Fire everybody

[sunsfan88]

I am one that did not want Cousins. He is like Morix2 but at 180million. No thanks!

He's much, much, much more talented than both Morris twins combined and he's also an amazing person off the court in terms of helping the community.

 

[elindholm]

Drafting Warren, Booker, Chris, Bender and Ulis. All solid.

Getting two first rounders for a Goran rental. Miraculous.

Getting a first rounder for Markieff. Miraculous.

Signing IT. That has to count as a good move even though trading him does not look good in retrospect.

Signing Tyson Chandler was solid.

Trading for Bledsoe was a good move.

Resigning Bledsoe was a good move.

Bad moves. The IT trade. The Knight trade. The Morris twins.

For a young GM he has not gone all Isiah Thomas on us and traded away our entire future. He has resisted trading away draft picks for short term solutions (except the Laker pick) and there are still a lot of assets in the cupboard

I think that's fair.

What we're being reminded of is that just being lousy for a few years is no guarantee of anything. It's easy to be lousy and say that you're rebuilding. It's easy to keep rolling the dice on the draft and hoping to get a transformational player. There are probably 6-8 teams in the league all trying to do that exact thing, if not more. If it were an easy path to success, you'd see those teams turn around. Instead, they rarely do.

Maybe the Suns will get their future franchise player in the upcoming draft. Otherwise, it's more of the same. I'm not sold on Bender at all. I like Booker and Chriss. Warren is okay. Len is a career backup. Given where those players were taken, it's a decent yield. But if you draft decently and most of your competition also drafts decently, you don't get anywhere.

Getting rid of Tucker was long overdue. Sure, he was good defensively, but his blatant lack of discipline off and on the court can't have been good for team chemistry. He's turned Booker into a yapper and made it easier for Knight to get away with his own nonsense. You have to establish a team culture that gets the most out of the players on the roster, not just shrug your shoulders and say you're waiting for the draft to save you.

 

[pokerface]

I think that's fair.

What we're being reminded of is that just being lousy for a few years is no guarantee of anything. It's easy to be lousy and say that you're rebuilding. It's easy to keep rolling the dice on the draft and hoping to get a transformational player. There are probably 6-8 teams in the league all trying to do that exact thing, if not more. If it were an easy path to success, you'd see those teams turn around. Instead, they rarely do.

Maybe the Suns will get their future franchise player in the upcoming draft. Otherwise, it's more of the same. I'm not sold on Bender at all. I like Booker and Chriss. Warren is okay. Len is a career backup. Given where those players were taken, it's a decent yield. But if you draft decently and most of your competition also drafts decently, you don't get anywhere.

Getting rid of Tucker was long overdue. Sure, he was good defensively, but his blatant lack of discipline off and on the court can't have been good for team chemistry. He's turned Booker into a yapper and made it easier for Knight to get away with his own nonsense. You have to establish a team culture that gets the most out of the players on the roster, not just shrug your shoulders and say you're waiting for the draft to save you.

I dunno...You sound jaded. Too many years of losing maybe?...although I prefer to call it tanking..lol. Sounds more strategic that way.

I kinda agree with everything you're saying although it sounds pessimistic. I mean we knew Bender would be a project...Not sure what we are supposed to expect at this point. The suns saw something in him to draft him that high.. I think they are swinging for the fences with him...Time will tell. At least we have Chris as well and he's a little further along which was expected. He's more of an athlete and had some college ball experience.

Yeah the drafts are a crap shoot but the sheer number of high picks we are getting will have an affect eventually...Maybe we get a top five pick... Maybe the heat picks will add significant value one way or another. Plus Bledsoe and Booker are delivering the goods as we speak...They are very solid players. We have a variety of assets and options.

It's a good time to be a suns fan. I feel like we might be on the ground floor of something special. A top five pick this year could really pump up our fans and solidify our team.

The only thing I'm bummed about is Len and Knight but that's not enough damper my excitement for all the pluses we have in our favor. We got options other fans would dream of about now!

 

[slinslin]

The jury is still out on Warren. He is in his 3rd year and failed to develop a consistent 3pt shot so far.

 

[3rdside]

Drafting Warren, Booker, Chris, Bender and Ulis. All solid.

Getting two first rounders for a Goran rental. Miraculous.

Getting a first rounder for Markieff. Miraculous.

