Fascinated to see if the vet tangibles/intangibles pays off in the long run. Cause we did have more youthful options.

[Krangodnzr]

I've defended PFF in the past as a purely math based measurement of performance. With some weaknesses for sure but there isn't a system that doesn't.

But they are smoking crack on Hudson's grades.

He doesn't have a single sack, pressure or hurry through 2 games.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

The same applies to JJ Watt. PFF has him as a 63 pass rush grade. Yet ESPN Pass Rush Win Rate has him as the 3rd best win rate in the league at 27%.

Morgan Fox, the guy behind JJ in PRWR has an 81.3 pass rush grade. It's almost like when you slip on a Cardinals jersey your grades automatically drop.

Maybe it's like commentary crews? When you're the Cardinals you get the C team graders.

FYI in ESPN Pass Block Win Rate for O line Justin Murray is 2nd for OT's and Pugh and Josh Jones and 2nd and 5th respectively for interior. Josh Jones is also 2nd in run block win rate. Yet Jones only has a 46.3 PFF grade

Rodney Hudson is 9th in run block win rate at C.

I don't subscribe to ESPN so I can't tell you where Hudson sits in other metrics. Maybe someone who does could tell us.

During the Arians years, you would think the Cardinals lost every game based on grades.

 

[Chopper0080]

A.J. Green is holding down a position the Cards have struggled to nail down basically since Smoke Brown left town. I'm fine if he's our fourth-best WR because he's the #2 guy who can play outside. Shuffle 5 points from Kirk and Moore over to Green to highlight his impact on their games.

Again, PFF grades aren't much.

I was thinking a lot about this for some reason this AM. AJ Green is doing just enough to make sure Kirk and Moore are able to be successful out of the slot and he is not showing frustration over his role. Maybe that is because we are winning but as of now, he is doing just enough to be a threat out there. He is easily the 4th bet option at WR but he plays a ton of snaps and his size in the running game on the edge adds value (when he doesn't hold).

I do think having a more productive player who can play outside will be a necessary add and it may come at the expense of keeping Kirk. We will see. I look at our 2nd outside WR, both OGs, RT, and TE on offense are areas where the # of snaps could warrant an increase in talent at those roles. Similarly on defense, we need more production out of Zach Allen's role as well as Robert Alfords. Jalen Thompson is interesting and I am excited to see if he can finally stay healthy.

 

[BritCard]

I was thinking a lot about this for some reason this AM. AJ Green is doing just enough to make sure Kirk and Moore are able to be successful out of the slot and he is not showing frustration over his role. Maybe that is because we are winning but as of now, he is doing just enough to be a threat out there. He is easily the 4th bet option at WR but he plays a ton of snaps and his size in the running game on the edge adds value (when he doesn't hold).

I do think having a more productive player who can play outside will be a necessary add and it may come at the expense of keeping Kirk. We will see. I look at our 2nd outside WR, both OGs, RT, and TE on offense are areas where the # of snaps could warrant an increase in talent at those roles. Similarly on defense, we need more production out of Zach Allen's role as well as Robert Alfords. Jalen Thompson is interesting and I am excited to see if he can finally stay healthy.

Remember, it's early days yet too. I still think Green has more to come as this offense evolves and as he earns more trust from Kyler.

There will be games, against good defenses, where Nuk is doubled and the ball has to go elsewhere. The Ram's for example. I would expect of Green is left one on one vs Williams he will get more targets.

 

[kerouac9]

I dont fail to realize ANYTHING.

Darksiders couldn't see this coming from a mile away. I said all offseason Kirk was going to explode in the slot. I was met by cynicism.

And I characterized nothing of the darksides take on Fitz so I dont see why you're getting your knickers in a bundle here.

Dude, your grievance level is off the charts. Are you all right?

From my remembrance the Kirk discourse this off-season was pretty quiet. I know for me, the biggest upside of the Green signing was it would move Kirk back to the slot where he’d be more productive— and I said that at the time.

Kirk has had good two-game stretches before; he has to string a bunch of these together and he’ll make a ton of money when he goes to like Houston or whatever next year.

 

[PACardsFan]

Dude, your grievance level is off the charts. Are you all right?

From my remembrance the Kirk discourse this off-season was pretty quiet. I know for me, the biggest upside of the Green signing was it would move Kirk back to the slot where he’d be more productive— and I said that at the time.

Kirk has had good two-game stretches before; he has to string a bunch of these together and he’ll make a ton of money when he goes to like Houston or whatever next year.

