Fix the D in Free Agency

[BritCard]

Are you arguing for argument's sake? Because that's what it looks like.

Geez man. You know it takes 2 to tango right?

I just don't see how anyone can take 2 sacks seriously when they attribute the whole line with 13 (14 if you count one for Mills).

We had 50 sacks. You at least have to question that right? That's all I'm saying.

 

[BritCard]

So what is it? Do you not believe in PFF or not?

I use thier grades as much as the next guy, but I can't find how they attribute sacks and you have to wonder how we have 50 sacks but only 14 total are attributed to the O line.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I use thier grades as much as the next guy, but I can't find how they attribute sacks and you have to wonder how we have 50 sacks but only 14 total are attributed to the O line.

There are TEs that take sacks. Also, when you scramble and have the ability to throw the ball away, many times they will put that sack on the QB directly. Murray did that a lot this year. Pressure comes in 3-4 seconds. He thinks he can outrun the guy and doesn't. Scrambles out of the pocket and runs out of bounds behind the line. Those all go to the QB.

If a QB makes it out of the pocket, they almost always have the ability to throw the ball away.

 

[BritCard]

There are TEs that take sacks. Also, when you scramble and have the ability to throw the ball away, many times they will put that sack on the QB directly. Murray did that a lot this year. Pressure comes in 3-4 seconds. He thinks he can outrun the guy and doesn't. Scrambles out of the pocket and runs out of bounds behind the line. Those all go to the QB.

If a QB makes it out of the pocket, they almost always have the ability to throw the ball away.

I'm taking into account that Kyler is attributed with 21 sacks. A stat I also question.

It also doesn't account for sacks Kyler avoided through his mobility that otherwise would have been attributed to a lineman.

We obviously have different opinions on this and that's cool. I appreciate the debate. I just don't believe this line is good and extending Hump is extending mediocrity for me.

I would put the odds of him seeing out a 4 year contract as a healthy, top 15 starting LT as less than 10%.

 

[Lagerfilled]

Having K1 affords us the ability to have lesser talents at OT because he can escape so many bad situations. With that said, Kyler had happy feet and held the ball too long in a number of games and that contributed to the elevated sack numbers more so than bad OT play IMHO!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I'm taking into account that Kyler is attributed with 21 sacks. A stat I also question.

It also doesn't account for sacks Kyler avoided through his mobility that otherwise would have been attributed to a lineman.

We obviously have different opinions on this and that's cool. I appreciate the debate. I just don't believe this line is good and extending Hump is extending mediocrity for me.

I would put the odds of him seeing out a 4 year contract as a healthy, top 15 starting LT as less than 10%.

I love the debate. Cheers.

I just don't see how we move on from DJ when we have so many other holes on the team and not enough cap space or Keim nohow.....

 

[slanidrac16]

The franchise tag for tackles will be north of $16m. That’s 16m fully guaranteed.

Of course, that’s just my opinion. 16 m is peanuts to what he would receive with a 5 year contract even if it was 11 m a year.

 

[BritCard]

I love the debate. Cheers.

I just don't see how we move on from DJ when we have so many other holes on the team and not enough cap space or Keim nohow.....

For me part of the reason to move on is the holes. I feel spending $14m on a below average LT is locking us into mediocrity at the position and taking cap space from fixing elsewhere.

I think we can fill the LT hole with a better player in the draft and simultaneously free up cap space to improve the defense.

Look at it this way,

Andrew Thomas and Matthew Judon or DJ Humphries. Which makes a better team?

 

[overseascardfan]

So I realize we need to stretch out the cap space available especially after spending $11M out the gate. I still feel we need to make Littleton our big ticket FA as there is no other three down ILB available and I’m not on Simmons train. I know we’d have a lot invested in our ILBs but it’s money well spent to stop TEs from having career games against us.

My FA signings:
ILB Corey Littleton
OLB Jordan Jenkins
DL Jovan Hargrove
DL Vernon Butler

Re-sign: Zach Brown, Gunter & Bullard for depth.

 

[Chopper0080]

For me part of the reason to move on is the holes. I feel spending $14m on a below average LT is locking us into mediocrity at the position and taking cap space from fixing elsewhere.

I think we can fill the LT hole with a better player in the draft and simultaneously free up cap space to improve the defense.

Look at it this way,

Andrew Thomas and Matthew Judon or DJ Humphries. Which makes a better team?

I feel like this is a disingenuous comp...in reality it would be like this.

LT - Andrew Thomas
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - Matthew Judon

OR

LT - DJ Humphries
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - AJ Epenesa (not the route I would go but it is your scenario)

 

[BritCard]

I feel like this is a disingenuous comp...in reality it would be like this.

LT - Andrew Thomas
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - Matthew Judon

OR

LT - DJ Humphries
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - AJ Epenesa (not the route I would go but it is your scenario)

Fair enough. I do prefer the Judon/Thomas scenario though.

 

[slanidrac16]

So I realize we need to stretch out the cap space available especially after spending $11M out the gate. I still feel we need to make Littleton our big ticket FA as there is no other three down ILB available and I’m not on Simmons train. I know we’d have a lot invested in our ILBs but it’s money well spent to stop TEs from having career games against us.

