Fire Bob Brenly thread

[AZZenny]

The team needs some spark and I believe firing Brenly would ignite one...

I'm totally ready for Brenly to go, but what do you think "a spark" will really accomplish? This team is going nowhere this season, with or without Brenly. If you look at the long-term player numbers, sure they should be closer to .500 than 16 GAMES BELOW but this is not a competitive or winning team, the GM saw to that in the off-season.

What firing BB might do is save some young (or old) arms from being ruined. Might take some impatient, panicky pressure off young batters like Tracy. Might end his oh-so-successful emphasis on "aggressive at-bats" and return this team to the policy of patience and discipline it showed in its best seasons (we have the second lowest on base percentage in all of baseball right now). Lots of things firing BB might do, but it isn't going to save the season.

My real concern is that if GM Joe remains in control, we're going to look just as jerry-rigged (pun!) and inadequate next year. If RJ and Sexson are here, it'll be because the organization is still promising them to compete as it rebuilds and holds down costs. Trading real future stars for short fixes would be disastrous. Racing guys like Jackson, Quentin, D'Antona too fast through the minors would not be smart, either. Triple-A is not just a holding pen, it's there for a reason. Do the rebuild right, we could be looking very good as soon as 2006-2007.

And they have to stop jerking kids up here prematurely to quick-patch a hole in the pitching - Gonzalez, Cormier, Aquino, Daigle, Bruney - and dumping them back down after they 'disappoint.' None of those guys has been anywhere near ready to come up. They have talent - but do they have confidence now? If we don't have ready arms, think Reynolds, Nance, Parque, Lyons, and you can figure out who to thank.

 

[RLakin]

I'm also concerned about the use of Villafuerte.....

If my calculations are correct...Since 6/15...he's thrown 73 pitches over
4 1/3 innings.....That doesnt factor in how often he warms-up and such... Hasnt he learned anything from what has happened to the likes of Villarreal and Bruney? I honestly dont know.......

Good observation, although Scott Service seems to be reliever of the week.
It gets worse:

http://www.azgameday.com/news_allnews.shtml#newsitem1087406769,53411,

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I'm totally ready for Brenly to go, but what do you think "a spark" will really accomplish? This team is going nowhere this season, with or without Brenly. If you look at the long-term player numbers, sure they should be closer to .500 than 16 GAMES BELOW but this is not a competitive or winning team, the GM saw to that in the off-season.

I knew I would somewhat "stir the pot" with my post.....

I didnt mean "spark" in the sense of what the Marlins did last year (by firing Torborg in favor of McKeon).... I mean... to spark a sense of purpose into this team.....My mantra is when you fire the manager..the onus goes on the players.....I'd rather have that than a manager who constantly comes up with every other reason than to hold his players accountable for their recent play.....If he continues that, the majority of the players become complacent and never improve....They'll just play at the "sluggish" unmotivated level that they have all throughout the season..

What firing BB might do is save some young (or old) arms from being ruined. Might take some impatient, panicky pressure off young batters like Tracy. Might end his oh-so-successful emphasis on "aggressive at-bats" and return this team to the policy of patience and discipline it showed in its best seasons (we have the second lowest on base percentage in all of baseball right now). Lots of things firing BB might do, but it isn't going to save the season.

I will concede the obvious, that the season is lost.... That it is time for them to play for next year (which includes Gonzo to go under the knife ASAP)... Brenly is better suited for a veteran oriented team and I believe that it's in their best interest to fire Brenly and immediately appoint Pedrique as the manager since he goes further back with most of the players on the current roster....Brenly has demonstrated considerable impatience with younger players and that's why most were dealt away immediately (IE Durazo, Spivey, and Overbay)..... I feel that he'll eventually destroy Cintron, Hairston, and whoever else with the contradictory mode he tends to operate in..... I know in some respects a younger player must be "coddled", but the manager must be more direct with them when they commit several mistakes and it seems Brenly fails in communicating with them... It makes me wonder why theyve all had these "player only" meetings recently....It's like theyre going to mutiny against Brenly....

My real concern is that if GM Joe remains in control, we're going to look just as jerry-rigged (pun!) and inadequate next year. If RJ and Sexson are here, it'll be because the organization is still promising them to compete as it rebuilds and holds down costs. Trading real future stars for short fixes would be disastrous. Racing guys like Jackson, Quentin, D'Antona too fast through the minors would not be smart, either. Triple-A is not just a holding pen, it's there for a reason. Do the rebuild right, we could be looking very good as soon as 2006-2007.

