Football Outsiders: Clean-up on Aisle 2012

[kerouac9]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/clean-aisle-2012

Awesome article on tackles in defensive pass coverage. It's worth reading the whole thing, but here are the takeaways that are Cardinals-centric:

Karlos Dansby is good in coverage. We knew this, but Dansby appears on the league leaders board in pass tackles by linebackers and has a pretty solid pass tackle stop percentage (30%).

Jasper Brinkley and Daryl Washington are not good tacklers in pass coverage. Sorry, D-Wash, but you're among the worst linebackers in stopping pass plays from being successful (25%). Just 8 pass-tackle stops in a 100+ tackle season.

But you're not as bad as Jasper Brinkley, who is poised to be the least successful free agent acquisition in this class. Just 17% of Brinkley's pass tackles are stops, and that's second-worst among linebackers. Combined with Brinkley's status as one of the worst linebackers in the NFL at allowing broken tackles, and it becomes more clear why we drafted Kevin Minter, and less clear why the Cards' front office rated Brinkley so highly at the opening of free agency.

Bad news for me is that Antoine Cason may have been the weak link in the San Diego secondary when it comes to laying wood. Numerous Chargers appear on the "clean-up tackles" list, but Cason was frequently targeted and rarely brought his man down before he'd done his job (59 tackles, just 6 stops).

It was interesting to me that so few Arizona DBs (zero) appeared on this list, but it turns out that Arizona allowed the fewest overall completions in the NFL last year. Part of that is good pass defense, the other part is that teams started running the ball to run the clock after they were up 6 points and the game was hopelessly out of reach.

 

[Duckjake]

Odd stat from the Vikings game. Once Minnesota went up 21-7 after the pick six in the third quarter:

Of the Vikings next 15 plays (4 possessions) 10 were passes. Of those 10 passes there were 6 incomplete and two sacks.

I think I'll watch some of that game tonight to see what D the Cards were playing.

 

[Catfish]

Why would K9 be so quick to throw D-Wash under the bus for being among the worst linebackers in the league stopping pass plays from being successful-----then fail to mention that D-Wash was also listed as the top linebacker in the league for 'clean up tackles'???

 

[joeshmo]

Does this really have to do with actually coverage ability? Unless I missed something and I very well could have, very dry info and I could of faded off, but I think it only says how many tackles they made on a pass play, doesn't say they were the ones responsible for the pass to be converted in the first place. These stats speaks to tackle ability not coverage ability IMO.

And Daryl Washington was tops in one of the categories they didn't bother to show for linebackers.

Another way to look at this would be to look at just cleaning up after mistakes in coverage by removing plays marked "Uncovered" or "Hole in Zone." Here are the players who led the league in those such tackles; as you can imagine, they are all safeties. The top tacklers in this category among cornerbacks were Atlanta nickelback Robert McClain (11), as well as Corey Webster, Jason McCourty, and Josh Wilson (nine each). The top tacklers among linebackers were Daryl Washington (10)

 

[kerouac9]

Why would K9 be so quick to throw D-Wash under the bus for being among the worst linebackers in the league stopping pass plays from being successful-----then fail to mention that D-Wash was also listed as the top linebacker in the league for 'clean up tackles'???

I didn't. You're misreading what's there. D-Wash was among the league leaders in tackles where no one failed in coverage and no one made the play: plays where the completion was to a "hole in zone" or "uncovered" player.

If you want to thump your chest on D-Wash being in the same company and Justin Durant and Craig Robertson, more power to you.

Does this really have to do with actually coverage ability? Unless I missed something and I very well could have, very dry info and I could of faded off, but I think it only says how many tackles they made on a pass play, doesn't say they were the ones responsible for the pass to be converted in the first place. These stats speaks to tackle ability not coverage ability IMO.

And Daryl Washington was tops in one of the categories they didn't bother to show for linebackers.

It starts to when you combine it with Washington's 2 passes defense in 2012 and 11 passes defensed over 3 seasons. He didn't appear among the Top 20 Defenders on "clean-up tackles", which are the fault of other guys screwing up. He appears on a list of "holes in zone" among the top. He appears among the worst linebackers in the NFL on all tackles by linebackers. What's the inference?

Here's what FO has to say:

On a passing play, there is certainly a difference between getting a sack and taking down a receiver after he catches the ball. If he catches the ball, there's a difference between getting a tackle on a guy you were supposed to cover and cleaning up after somebody else's mistake. And even if you tackle a guy you were covering, there's a difference between a tackle that shows bad coverage (say, after a 15-yard gain on first-and-10) and a tackle that shows good zone coverage (say, after an eight-yard gain on third-and-10).

I'm not saying that Daryl Washington is among the "Worst Pass-Tackle Stop Rate By Linebackers, 2012". Football Outsiders is. I'm just saying that when your $10M linebacker is appearing on "Worst" lists, that's probably not good.