My FA signings:
ILB Corey Littleton
OLB Jordan Jenkins
DL Jovan Hargrove
DL Vernon Butler

Re-sign: Zach Brown, Gunter & Bullard for depth.

I don’t think we can afford all that. I’d be thrilled with jenkins and Butler.

 

[juza76]

I feel like this is a disingenuous comp...in reality it would be like this.

LT - Andrew Thomas
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - Matthew Judon

OR

LT - DJ Humphries
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - AJ Epenesa (not the route I would go but it is your scenario)

If they don't resign DJ humphries there will be a free agent tackle so I don't think Murray will be the undisputed starter

 

[TheCardFan]

This is potentially setting up nicely for us

Strength in FA is DL - we need DL

Strength in draft is OT and WR

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm normally for getting these kids snaps, but counting on Allen as a starter seems like a real mess when he didn't show anything, and then got hurt. I would aim to sign one high-level guy, and then someone else with experience that can start if Allen just isn't any good.

...Keim hasn't picked many good players over the years, so...

How can you argue “go after a DE bc can’t count on Allen after zero year” whilst constantly arguing “can’t go after wr bc drafted wrs who also had zero years?” Seems kinda hypocritical, no?

 

[Ohcrap75]

I feel like this is a disingenuous comp...in reality it would be like this.

LT - Andrew Thomas
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - Matthew Judon

OR

LT - DJ Humphries
RT - Justin Murray
OLB - AJ Epenesa (not the route I would go but it is your scenario)

I like the way you laid this out.. I like the options at pass rusher in FA better than LT and I like the options at LT better at #8 than pass rusher

 

[Solar7]

How can you argue “go after a DE bc can’t count on Allen after zero year” whilst constantly arguing “can’t go after wr bc drafted wrs who also had zero years?” Seems kinda hypocritical, no?

We need at least one DE even if we decide to count on Allen. Another DE can split time with Allen in a rotation, and be a much cheaper investment, either as a FA or draft pick. We have plenty of room to add additional DEs as we only really have two under contract (sorry, I'm not counting Lyndon Johnson as a contributor. He's a president). We don't have a crowded room and we need players. I'm even fine with calling Allen one of the two starters as long as we have someone semi-capable backing him up/rotating in and out.

Bringing an unknown young WR into a room full of unknown young WRs just seems like a recipe for disaster, and being stuck in 2021 after losing Fitz deciding whether or not to cut our investment in some of these guys very early, have no weapons for Kyler, or just go out and pay someone to replace them.

But just to repeat - I'm only against WR as it stands today. If we have filled most of our needs by the time the draft rolls around, go for it. I'm just not drafting any "nice to have" players when we have a gaping hole elsewhere and there's a great talent on the board to fit it.

 

[Ronin]

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[Chopper0080]

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Oh. I will be shocked if he doesn't get the franchise tag.

 

[Veer]

Ngakoue would kill it opposite Chandler Jones. They would easily have 30+ sacks between them. One can dream...

Give me Epenesa over Judon. Epenesa isn't your flashy edge rusher, but he is a surefire top 15 pick in my book and as safe as an edge defender can be. Checks all the boxes: size, strength, technique, movement. Not the fastest guy but it doesn't matter in tight quarters. He is a force against the run as well. I think in our scheme he is a 3-4 DE and you can move him around. Basically what we thought Zach Allen could be. If we trade down just outside the top 10, give me Epenesa!

 

[Lagerfilled]

Why would we give up on Zach Allen as a potential starting 34DE after four games???

 

[overseascardfan]

I’ve seen Shaquil Barrett linked to us but BA already said he ain’t going anywhere and Barrett said he’d prefer to stay in Tampa. Depending on where we decide to spend most money (ILB or OLB) I’d prefer Dupree but Judon would be a nice fallback and Jordan Jenkins would be last resort option in my opinion.

If Littleton isn’t an option, maybe we look at Blake Martinez? Valley kid who is also only 26 years old. Very productive tackler who can cover from what I’ve read. Travathean’s injury and age give me concerns.

Instead of Hargrove maybe look at Danny Shelton at NT and bring in Butler to play DE with Allen, Dogbe, Bullard to man other side and provide depth.

Not sure how interested we’d be in FA S but Clinton-Dix, Justin Simmons or possibly bringing back Tre Boston would help upgrade FS.

CB I would look at draft to take Lamar Jackson and maybe look at late round guys like Lavert Hill as depth. Unless we get a good deal on a solid CB if we cut Alford.

 

[Chopper0080]

Why would we give up on Zach Allen as a potential starting 34DE after four games???

I think it is less "giving up on" and more "he has to now prove it".

 

[Solar7]

Why would we give up on Zach Allen as a potential starting 34DE after four games???

Like Chopper said, it's a matter of "why would we count on him?"

We need at least one starter, maybe two, so investing in at least one in FA and then another in FA/the Draft that could function as a starter or at least a guy heavy in the rotation to spell both is the best of both worlds.