Signing IT. That has to count as a good move even though trading him does not look good in retrospect.

Signing Tyson Chandler was solid.

Trading for Bledsoe was a good move.

Resigning Bledsoe was a good move.

Bad moves. The IT trade. The Knight trade. The Morris twins.

For a young GM he has not gone all Isiah Thomas on us and traded away our entire future. He has resisted trading away draft picks for short term solutions (except the Laker pick) and there are still a lot of assets in the cupboard

JC, this is straight up blinkered talk.

A miracle would be where one side of the trade goes "I can't believe we got this guy for this much!" and the other goes, "OMG we are idiots".

Applying this logic to the trades:

Goran
Miami know they paid a price but they're nearly in the playoffs this year already with nothing but junk on their roster (except Dragic, but their winning is NOTHING to do with him lol). They're a free agent destination with strong management so those picks probably won't amount to a huge loss for them, and besides, what good is a 2021 pick to us now anyway? All I see is Miami with a player I wish we still had, playing a system I wish we still played.

Not a miracle in other words.


Markeiff
For what turned out to be the 13th pick in a very weak draft. A redux might see Morris be the equivalent of a top 5 pick, and do you think Washington are regretting the trade, sitting in 3rd place in the East? Hell no.

Definitely not a miracle either.


IT
Great value spot by McD, pity he couldn't recognise greatness (Boston's greatest EVER scorer by one measure).

This one IS a miracle, only it's a miracle for Boston, we're the idiots.


Tyson
Solid in what way - that he stunted Len's development or that he helps us win when we're trying to tank?


Bledsoe
Solid move but at what cost to the franchise? Bledsoe seems to me to be a stats guy - he gets pretty ones that don't help the W/L (unlike Dragic, who does).

If we forgo Ball in this draft because we think Bledsoe is our guy then shoot me; that's the cost I'm worried about.



"For a young GM he has not gone all Isiah Thomas on us and traded away our entire future."

We could be looking at 2 top 5 picks in the strongest draft in recent memory, instead we've got one, and Brandon fking Knight, who we can't give away for a bag of peanuts.

This is - quite literally - a move that has probably set this franchise back years.

 

[JCSunsfan]

JC, this is straight up blinkered talk.

A miracle would be where one side of the trade goes "I can't believe we got this guy for this much!" and the other goes, "OMG we are idiots".

Applying this logic to the trades:

Goran
Miami know they paid a price but they're nearly in the playoffs this year already with nothing but junk on their roster (except Dragic, but their winning is NOTHING to do with him lol). They're a free agent destination with strong management so those picks probably won't amount to a huge loss for them, and besides, what good is a 2021 pick to us now anyway? All I see is Miami with a player I wish we still had, playing a system I wish we still played.

Not a miracle in other words.


Markeiff
For what turned out to be the 13th pick in a very weak draft. A redux might see Morris be the equivalent of a top 5 pick, and do you think Washington are regretting the trade, sitting in 3rd place in the East? Hell no.

Definitely not a miracle either.


IT
Great value spot by McD, pity he couldn't recognise greatness (Boston's greatest EVER scorer by one measure).

This one IS a miracle, only it's a miracle for Boston, we're the idiots.


Tyson
Solid in what way - that he stunted Len's development or that he helps us win when we're trying to tank?


Bledsoe
Solid move but at what cost to the franchise? Bledsoe seems to me to be a stats guy - he gets pretty ones that don't help the W/L (unlike Dragic, who does).

If we forgo Ball in this draft because we think Bledsoe is our guy then shoot me; that's the cost I'm worried about.



"For a young GM he has not gone all Isiah Thomas on us and traded away our entire future."

We could be looking at 2 top 5 picks in the strongest draft in recent memory, instead we've got one, and Brandon fking Knight, who we can't give away for a bag of peanuts.

This is - quite literally - a move that has probably set this franchise back years.

Wow. You really like Dragic. My evaluation was honest. It did not smack of unrealistic expectations that no Gm meets.

 

[3rdside]

Wow. You really like Dragic. My evaluation was honest. It did not smack of unrealistic expectations that no Gm meets.

I like team basketball that is fast and wins (there's a team called the Phoenix Suns - they used to do a lot of this ) and an effective point guard seems to be a pretty good start to getting there - whether it's Nash, Harden or Dragic doesn't particularly bother me.