I agree with your point there.... They must stop thinking that theyre just 2 or 3 players away from contention and continue to solidify the foundation that they have begun to....Must find a definitve course and continue on it.... I believe the advantage of promoting those 3 would be to give them a taste of the Majors for this season and they could gauge their potential coming into Spring Training....They would know how to counter against the adjustments that the opposing pitchers will make..... They would have the advantage in knowing how to hit a Major League breaking pitch...If they already have that under their belt, then they're ahead of most....

And they have to stop jerking kids up here prematurely to quick-patch a hole in the pitching - Gonzalez, Cormier, Aquino, Daigle, Bruney - and dumping them back down after they 'disappoint.' None of those guys has been anywhere near ready to come up. They have talent - but do they have confidence now? If we don't have ready arms, think Reynolds, Nance, Parque, Lyons, and you can figure out who to thank.

I agree with that and that's why I again contend it's Brenly's best interest to be fired..... Reynolds will be promoted before the weekend and Parque, Nance, and Lyons were all also injured at some time.....

Good observation, although Scott Service seems to be reliever of the week.
It gets worse:

I'd be more concerned about Villafuerte over Service...since Service has had several years of experience being used in that role and the most innings Villafuerte has pitched throughout his career was 40 2/3 innings last year with the Padres and only 32 innings prior to that....

 

[minercon]

I don't know...I wonder sometimes why I watch these games night after night.....except that there is nothing else good on TV.

To me Cintron needs to be traded. That guy fumbles the ball almost every other night. His head is not in the game. His hitting is not impressive either.
You know what...I think this team began its downfall when they traded Reggie Sanders. He was outstanding when it came to fielding and his hitting was consistent. For some reason he cannot stay put with a team, but that team he just finished with each season gets in the playoffs.

Also, what the heck is the matter with Webb this year? He has lost all control . His head is out of it too. Look at his face when he pitches. He looks as if he is gonna cry.

I think Colangelo is becoming money greedy. He has his hands into too many pots. He is in the development business now. He spreads himself too thin and needs to concentrate on one business.

 

[AZZenny]

Well, Jerry gave Brenly till the end of June, and said if it was as bad or worse than April-May, the job security thing would get another look. I may be wrong, but we seem to be dropping like a rock, back to the bottom of the division and nothing obvious in the wings to stop the free-fall...

Only six days till July.

 

[schillingfan]

I have no problem with firing Brenly, but I'd like to see the organization set a definite direction and purpose and pick a manager who fits that. If they are going to rebuild, then hire Pedrique if the Tucson kids like him and work well for him.

If they are going to spend more money, then they may want a more experienced manager.

The problem with this team is that they have no coherent plan. Getting Sexson and trading away some future pieces of the puzzle while signing Reynolds, Mayne, Alomar was just stupid - and I said that at the time, BTW.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I have no problem with firing Brenly, but I'd like to see the organization set a definite direction and purpose and pick a manager who fits that. If they are going to rebuild, then hire Pedrique if the Tucson kids like him and work well for him.

If they are going to spend more money, then they may want a more experienced manager.

The problem with this team is that they have no coherent plan. Getting Sexson and trading away some future pieces of the puzzle while signing Reynolds, Mayne, Alomar was just stupid - and I said that at the time, BTW.

The main question I have for you though? Who were the future pieces of the puzzle that the Dbacks traded?

Spivey? He basically has reached his peak as a player w/out really any room for improvement....They knew that Hairston was waiting in the wings as a long-term solution....Also when Spivey balked at playing RF last season didnt make any matters better with him.....

Overbay? I believe the Dbacks forged too much expectations and pressure onto him... They definitely needed a power-bat in the middle of the order and Overbay never showed true power-potential and never will....I believe he'll soon come down to Earth.....Not ruling out whatsoever that he wont have a solid career ahead of him, but if one were to asked....Sexson (before his season ending injury) or Overbay? Who would you choose?

Capuano? He was the only player that I resented the Dbacks parting with in the trade since he showed lots of promise last season.....It just all reverts back if Sexson hadnt aggravated (and then reaggravated) his shoulder, then we'd be all "jubilant" about the trade....Hindsight is "20-20" as they say..... Plus, they had "Counsell" Part 2 with both Hammock and Kata becoming the utility player.....

Patterson? I believe he had no options remaining, so he would have been claimed off waivers for nothing...... Choate has been decent as of late, and I'll mention later in this post as to why he may factor significantly with the Dbacks......

Durazo? Inevitable that he was going to be traded because of his clashes with Brenly.....I'll say that I obviously wanted more than just Dessens in exchange for him....Imagine if that Larry Walker trade actually did materialize (wasnt Durazo included in the trade package?).....

Prinz and Dellucci? Had better options in Tucson and further down in the farm system....