 

[Darkside]

This is just more beating on DWash while he's down and in trouble. Nobody complained when he was destroying defenses last year. I love me some statistics--in fact, I'm the hugest fan of them. I could pull out many stats supporting my position that he's a badass, but I'm too lazy and will just ask you to use the eye test. Was he a beast on defense? When you watch on TV, did he make plays? Did he stand out? Did he create "wow" plays?

Every player has weakness, but the fact is DWash is a freakin' stud. He does have weaknesses (which I've pointed out when comparing him to Dansby in regards to running a defense and moving guys around), but so does every player. Can Dansby shoot the gap and sack the QB while he's still faking a handoff? Most likely not, but DWash can and has and does.

You have to also take into account what the player was asked to do--if DWash is told to rush the QB and a pass sails over his head a few feet and the RB takes it 40 yards is that DWash's fault? No. Some of those responsibilities aren't his. You also have to take into account their metrics. On some of those metrics Campbell is our best pass defender because he had insane tips and other things...but that's not his job and not his position. That's exceptional play for his position, but doesn't mean Campbell is a better corner than Peterson.

What I'm trying to say, albeit in a long-winded way, is that the whole premise of this thread is a joke. Some dudes can run a great 40 and some can play, and I'd rather have the player, not the dude with great metrics on a particular site.

 

[52brandon]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/clean-aisle-2012

Awesome article on tackles in defensive pass coverage. It's worth reading the whole thing, but here are the takeaways that are Cardinals-centric:

Karlos Dansby is good in coverage. We knew this, but Dansby appears on the league leaders board in pass tackles by linebackers and has a pretty solid pass tackle stop percentage (30%).

Jasper Brinkley and Daryl Washington are not good tacklers in pass coverage. Sorry, D-Wash, but you're among the worst linebackers in stopping pass plays from being successful (25%). Just 8 pass-tackle stops in a 100+ tackle season.

But you're not as bad as Jasper Brinkley, who is poised to be the least successful free agent acquisition in this class. Just 17% of Brinkley's pass tackles are stops, and that's second-worst among linebackers. Combined with Brinkley's status as one of the worst linebackers in the NFL at allowing broken tackles, and it becomes more clear why we drafted Kevin Minter, and less clear why the Cards' front office rated Brinkley so highly at the opening of free agency.

Bad news for me is that Antoine Cason may have been the weak link in the San Diego secondary when it comes to laying wood. Numerous Chargers appear on the "clean-up tackles" list, but Cason was frequently targeted and rarely brought his man down before he'd done his job (59 tackles, just 6 stops).

It was interesting to me that so few Arizona DBs (zero) appeared on this list, but it turns out that Arizona allowed the fewest overall completions in the NFL last year. Part of that is good pass defense, the other part is that teams started running the ball to run the clock after they were up 6 points and the game was hopelessly out of reach.

do they take targets/completion %/PDs/INTs into consideration on those stats? You don't need to tackle the guy if you keep him from getting the ball

 

[kerouac9]

This is just more beating on DWash while he's down and in trouble. Nobody complained when he was destroying defenses last year. I love me some statistics--in fact, I'm the hugest fan of them. I could pull out many stats supporting my position that he's a badass, but I'm too lazy and will just ask you to use the eye test. Was he a beast on defense? When you watch on TV, did he make plays? Did he stand out? Did he create "wow" plays?

Every player has weakness, but the fact is DWash is a freakin' stud. He does have weaknesses (which I've pointed out when comparing him to Dansby in regards to running a defense and moving guys around), but so does every player. Can Dansby shoot the gap and sack the QB while he's still faking a handoff? Most likely not, but DWash can and has and does.

You have to also take into account what the player was asked to do--if DWash is told to rush the QB and a pass sails over his head a few feet and the RB takes it 40 yards is that DWash's fault? No. Some of those responsibilities aren't his. You also have to take into account their metrics. On some of those metrics Campbell is our best pass defender because he had insane tips and other things...but that's not his job and not his position. That's exceptional play for his position, but doesn't mean Campbell is a better corner than Peterson.

What I'm trying to say, albeit in a long-winded way, is that the whole premise of this post is a joke. Some dudes can run a great 40 and some can play, and I'd rather have the player, not the dude with great metrics on a particular site.

Football Outsiders is banging on Daryl Washington? I somehow doubt it.

Daryl Washington has elite physical skills, and put up a year's worth of great sack numbers. But he's not a complete linebacker: he struggles in coverage and he struggles at the point of attack.

Look at Daryl's big games, and they're essentially piling on in a win that was pulling away anyway. It's possible that Washington is like those NBA "All Stars" who put up stats in big losses. What's the most meaningful play in Daryl Washington's career?

do they take targets/completion %/PDs/INTs into consideration on those stats? You don't need to tackle the guy if you keep him from getting the ball

They do, but it's not in this article. The article is about tackles made on pass plays.

 

[52brandon]

Football Outsiders is banging on Daryl Washington? I somehow doubt it.

Daryl Washington has elite physical skills, and put up a year's worth of great sack numbers. But he's not a complete linebacker: he struggles in coverage and he struggles at the point of attack.

Look at Daryl's big games, and they're essentially piling on in a win that was pulling away anyway. It's possible that Washington is like those NBA "All Stars" who put up stats in big losses. What's the most meaningful play in Daryl Washington's career?