But it does when one of those guys was a Sun but is no longer because our GM didn't know what he was doing.

 

[3rdside]

The thing is, as much as I think McD has been largely incompetent to date, if he doesn't get sacked and he drafts Ball (if we should be so lucky) it could turn this franchise around, if not overnight, then in a couple of years.

Booker as the lethal shooter, Chriss catching lobs from everywhere, Warren the volume trash scorer, and running, running and more running.

But it relies on a conspiracy theory (of sorts) I mentioned earlier in the season - that McD (with Sarver's blessing) has instructed Watson to make us lose deliberately.

It's a big one I realise - and the performance of Knight screams coaching incompetence, not craftiness - but we've seen signs e.g. against the Lakers, hardly the best example as they want to lose even more than us, but we ran and we passed - we had 32 assists when we're averaging 18.6 for the season - and for the season as a whole Bledsoe, Booker, Tucker and Chandler probably shouldn't be this bad.

And for a team that preached harmony at the start of the season, to then record the greatest ever home opening loss of all time? That shouldn't logically happen, not least with the talent we've got.

Is Watson the perfect nice guy to see a team through what would normally be a demoralising season? Is he saving a better offense for next season (or does McD have a replacement for Watson in mind)?


Does McD have a grand plan in place?


Or is he really just as incompetent as his record suggests..

 

[Krangodnzr]

JC, this is straight up blinkered talk.

A miracle would be where one side of the trade goes "I can't believe we got this guy for this much!" and the other goes, "OMG we are idiots".

Applying this logic to the trades:

Goran
Miami know they paid a price but they're nearly in the playoffs this year already with nothing but junk on their roster (except Dragic, but their winning is NOTHING to do with him lol). They're a free agent destination with strong management so those picks probably won't amount to a huge loss for them, and besides, what good is a 2021 pick to us now anyway? All I see is Miami with a player I wish we still had, playing a system I wish we still played.

Not a miracle in other words.


Markeiff
For what turned out to be the 13th pick in a very weak draft. A redux might see Morris be the equivalent of a top 5 pick, and do you think Washington are regretting the trade, sitting in 3rd place in the East? Hell no.

Definitely not a miracle either.


IT
Great value spot by McD, pity he couldn't recognise greatness (Boston's greatest EVER scorer by one measure).

This one IS a miracle, only it's a miracle for Boston, we're the idiots.


Tyson
Solid in what way - that he stunted Len's development or that he helps us win when we're trying to tank?


Bledsoe
Solid move but at what cost to the franchise? Bledsoe seems to me to be a stats guy - he gets pretty ones that don't help the W/L (unlike Dragic, who does).

If we forgo Ball in this draft because we think Bledsoe is our guy then shoot me; that's the cost I'm worried about.



"For a young GM he has not gone all Isiah Thomas on us and traded away our entire future."

We could be looking at 2 top 5 picks in the strongest draft in recent memory, instead we've got one, and Brandon fking Knight, who we can't give away for a bag of peanuts.

This is - quite literally - a move that has probably set this franchise back years.

Wow. You really like Dragic. My evaluation was honest. It did not smack of unrealistic expectations that no Gm meets.

I think you love Dragic a bit more than is realistic. Dragic wanted to leave and was going to be a free agent. Getting two picks for a player that was leaving anyway is a miracle.

IT wasn't as good with the Suns as he is with Boston. He showed some signs but the reality is that his game has exploded with Boston. None of us have a view of the locker room, and while this might be conjecture, do you think that maybe IT was causing drama in the locker room? Dragic and Bledsoe showed they could coexist prior to IT's arrival.

Where McD screwed the pooch, was on trading for Knight.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am a huge Dragic fan, but this is a bit silly. He was going to leave anyway, so getting two picks for him was absolutely amazing. I do think McD is to blame for Dragic wanting to leave, but it is what it is. Dragic/ Booker back court would be arguably the worst back court to ever play in the NBA.

 

[3rdside]

I think you love Dragic a bit more than is realistic. Dragic wanted to leave and was going to be a free agent. Getting two picks for a player that was leaving anyway is a miracle.

IT wasn't as good with the Suns as he is with Boston. He showed some signs but the reality is that his game has exploded with Boston. None of us have a view of the locker room, and while this might be conjecture, do you think that maybe IT was causing drama in the locker room? Dragic and Bledsoe showed they could coexist prior to IT's arrival.