Barajas/Moeller? I hope Hammock can revert to last year's performance..... I've been impressed with Juan Brito and hope he continues to be the every day catcher (of course gets every 5 days off when Johnson starts)....

How can Choate be a factor?

If Choate continues to excel in his role, he may be valiable trade bait.... Not saying that they'd get the best player in return for him, but perhaps could steal a lower level prospect who could eventually turn into a star or someone who is "trapped" in the Minors since the player at his position on the Parent club might be deep.......The same applies for Sparks, Reynolds (let's say he puts together some solid starts), of course Alomar, Mayne, and whoever else fits that category..... If they could trade 2 or more of those players (even if they just get some cash in exchange), that could gradually reverse the indecision of direction they've exhibited....Plus, getting something in decent value for Finley and Bautista wouldnt hurt........

Going back to Brenly.... His horrible track record with younger players concerns me more than anything else...How he cant convey the basic fundamentals or his inability to communicate with them (mainly calling them out to the press)....... His abuse of the "young arms"...etc....warrants him being fired....

I think Jerry C. claimed....If the team performed the same or worse than last month, that Brenly would definitely be terminated...... They've really been worse (in spite of the recent success of starters)....It still be announced though as a mutual parting and I still contend that it wont happen until during the All Star Break, so the team would have a couple of days to meet and begin the transitioning process.....The fact alone that Brenly hasnt gotten any extension doesnt bode well also......

Also, what the heck is the matter with Webb this year? He has lost all control . His head is out of it too. Look at his face when he pitches. He looks as if he is gonna cry.

That question should be? Who is the "real" Brandon Webb? Was last year an aberration? Is this the "Sophomore Jinx"? I guess only time can tell......

 

[AZZenny]

I think Capuano and Overbay were 'parts of the puzzle' that is the team's future. Lyle was NEVER a power guy, but he is going to be a very very good contact/OBP guy in my estimation - that is not valued nearly enough by this organization, which tends to want every promising hitter to become a slugger. (The first words about Conor Jackson were that they wanted to turn his innumerable doubles into more HR power. Just leave him alone!! The guy walks more than he strikes out! He hits .340!)

The other guys named should have been traded for good young prospects, IMO, as part of a well-conceived rebuilding plan. Here's my problem with Sexson - he wants to play on a contender, not another rebuilding young team - he happily came here for that reason. Re-signing him promises at least another year or two of trying to go two directions at once and screwy trades and signings.

Most of the old guys signed in this off-season are on one-year deals, so we either trade them real soon, or not at all. I doubt anyone will be interested in Reynolds; Choate has a 5.55 ERA, Dessens is right around there (although I bet - I BET Joe will re-sign him for the bullpen next year.) Mayne, Baerga, et al will have to look half-way healthy to unload them. I suspect we're stuck with most of these guys. btw, Jim Parque just announced he is retiring from the game. Wish a few other guys would follow his lead.

What will be really telling, is if they do trade Fins and Danny, what do they get in return? There's the barometer for next year.

Webb jumped unexpectedly from Double-AA ball last year and everyone was surprised at his consistency - the rap on him prior to that was he'd go several innings or a whole game looking great, then lose it for a couple innings or games - that was what he was supposed to work on in Tucson last year. My guess is the 'real' Webb is closer to last year than this, when he's matured a bit - but a really competent pitching coach might be helpful in that process. btw, similar statements made last year about Valverde - he stunned the organization by suddenly finding a focus he'd never seemed to have consistently before.

 

[BC867]

If they are going to rebuild, then hire Pedrique if the Tucson kids like him and work well for him.

If they are going to spend more money, then they may want a more experienced manager.

Al Pedrique has nine years of managerial experience. Ironically a Minor League manager wears more hats than a Major League manager.

The only adjustment he'd have to make is dealing with the Press. I don't think he'd have a problem with that.

 

[BC867]

His horrible track record with younger players concerns me more than anything else...How he cant convey the basic fundamentals or his inability to communicate with them (mainly calling them out to the press).

An excellent point, KingLouieLouie. It's why the D'backs are a dysfunctional group.

Durazo, then Spivey a year later, each reading in the paper that they were being moved to RF. Then each standing up to the Manager, and saying 'no'.

When Brenly backed down with Durazo, it was the beginning of his downfall as Manager. When he repeated the same error a year later with Spivey, and backed down again, it solidified it.

It's a key factor, along with Brenly's inconsistency, in why we are where we are. I believe that, with a skilled Manager, our 3-4-5 starters would be our only significant problem.

 

[schillingfan]

The main question I have for you though? Who were the future pieces of the puzzle that the Dbacks traded?
...
Going back to Brenly.... His horrible track record with younger players concerns me more than anything else...How he cant convey the basic fundamentals or his inability to communicate with them (mainly calling them out to the press)....... His abuse of the "young arms"...etc....warrants him being fired....

