Fassel Update:

john h

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Originally posted by Brevity
Someone pleae help me understand. Why do we want to rid ourselves of one 4-12 coach for another 4-12 coach?

Were the Giants really that low on talent?

I am not being facetious. Just asking a question in order to find out the answer.

Sometimes you just need to change for change sake when you are as bad as we are. Fassel at least has a record of some success. Mac does not. We need to change the entire staff no matter what. I still like to point out what a new GM and new Coach (Dusty Baker) did for the Cubs in just one year. Last place to the playoffs and 5 outs from the world series. These guys can make a difference. We have players now coming to the Cubs for less money than they were offered elsewhere. If you can put a competitive team on the field for a year the next year you stand a much better chance of getting some of the good free agents. At first I thought we overpaid Baker at $5 mil a year but I now think that was one of our best investments ever. He made a real difference.
 

LVCARDFREAK

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Originally posted by john h
This may well be an indicator of our future. If we lose a coach or coaches because of money we will sort of be on the same track as we have always been. Bidwill has to interview some minorities because of league rules even though he may not be able to afford Green. Snyder is moving fast and hopped in his jet and flying around at near the speed of sound interviewing. You can expect him to announce a hire early next week in my opinion. I do not know how fast we are moving or how long it will take for us to put an offer on the table but it better be quick if we stand a chance of getting one of the good ones. I would imagine some of these coaches come here for an interview just to drive their price up much like free agents and have no intention of comming here. There are some good jobs opening up for coaches. More than I have ever seen.


Regardless, I think Fassel ends up in Buffalo. They will (probably) pay him more and they are a much better team talent wise than the Cards.

I just think it is a better situation for him.


Something interesting, I was just watching Sportscenter and Clayton was saying that Green will probably end up in AZ because he has more "Power". I dont understand that? Are they prominsing Green personell decisions where the Redskins are not?

He also reiterated that Fassel likes Buffalo.
 

Sandan

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Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Something interesting, I was just watching Sportscenter and Clayton was saying that Green will probably end up in AZ because he has more "Power". I dont understand that? Are they prominsing Green personell decisions where the Redskins are not?

No I don't think so. Green knows Rod well and as I've said many times, I can't imagine Rod would not listen to his Head Coach. Green said much the same in the press conference.

I got the impression that Green was quite happy with the potential situation here because

a) He respects Rod Graves ability
b) He feels he would have substantial input working with Rod Graves
 

ajcardfan

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Originally posted by nidan
No I don't think so. Green knows Rod well and as I've said many times, I can't imagine Rod would not listen to his Head Coach. Green said much the same in the press conference.

I got the impression that Green was quite happy with the potential situation here because

a) He respects Rod Graves ability
b) He feels he would have substantial input working with Rod Graves

I think this has to do with the Cardinals "personnel by committee" approach. Graves has not 100% called the shots on personnel and will not with the new coach either.

Exhibit A: Inpur from a very new WR coach (not even the head coach!) apparently the primary reason Boldin was drafted.
 

Sandan

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Originally posted by ajcardfan
I think this has to do with the Cardinals "personnel by committee" approach. Graves has not 100% called the shots on personnel and will not with the new coach either.

Exhibit A: Inpur from a very new WR coach (not even the head coach!) apparently the primary reason Boldin was drafted.

From what I can tell Rod is calling the shots, M Bidwill is backing him up. You are trying to make it sound like they are taking a disorganized approach with the implied slam that Mr Bidwill Snr is still really in charge of personel.

It's just like the press, they keep on asking "So who makes the final choice for head coach Mr Bidwill, M Bidwill or Rod Graves". Several reporters just couldn't put this down.

M Bidwill kept trying to tell them it wasn't an issue. To the darksiders this is evidence that he is avoiding the question, when in reality he is trying to say that it isn't an issue. Maybe it isn't an issue because Rod and MB want the same thing.

Building a consenus is not the same as doing something by committee. Rod Graves is a consenus builder, that means he wants top hear all opinions then they make a group decision. This is typical of a business, I do it. I know for a fact that Rod listens to his scouts/coaches opinions.

That's what I think Green is trying to say. I suspect were he to go somewhere like DC then he would want total control and in writing.
 

Pariah

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Originally posted by ajcardfan

Exhibit A: Inpur from a very new WR coach (not even the head coach!) apparently the primary reason Boldin was drafted.

Are you talking about Sullivan? He's one of the best WR coaches in the league. Of course they'd listen to him.
 

ajcardfan

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Originally posted by Pariah
Are you talking about Sullivan? He's one of the best WR coaches in the league. Of course they'd listen to him.

Supposedly it was Tolbert.
 

ajcardfan

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Originally posted by nidan
From what I can tell Rod is calling the shots, M Bidwill is backing him up. You are trying to make it sound like they are taking a disorganized approach with the implied slam that Mr Bidwill Snr is still really in charge of personel.


I was "trying" nothing of the sort. And any "slam" implications comes from your mind, not mine.

I'll type slowly this time so you can keep up.