Where McD screwed the pooch, was on trading for Knight.

1. It's not Dragic I love necessarily, it's the player and his impact on the team - he delivered fast and fun Phoenix Suns basketball '13-'14, and wouldn't have left if McD had played to his strengths, who instead brought in a chemistry killing third guard.

The Dragic trade viewed in isolation is bad enough, even though we did get a reasonable return on him considering the situation, but it should never have got to that and what makes the whole thing 10,000x worse - and this is where I get so worked up - is how much Dragic, IT and, as you point out, the GD Brandon Knight-Lakers pick fiasco are rubbing it in our faces, all on top of how dire we are and have been since then.


2. I listened to IT's podcast the other day (http://hoopshype.com/2017/02/15/nba-a-to-z-isaiah-thomas-on-life-on-and-off-the-court/) and it sounds like it wasn't him personally causing the problems, it was that there were three starting calibre guards on the roster and Management ended up making them compete for playing time. *


3. If you're a talent scout you should be able to recognise talent, that's the name of the game after all - McD failed the IT trade big time.

 

[3rdside]

*The Dragic saga pointed out how little McD understood the importance of team chemistry. Bringing in Watson and adopting the age-old, time proven, winning management strategy of high-five counting made me think he was at least trying to get on the right track, but trading Tucker makes me think otherwise:

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2...strike-against-gm-ryan-mcdonough-phoenix-suns

 

[3rdside]

I am a huge Dragic fan, but this is a bit silly. He was going to leave anyway, so getting two picks for him was absolutely amazing. I do think McD is to blame for Dragic wanting to leave, but it is what it is. Dragic/ Booker back court would be arguably the worst back court to ever play in the NBA.

Worse than Dragic and Waiters?

He wouldn't have left if we let him carry on running the team.

 

[pokerface]

1. It's not Dragic I love necessarily, it's the player and his impact on the team - he delivered fast and fun Phoenix Suns basketball '13-'14, and wouldn't have left if McD had played to his strengths, who instead brought in a chemistry killing third guard.

The Dragic trade viewed in isolation is bad enough, even though we did get a reasonable return on him considering the situation, but it should never have got to that and what makes the whole thing 10,000x worse - and this is where I get so worked up - is how much Dragic, IT and, as you point out, the GD Brandon Knight-Lakers pick fiasco are rubbing it in our faces, all on top of how dire we are and have been since then.


2. I listened to IT's podcast the other day (http://hoopshype.com/2017/02/15/nba-a-to-z-isaiah-thomas-on-life-on-and-off-the-court/) and it sounds like it wasn't him personally causing the problems, it was that there were three starting calibre guards on the roster and Management ended up making them compete for playing time. *


3. If you're a talent scout you should be able to recognise talent, that's the name of the game after all - McD failed the IT trade big time.

Isaiah Thomas wouldn't have been an all-star on the suns. He wouldn't have gotten the time over Bledsoe. Even now he wouldn't... Thomas couldn't reach his potential on the suns. It's like he fell into our lap and we didn't know what to do with him. It's just one of those things...Ya know?

 

[3rdside]

In the podcast IT was told by McD when he was being scouted there would be plenty of playing time for him, he just didn't expect to be competing for it which is what lead to the team disharmony.

And talent is talent, he's good enough to start anywhere - I think I'm right in saying he was traded after Dragic which meant we could have started him for half a season in Phoenix without Goran to see how good he could have been.

Instead we have Brandon Knight.

IT > Knight
Dragic > Knight
Lakers Pick > Knight

Boston > Phoenix
Miami > Phoenix

 

[pokerface]

In the podcast IT was told by McD when he was being scouted there would be plenty of playing time for him, he just didn't expect to be competing for it which is what lead to the team disharmony.

And talent is talent, he's good enough to start anywhere - I think I'm right in saying he was traded after Dragic which meant we could have started him for half a season in Phoenix without Goran to see how good he could have been.

Instead we have Brandon Knight.

IT > Knight
Dragic > Knight
Lakers Pick > Knight

Boston > Phoenix
Miami > Phoenix

Dude c'mon already... Is Thomas really better than Bledsoe? And even if he is...Does anyone care but you? I mean Bled is playing out of his mind right now... The suns are trying to get a top pick...We have talent already. We scored with Chris and Bender.