Zenny answered the question partly. I wasn't happy with the Patterson trade either. Randy Choate was just an awful acquisition. Patterson was more ready to pitch in the majors than Fossum, Daigle, etc. Plus we gave the best arm in the Schilling deal to Milwaukee, De La Rosa.

I'm not happy with the way Brenly abuses the young pitching arms at all. It was completely predictable that both Koplove and Villareal would go down to injury. But I don't think he has a horrible track record with young players. How can you possibly say that? For the most part the guys coming up to Tucson have performed better than predicted when they first come up given their minor league numbers: Spivey, Cintron, Koplove, Webb, Kata, Hammock, Villareal, Valverde.

Some managers won't even play kids. Brenly gives them all a chance. [/COLOR]

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Most of the old guys signed in this off-season are on one-year deals, so we either trade them real soon, or not at all. I doubt anyone will be interested in Reynolds; Choate has a 5.55 ERA

I agree with most of your last post, however, Choate's ERA is misleading since it only takes 1-2 horrible outing in the role he is in to inflate it.... Several teams are pursuing that LH relief specialist and since Choate is relatively young and cheap (plus his splits vs LH hitters is better than average):

55-ABs
13-Hits
5-2B
0-3B
0-HR
7-RBI
8-BB
2-HBP
23-Ks
0-0 Steal Attempts
.236-BA
.384-OBP
.327 SLG
.676-OPS

He's really supposed to only face 1-2 batters per game, however, the Dbacks injuries necessitated him to be over-extended.......

I don't think he has a horrible track record with young players. How can you possibly say that? For the most part the guys coming up to Tucson have performed better than predicted when they first come up given their minor league numbers: Spivey, Cintron, Koplove, Webb, Kata, Hammock, Villareal, Valverde.

Most of those players you named were excelling when they were initially promoted up from AA & AAA, however, they began to decline immediately (plus the Dbacks coaches didnt make the proper adjustments to counter how the opposition had better scouting reports on them).....

Spivey- Brenly affected Junior's hitting approach by constantly placing him in different slots of the order....When he had Junior bat in the upper third of the line-up..Spivey would begin to spray the ball to all fields...Once he was comfortable with that, Brenly would suddenly bat him 6, which would cause him to try to pull the ball every time up....Also, when Brenly went to media about how Spivey declined to play the OF, I'm wondering if Brenly spoke to him first before blasting him.....

Cintron- Brenly repeated the same pattern that he subjected Spivey to...By constantly switching his spot in the line-up impeded Cintron's offensive approach, and I believe that's compounded how he's performed defensively....

Koplove- Brenly essentially has ruined his arm and I wont be shocked if Mike is hurting now, but wont admit it since he's probably taking everything for the team....

Webb, Kata, and Hammock...the jury is still out on them in regards if they have benefitted from Brenly or not...

Clearly obvious that Brenly's misuse of Valverde, Villarreal, and Bruney have affected their careers and I dont know if they'll ever recover.... The Dbacks are losing by 5-runs in the 9th lastnight and Brenly still insist on bringing in Villafuerte...who had lost 2 consecutive games and I wouldnt completely blame Brandon for that...I bet since he's been used excessively has inflicted a lot of strain on his arm, but he wont admit it since he would lose his spot on the staff........

I bet Brenly could have been fired today, but the Dbacks dont want to detract away from Randy's quest for his 4000 K milestone...Either there will be some announcement forthcoming tomorrow or wont happen until the All-Star Break....

 

[BC867]

Gee, doesn't he look good in a Giants uniform?

 

[schillingfan]

Most of those players you named were excelling when they were initially promoted up from AA & AAA, however, they began to decline immediately (plus the Dbacks coaches didnt make the proper adjustments to counter how the opposition had better scouting reports on them).....

Go back and look at minor league numbers of most of the players promoted in 2001-2003. The D-Backs farm system was not highly rated in part because they didn't have a lot of real prospects.

For the most part the guys overperformed relative to what there minor league records indicated they would do, going back to Spivey coming up in 2001 and having an excellent month and then in 2002. Even Koplove was no great shakes as a reliever in the minors.

For the most part this year the kids are coimng back to earth. Because of excellent one month performances last year some assumed that they were playing at their normal level.

One reason the D-Backs are struggling this year is that the babybacks are playing at closer to their true level.

 

[BC867]

One reason the D-Backs are struggling this year is that the babybacks are playing at closer to their true level.

There are two true levels. Those still on the D'backs and those who have been traded away to play under more organized Managers.