Green will have input. Graves has not had the complete say in personnel in the past, he will not in the future. The drafting of Boldin is one example of this. Period.
 

Sandan

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Appologies if you didn't mean that but it still sounds like you think they are disorganized or that Rod Graves is not in control ?

It sounds like the press folks I was listening to, they just couldn't deal with the concept that Rod does not approach things in a dictactorial way.

This does not nean his not decisive or not in control. If you manage your people correctly, then that is not an issue. I do the same thing and have been doing it for years.

Technicily as the owner of the company I have a veto but I never have used it ever. This does not mean that people have to agree with me in fact we frequently go a direction different to mine.

Once we have made the consenus decision, we all run with it. This is how I believe Rod Graves works and I have more than just supposition to make me believe that.

Everybody seems to focus in on who makes the final choice. That implies and event and a snap decision, it is far more of a process and planning. That way when you get there the decision is often obvious.

And for the record, I think you are wrong, Rod does make the decisions but just like any business the owner then blesses them. This is the fundemental difference in the Cardinals now. Previously the ownership made the decisions and the GM implmented them
 

ajcardfan

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Coaches having an input on personnel decisions does mean a consensus has to be reached. This is not a knock on Graves. Perhaps the problem you're having with what I said was my using Boldin as an example of how this has worked. Since others have used that as a negative for Graves management style. I don't see where what I said was a knock. I think it is a positive if it gets Green here as a coach.
 

Sandan

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I think that was what set me off.

The few things I've had explained to me make a lot of sense. This suggests that the process as a whole is also well organized.
 

Shane

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Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I've been "doing my homework". The more I do, the less I am enamored with Green.

I've stated many of the specific reasons why.

I must have missed any of your posts doing the same.

You can call me nuts all you want.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I find it very ironic, to say the least, thay you call ME nuts, based strictly on YOUR opinion, and without any tangible "reason" for doing so.'

I'd be glad to hear what ever justification you have for calling me names like that.


"We will end up with some no name coach who is willing to accept around 1 million per season!"



You could start here, and enlighten some of the rest of us as to what basis you make this statement. Do you have some divine knowledge that this is a fact?

Would you care to wager that the Cards end up spending only "around 1 million" per year for their new coach?


Tango you have been posting around me now for the better part of what 3+ years heck maybe longer? If you cant tell that the Tango your nuts/crazy comment was not an insult it was more like a hey bro your nuts type of thing if you thing were getting that guy.

But as far as the rest:

First off though tell me exactly what do yo mean by homework? What possible digging could you do that you think gives you some mighty insight as to who the Cardinals will hire? I certainly would like to hear it.

Where do I get my basis from? From Cardinals history. From Bidwill history. With the exception of Buddy Ryan name me another "name coach" this organization has aggresively went after?

My home work is being a fan of this team for almost two full decades now and painfully enduring and seeing every move they make.

Tell me what more do I need to make an opinion?

Hey you may be right the this organization may shock me and spend about 1.5 to 2.0 million on a coach now at the most IMO! Yes thats right my opinion!
 

Renz

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Originally posted by Shane H
Hey you may be right the this organization may shock me and spend about 1.5 to 2.0 million on a coach now at the most IMO! Yes thats right my opinion!

The Cards will pay good money for a name coach IMO because they have to get something going before the new stadium opens. They have to! This franchise can't afford to move into the new stadium with a 4-12 team.

I believe they understand this and that they also realize that any money they spend in the next two years they will get back in added revenue from the new stadium.

I think it will be Fassel.
 
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Tangodnzr

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Shane,
First of all I apologize for my over=reaction to your comment.
I guess maybe that was just a result of being a little gun-shy from all the attacks from some of the "dark side" gang.

If you check the "Will the Cards step up" thread, there are back to back posts between Cardiac and myself that I think sum up my feelings and enumerate some of my "research" results.

Basically the more I studied and learned about Dennis Green, it becomes evident to me that he is first and foremost, a political animal whose ego needs to be fed.
He is a great talker. Seems to always have been.
The problem is:
1. ) History has shown he is not a good disciplinarian at all.
2,) His historical record reveals that he does delegate authority very well, as far as the day to day, on the field coaching responsibilities. The problem always seems to be though, if things are going good, he has to have the limelight and get the credit for the success...kind of like John Gruden has been accused of by some. If he doesn't get what he feels is his share of the credit (which is usually nearly all of it), then he will typically create a scene and find a way to eliminate the imagined usurper.
If things don't go well, his historical reaction is to deny responsibility or culpability and find a scapegoat to deflect the criticism too. He can be the classic "smile in your face, but undermine you or stab you in the back the minute you turn away."

I spent a lot of time tracing his history back. If one closely looks, I think you will see that even though he a disciple of Bill Walsh, he is not quite as tight in the "fraternity" of most of the other major ones. Namely George Siefert, Mike Holmgren, Ray Rhodes, Sherman Lewis, (edited to add: Andy Reid),and a few others. Take a look at my "coaching connections, part 2,...year 1999 and observe closely, the shuffle in head coaches and staff that year between Philly, Green Bay, and Seattle, and all the "Walsh disciples" involved.