Krang absolutely was emphasizing during the offseason that Kirk would excel in the slot. No one can deny he was pushing that. Many agreed, including myself, but I don't recall if the darksiders contested that point. But, with as much whining as they do, I wouldn't be surprised

 

[BritCard]

Krang absolutely was emphasizing during the offseason that Kirk would excel in the slot. No one can deny he was pushing that. Many agreed, including myself, but I don't recall if the darksiders contested that point. But, with as much whining as they do, I wouldn't be surprised

Oh there has been a tonne of "Kirk sucks and is just a JAG" talk. I don't think Kerouc was one of them though.

 

[BigRedRage]

I like how the threads quickly turn into I was right and you were wrong

 

[Krangodnzr]

Oh there has been a tonne of "Kirk sucks and is just a JAG" talk. I don't think Kerouc was one of them though.

Yep. Lots of it.

It's just funny that many of us were told we were drinking kool aid when we specifically laid out how the Cardinals were going to be successful using the exact scenario they currently are using!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Dude, your grievance level is off the charts. Are you all right?

From my remembrance the Kirk discourse this off-season was pretty quiet. I know for me, the biggest upside of the Green signing was it would move Kirk back to the slot where he’d be more productive— and I said that at the time.

Kirk has had good two-game stretches before; he has to string a bunch of these together and he’ll make a ton of money when he goes to like Houston or whatever next year.

I'm good man. I'm extremely happy about this team.

But the Kirk discourse was pretty much silent because most people just waved off the idea that moving Kirk to the slot was a big move. And it's been a clear storyline for the Cardinal's current success thus far.

 

[BritCard]

I'm good man. I'm extremely happy about this team.

But the Kirk discourse was pretty much silent because most people just waved off the idea that moving Kirk to the slot was a big move. And it's been a clear storyline for the Cardinal's current success thus far.

A lot of football discussion is ridiculously short sighted and lacking complexity. Including in the media, hell, even in front offices. Deals like the Jordan Philips one. JAG, JAG, JAG, 10 sacks, oh he's Aaron Donald now!

For example, I see the "Give Chandler all the money" posts have stopped this week. There were reps on Sunday he was being handled by Tyler Conklin.

I think it was always pretty obvious Kirk was being limited by scheme. You can see the same thing with AJ Green now who's having to live on a diet of isolated routes from a limited tree (outs, curls, comebacks) in 1 vs 1 coverage. I think Kliff must design his plays from left to right and by the time he gets to outside right he's like "Crap, I have that date with the IG model. Screw it, just run a 10 yard curl".

This was really evident from Kirks first couple of years where he had much better production than last year but had injury issues.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I dont fail to realize ANYTHING.

Darksiders couldn't see this coming from a mile away. I said all offseason Kirk was going to explode in the slot. I was met by cynicism.

And I characterized nothing of the darksides take on Fitz so I dont see why you're getting your knickers in a bundle here.

Few saw Kirk

Krang absolutely was emphasizing during the offseason that Kirk would excel in the slot. No one can deny he was pushing that. Many agreed, including myself, but I don't recall if the darksiders contested that point. But, with as much whining as they do, I wouldn't be surprised

no one really contested that. In fact despite krang ringing that bell repeatedly in the offseason my recollection is that (a) it wasn’t actually discussed much; and (b) it was never heated. If krang wants to crow about Kirk’s “explosion” (on track for 1,080 in a 16 game season through 2 games) so be it - he called it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

so....you think Jon Gruden was going to trade a star offensive lineman to his arch rival if we didnt get him?
Not in a million years. Never happen.

all three of those guys have delivered acceptable play. JJ Watt has been JJ Watt... he eats up blockers and makes an occasional play in the backfield.

Green has been okay...he made one bonehead mistake when he didnt get both feet in bounds last week... but he is on a new team and playing #2 for the first time in his life....when you have a legit guy at 2 the safeties have to set up just a little wider...that opens holes in the middle for the inside receivers to run through... IMO AJ is doing his job just fine at this point.

Hudson has not been stellar,... but he is learning a new system and has two guys next to him he has never played with before... the comfort level and play level will go up steadily as the line gels into a unit.

Isabella on the outside would not give us the offensive freedom that Green does... first, because Green is a big guy and opens the chances for fifty fifty balls... but mostly because those nfl guys are smart....and they know andy cant catch

Hudson was going to be released. The talking heads expected him to sign with KC.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I've defended PFF in the past as a purely math based measurement of performance. With some weaknesses for sure but there isn't a system that doesn't.

But they are smoking crack on Hudson's grades.

He doesn't have a single sack, pressure or hurry through 2 games.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

The same applies to JJ Watt. PFF has him as a 63 pass rush grade. Yet ESPN Pass Rush Win Rate has him as the 3rd best win rate in the league at 27%.

Morgan Fox, the guy behind JJ in PRWR has an 81.3 pass rush grade. It's almost like when you slip on a Cardinals jersey your grades automatically drop.