Give McD a break!

 

[3rdside]

Lol - McD really doesn't deserve a break unless my conspiracy theory (probably lol in its own right) holds up.

And I don't think anyone would rather Bledsoe and his knees over IT and his MVP-lite abilities.

 

[pokerface]

Lol - McD really doesn't deserve a break unless my conspiracy theory (probably lol in its own right) holds up.

And I don't think anyone would rather Bledsoe and his knees over IT and his MVP-lite abilities.

McD said tonight he's going with the youth movement with the remaining games...So he's basically trying to tank. Then maybe you'll get your precious PG in the draft...Until then you'll have to settle on Bled!

 

[3rdside]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Forward to 2.12 if you're short of time (and 4.09 for the final gut punch) but is a different angle on Phoenix and McD's recruitment. It's possibly reaching a little bit but supports what I've been saying about him, Bledsoe and Dragic.

 

[3rdside]

McD said tonight he's going with the youth movement with the remaining games...So he's basically trying to tank. Then maybe you'll get your precious PG in the draft...Until then you'll have to settle on Bled!

It's Ball all the way for me - again, him, Booker, Warren and Chriss (and Bender at C?) could be awesome in a couple years with the right coach.

 

[chickenhead]

I was more frustrated two years ago than I am now. There were a lot of hiccups and it seemed like the same old refusal to rebuild, but without a true plan and no ability to lure free agents.

More than anything I'm really interested right now. I didn't want Boogie but would have understood it; otherwise I'm glad they only traded for rebuilding purposes. I'm glad that we'll know what everyone's 2017 picks actually are before any further major deals happen.

 

[JS22]

This is the last year of McD's contract so they may not have to fire him. We'll see if Sarver is still committed to the rebuild this summer.

I hope McD stays. And Watson, and everyone else on the staff. McD has made a few pretty big blunders, but he's also put together a team with a bunch of young (potential) talent + a ton of assets. Tired of constantly bringing in new people and "starting over." Ride with this group for another few years at the very least and see where some consistency gets you.

"FIRE EVERYONE!!!!" is just a lazy statement.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I hope McD stays. And Watson, and everyone else on the staff. McD has made a few pretty big blunders, but he's also put together a team with a bunch of young (potential) talent + a ton of assets. Tired of constantly bringing in new people and "starting over." Ride with this group for another few years at the very least and see where some consistency gets you.

"FIRE EVERYONE!!!!" is just a lazy statement.

I agree. Young GM's will make mistakes, but there is no point in firing them after they have learned. Steve Kerr is an example.

I think I am a pretty good judge of capabilities, intellect, and whether a person "get's it." I hire people all the time and have a pretty good track record. To me, McD would be a keeper. Bryan Colangelo, on the other hand, would not be.

I am not sold on Watson as a coach long term. But for the present he is willing to go with the youth movement, keep the team attitude good, and not let the losing drive him crazy. There is no way a championship level coach could handle this right now.

 

[JS22]

I think that's fair.

What we're being reminded of is that just being lousy for a few years is no guarantee of anything. It's easy to be lousy and say that you're rebuilding. It's easy to keep rolling the dice on the draft and hoping to get a transformational player. There are probably 6-8 teams in the league all trying to do that exact thing, if not more. If it were an easy path to success, you'd see those teams turn around. Instead, they rarely do.

Maybe the Suns will get their future franchise player in the upcoming draft. Otherwise, it's more of the same. I'm not sold on Bender at all. I like Booker and Chriss. Warren is okay. Len is a career backup. Given where those players were taken, it's a decent yield. But if you draft decently and most of your competition also drafts decently, you don't get anywhere.

Getting rid of Tucker was long overdue. Sure, he was good defensively, but his blatant lack of discipline off and on the court can't have been good for team chemistry. He's turned Booker into a yapper and made it easier for Knight to get away with his own nonsense. You have to establish a team culture that gets the most out of the players on the roster, not just shrug your shoulders and say you're waiting for the draft to save you.

I don't think I can even get all that upset about the Len pick. Look at that draft. It was pretty terrible. I still think Len could be a serviceable starting center with more minutes. He's STILL only 23 and started playing basketball pretty late. I'm just afraid of the type of contract he'll get.