire/discourage him.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Yeah, I was being sarcastic. Chris Sanders lumps all threads regarding negativity of D'Antoni in one thread... but apparently this thread is ok because it defends D'Antoni?




I don't think D'Antoni knows this... or at least, believes it.



You are correct with this point. There are two ways to develop a bench... however, if you are familiar with D'Antoni's coaching philosophy, he doesn't run regular practices. In fact, many have reported that in his 'light practices' he doesn't even practice defense... it is just a scrimmage. So, he doesn't develop a bench that way.... that would leave just one more way to develop a bench. Yeah, you guess it, Real Live Games.


You don't know that anymore than I know we would have won a championship with another coach. However, if you believe your statement to be true, I have to argue that my previously stated view has greater proof points.



I restate (for the second time), DJ can play steal some of LB's minutes when he can't hit a shot to save a Brazilian dog. Alando Tucker could have stolen minutes from Diaw's fat lazy french fried butt all season, and Sean Marks can get minutes to foul the opposing team's big, in an effort to tire/discourage him.

If DJ and marks deserve minutes, then I ask you:

Is there ANYONE in this league who DOESN'T DESERVE minutes?

If a career practice player and the second to last player taken in the previous draft should be playing, then every coach in the league is wasting talent.

 

[Griffin]

In fact, many have reported that in his 'light practices' he doesn't even practice defense...

Please post a link to those reports you are referring to.

 

[cly2tw]

There were a lot of games this year where Boris and Raja played so poorly that almost anyone who could make an NBA roster would be an improvement - not the likes of Pike or Marks but certainly Marcus Banks or DJ. Probably Tucker as well, though he's too much of an unknown to say one way or the other. Brian Skinner could have played more, as well. Leandro had his share of miserable outings - he seems to have regressed on defense this year so any game he wasn't scoring well, he was hurting the team. Then there were the games against weaker teams whose young players were making the Suns look old and tired - it couldn't have cost us any games to give our young guys some burn in those games because we lost them all.

I'm not claiming the young guys are outstanding players - I'd have much rather had guys we could have gotten with our frittered away draft picks - but they are who we have and they compare favorably with some members of D'Antoni's 'fav 7' when the latter are not having good days.

I said at the beginning of the year that if Mike wanted to play uptempo this year he was going to have to go deeper into his bench than he is wont to do - pretty obvious call since the team was looking weary in the 4th Qs last year and they were a year older. Mike didn't do it and, sure enough, Suns uptempo was not very successful.

Actually, as of today, I don't have any major complaints with what D'A is doing. He stopped the absurd attempt to play Shaq out high, running the P&R, and it looks like he's adding Giricek to the rotation.

Yeah, I do think he should keep Skinner in the rotation enough to make him feel like a contributor because of the chance that we may have to rely on Brian at some critical juncture. On the other hand Skinner is not shooting well so he needs to do his best imitation of Shaq when he does get out on the floor - and Mike has always seemed very disinclined to give strict orders to players even when they need it.

I'd like to see some of DJ, too, but not unless he's out there defending like he's on mission to shut someone down. If he's going to help us at all in the playoffs, its going to be through playing some stifling defense. In the Memphis game Straw didn't show anything like that - in fact, he didn't look nearly as good defensively as he has in some of his prior outings.

Go ahead and play the "he's an NBA coach and you aren't" card if you want. I've heard it dozens of times when I criticized McLeod, Westfall, Ainge and Skiles over the years - believe it or not I even heard it for criticizing Frank Johnson! I consider it a concession speech...

Astute observation throughout!

I guess DJ's lack of stifling defense was due to the fact that was garbage time, thus lack of urgency.
Tomorrow we'll see how we handle the most dynamic backcourt of Baron/Monta. DJ should see some time trying on either, now we lost our reliable Baron-stopper in Banks.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Please post a link to those reports you are referring to.

This was reported by Dan Bickley of Xtra910 Sports just last week on his radio show. He also incinuated at that time, that it wasn't a well published fact, but nonetheless, true.

 

[TucsonDevil]

If DJ and marks deserve minutes, then I ask you:

Is there ANYONE in this league who DOESN'T DESERVE minutes?

If a career practice player and the second to last player taken in the previous draft should be playing, then every coach in the league is wasting talent.

During the summer, the FO and Coach D'Antoni praised the efforts of Sean Marks and how he was going to be an important piece to their efforts. Of course, you and I, and everyone with a brain knew that the FO and D'Antoni were spinning the loss of KT... however, why is the coach never called out on this?

DJ has talent, as does Alando. Both would be seeing time on many, if not most teams in the NBA. Just because I claim that they should play, I think you are trying to spin this as D'Antoni... I am not suggesting that they start, nor do they take away from Nash's minutes. Rather, they take away from the ineffective (at times) and inconsistent bench players, LB and Diaw.

Oh, and btw, yes, every player in the league deserves (from a talent standpoint) some playing time - they are still paid a full salary. There is a reason that teams have larger rosters than 5 players - tired legs and injuries.