He does not have a history of developing assistant coaches at all.
In fact, he has always had trouble maintaining much extended loyalty from any.
Probably his most successful disciple would be Brian Billick. There is only 1 asst coach of his that ever stayed with him for an extended period of time...that being Richard Solomon. And if you check back, One of the things that contributed to Red McCombs (Vikings Owner) chasing him when he did was Green's reluctance to fire Solomon as McCombs requested.

When Green was "let go" the whole situation there had degenerated to a total mess. He would hire some experienced coaches, but seldom did they stay in Minnesota long. He has one of the highest turnover ratio's in staff I've ever seen. He was constantly shuffling and hiring "little known" names on and off the staff, many never seem or heard from again, other than their short 1 or 2 year stint with him.

Examination shows that often (not always) you would see coaches making "horizontal" moves to other teams (horizontal meaning...going somewhere else in the same position) or sometimes even "stepping down a notch". Like I said Brian Billick is the one seemingly major exception. He is quick to take credit for Tony Dungy, but Dungy only spent 4 years under Green before going to Tampa Bay. Dungy was tutored intitially by primarily Marty Schottenheimer, and Chuck Noll, to some degree.
He was already a "hot item" when Green hired him away from under Marty.

I think Foge Fazio probably exemplified the where things really were when he, along with 5 other coaches left in 2000. Fagio had been DC for 4 years (after being hired to replace Dungy). Fazio is a well respected, stand-up veteran coach.
He resigned saying things had pretty much deteriorated beyond repair in Minnesota, due primarily to lack of long term continuity and proper planning, AND mismanagement of "cap" allocations/spending.

The word out of Minnesota when Green finally got the axe from McCombs was that he (Green) was going to fire his OC and DC, Sherman Lewis, and Emmitt Thomas, whom were both highly respected coaches whom he had hired to counter the exodus that occured the year before.

As usual Green was ready to make them the scapegoats for what was going on. He refused to accept any responsibility for it.
 
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artp

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I think Snyder ends up with Green. However, that doesn't mean the Cards get Fassel. If you had to rank the 7 jobs available according to their appeal, the Cards' slot would be the least desirable. That means it's likely Fassel goes elsewhere.
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This has been my biggest nightmare. The Cardinals have to be big players in the HC position. There are 7 positions and only about 6 top level candidates I am not counting current college coaches). The old Cardinals would be the least wanted job. We have to hope that R Graves and M Bidwill are willing to be competitive. The "old" Cardinals would hire D Jauron or J Mora, JR.
We have to do better.
 
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Tangodnzr

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Art, I think you've either been listening to Mike Golic too much, or spending too much time at the repulsive board.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Originally posted by artp
I think Snyder ends up with Green. However, that doesn't mean the Cards get Fassel. If you had to rank the 7 jobs available according to their appeal, the Cards' slot would be the least desirable. That means it's likely Fassel goes elsewhere.
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This has been my biggest nightmare. The Cardinals have to be big players in the HC position. There are 7 positions and only about 6 top level candidates I am not counting current college coaches). The old Cardinals would be the least wanted job. We have to hope that R Graves and M Bidwill are willing to be competitive. The "old" Cardinals would hire D Jauron or J Mora, JR.
We have to do better.

My biggest nightmare is that we hire Rich Kotite or Ray Handley!

:eek:
 

Sandan

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Originally posted by Tangodnzr
spending too much time at the repulsive board.

I had to give that up, it was bad for my digestion. Logic seems to not touch them at all.

I see posts there descibing posts here that I have never seen. It's way to bizzare for my stomach to cope with.

I'll take Cheese with his depressed view any day over that.
 
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Tangodnzr

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Exactly right Nidan.

I dropped by there for the first time in months yesterday.

Nothing's changed at all from the last time I checked there.

One of the latest posts was from nemmy, commenting on how ignorant everyone on this board is, and how no one here is smart enough to listen to him. blah, blah, blah,

I saw the same ol' same ol' handful of screen names that have taken up residence in what has become a real squat hole there.

They all remind me of moonies at the airport. Wandering around babbling the same old lines over and over and over and over.

I think maybe the most accurate description of that place now, might be "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest II".

I used to go over there occasionally just to jerk mikeys chain. That even got boring real quick.

:D
 

JeffGollin

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Tang - For all the negatives you've pointed out about Green (i.e. ego, doesn't develop assistant coaches etc.) does he turn out winning teams? Will he turn out a winner for the Cardinals?

That's all that matters.

OT - Any reason why - if the Cards kept Rogucki (subject to interviewing with the new HC) - they wouldn't have worked out something like that with Sully (who's too good an assistant to let just walk away?)
 

pinnacle

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I have not been to azcentral site in ages... About 4 months ago they were still saying the new stadium would not get built (last time I visited the site). Wonder if they have admitted defeat on this issue yet?
 

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