Maybe it's like commentary crews? When you're the Cardinals you get the C team graders.

FYI in ESPN Pass Block Win Rate for O line Justin Murray is 2nd for OT's and Pugh and Josh Jones and 2nd and 5th respectively for interior. Josh Jones is also 2nd in run block win rate. Yet Jones only has a 46.3 PFF grade

Rodney Hudson is 9th in run block win rate at C.

I don't subscribe to ESPN so I can't tell you where Hudson sits in other metrics. Maybe someone who does could tell us.

That’s why I take all of these metrics with a really healthy dose of salt - many of them at their core have subjective elements which are typically inconsistent and unreliable.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Few saw Kirk

no one really contested that. In fact despite krang ringing that bell repeatedly in the offseason my recollection is that (a) it wasn’t actually discussed much; and (b) it was never heated. If krang wants to crow about Kirk’s “explosion” (on track for 1,080 in a 16 game season through 2 games) so be it - he called it.

His actual numbers aren't that relevant when you look at the entirety of the passing/receiving numbers.

What I'm liking is that the Cardinals are on pace to basically have three 1000 yard receivers. That's not exactly what I envisioned, but it's close.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I like how the threads quickly turn into I was right and you were wrong

Kinda only from one side. Consistent with past practice.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm good man. I'm extremely happy about this team.

But the Kirk discourse was pretty much silent because most people just waved off the idea that moving Kirk to the slot was a big move. And it's been a clear storyline for the Cardinal's current success thus far.

If it was silent then you’re assuming the reason. I’ll admit that I’ve been disappointed in Kirk until this year. I thought, as mentioned earlier, that a move to slot made sense for him, but I didn’t comment on it bc I just didn’t expect much of him. 67 yards/game is a nice return thus far, not what I’d call an “explosion,” but more importantly his drops or mental miscues at key moments are gone through two games and that’s huge.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

His actual numbers aren't that relevant when you look at the entirety of the passing/receiving numbers.

What I'm liking is that the Cardinals are on pace to basically have three 1000 yard receivers. That's not exactly what I envisioned, but it's close.

I only think that holds if Nuk has less than his typical 1300-1400 yards - which might be the case given the availability of other options.

 

[BigRedRage]

Kinda only from one side. Consistent with past practice.

I'm less patient than most. Typically the first page is interesting and then turns into off topic. The mega threads drive me crazy for that fact. Real info buried under chest pounding

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm less patient than most. Typically the first page is interesting and then turns into off topic. The mega threads drive me crazy for that fact. Real info buried under chest pounding

I get it. I admittedly get carried away trying to defend other posters from attacks. My internal sense of justice gets the better of me (as if you don’t know that from the P&R board).

 

[BigRedRage]

I get it. I admittedly get carried away trying to defend other posters from attacks. My internal sense of justice gets the better of me (as if you don’t know that from the P&R board).

I'm barely in there anymore because it's mostly all mega threads lol

hope all is well with you and yours

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm barely in there anymore because it's mostly all mega threads lol

hope all is well with you and yours

You and yours as well

 

[Krangodnzr]

I watched a bit of PP21's podcast and he pointed out that PFF negatively graded him for the play that Rondale scored on.

His coverage assignment was Hopkins on the play. The safety up top was the one who made the mental error because the play was designed to make the deep safety choose, and he chose wrong.

This is the problem with PFF and why I only loosely read their grades.

 

[SoonerLou]

I can't say anything bad about Hudson so far to me he's been good. Maybe PFF doesn't agree but Kyler called him out for the all out blitz in the first game for seeing it pre snap and alerting Kyler to change the play. I think he's likely doing stuff like that far more often than we realize.

It definitely appears to me that Kyler is very comfortable with him. One thing is there's been several iffy snaps, a couple where Kyler didn't think it was coming and it did and a couple of high or low ones that Kyler handled. I'm assuming Hudson's just not used to this many longer snaps since we're rarely under Center.

Thought about this post after the recent struggles. To me we win that Rams game if not for Donald going all time great/Kyler's bad ints. Hudson controlled Donald that 1st game. Rams smartly lined him over Garcia that 2nd game. Still the drop off from Hudson (+now without Hopkins) is quite clear. Its important to get him back. Its kinda exposed Kyler's flaws.

I will say I still think Creed was the answer. The injuries/him being older so Covid probably hurting him more. However, Kyler needs Hudson's set of eyes. Hindsight, I think ideally you take Creed over Moore in round 2 and have him play guard. I would have taken Creed over Zaven, but I was kinda alone on that thinking and the value wasnt there.

Still I think the post season success will be there once Hudson returns. Its just hoping he's good to go and the same guy.