They do, but it's not in this article. The article is about tackles made on pass plays.

but ones actually completed to the guy they were covering, right?

 

[Duckjake]

Every player has weakness, but the fact is DWash is a freakin' stud. He does have weaknesses (which I've pointed out when comparing him to Dansby in regards to running a defense and moving guys around), but so does every player. Can Dansby shoot the gap and sack the QB while he's still faking a handoff? Most likely not, but DWash can and has and does.

Hang on there. Dansby had 20.5 sacks his first 4 NFL seasons. Along with 7 interceptions, 8 forced fumbles, and 6 fumble recoveries. He wasn't franchised two years in a row just for fun.

Of course he was playing a completely different position.

 

[Goldfield]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/clean-aisle-2012

Awesome article on tackles in defensive pass coverage. It's worth reading the whole thing, but here are the takeaways that are Cardinals-centric:

Karlos Dansby is good in coverage. We knew this, but Dansby appears on the league leaders board in pass tackles by linebackers and has a pretty solid pass tackle stop percentage (30%).

Jasper Brinkley and Daryl Washington are not good tacklers in pass coverage. Sorry, D-Wash, but you're among the worst linebackers in stopping pass plays from being successful (25%). Just 8 pass-tackle stops in a 100+ tackle season.

But you're not as bad as Jasper Brinkley, who is poised to be the least successful free agent acquisition in this class. Just 17% of Brinkley's pass tackles are stops, and that's second-worst among linebackers. Combined with Brinkley's status as one of the worst linebackers in the NFL at allowing broken tackles, and it becomes more clear why we drafted Kevin Minter, and less clear why the Cards' front office rated Brinkley so highly at the opening of free agency.

Bad news for me is that Antoine Cason may have been the weak link in the San Diego secondary when it comes to laying wood. Numerous Chargers appear on the "clean-up tackles" list, but Cason was frequently targeted and rarely brought his man down before he'd done his job (59 tackles, just 6 stops).

It was interesting to me that so few Arizona DBs (zero) appeared on this list, but it turns out that Arizona allowed the fewest overall completions in the NFL last year. Part of that is good pass defense, the other part is that teams started running the ball to run the clock after they were up 6 points and the game was hopelessly out of reach.

6 Points down and the game hopelessly out of reach... lmao how were we that bad omg. so true.

 

[Duckjake]

6 Points down and the game hopelessly out of reach... lmao how were we that bad omg. so true.

It's amazing how tough our pass defense was last year. Looking at the play by play of several games there's just one incompletion after another by our opponents.

Teams didn't run the ball because they were ahead. They ran the ball because our defense completely shut down their passing game. Which is why I'm really excited about the new coaches who think we needed an entirely new secondary save PP21.

 

[Catfish]

I didn't. You're misreading what's there. D-Wash was among the league leaders in tackles where no one failed in coverage and no one made the play: plays where the completion was to a "hole in zone" or "uncovered" player.

If you want to thump your chest on D-Wash being in the same company and Justin Durant and Craig Robertson, more power to you.

Not thumping my chest on anything-----I'm only pointing out that in one portion of the article it stated that D-Wash was pitiful, (you pointed that out to us). In another part of the article it said that D-Wash was the best linebacker in the league, (you passed over this).

I'm just saying that this seems to be a habit of yours K9. It's as though you have a vendetta against this current organization. There is much being hailed as very positive all over the media, (and the forums), about our Cardinals, yet you seem to only find negative things to expound on. I was just wondering why.

You have so very much talent to contribute to the on-going debate about the Cards. I am just wondering why you seem to concentrate only on the negative. It seems to me that the debate could be so very much more fruitful if you contributed to both sides of the argument. That's all.

 

[HotSauce]

I didn't read the article on the link but wouldn't a player have a lower percentage of "pass tackles" if he's not used in coverage as much or the person he covers doesn't get as many completions?

I don't know Brinkley's situation, but I would assume they pulled him off the field in their nickel package. And if so, wouldn't that limit his "pass tackles?"

And if Washington was used more to rush the passer or his guy didn't/couldn't get the ball (which would be good), wouldn't that negatively affect that stat? And could Dansby's stat look good because he isn't keeping the player he is responsible for from getting the ball in coverage?

I don't know. Maybe the article explains.

 

[52brandon]

I didn't read the article on the link but wouldn't a player have a lower percentage of "pass tackles" if he's not used in coverage as much or the person he covers doesn't get as many completions?

I don't know Brinkley's situation, but I would assume they pulled him off the field in their nickel package. And if so, wouldn't that limit his "pass tackles?"

And if Washington was used more to rush the passer or his guy didn't/couldn't get the ball (which would be good), wouldn't that negatively affect that stat? And could Dansby's stat look good because he isn't keeping the player he is responsible for from getting the ball in coverage?

I don't know. Maybe the article explains.

the way I understand it, you're kinda right. It doesn't take into account all the times his guy never got the ball, but it doesn't NEGATIVELY affect the stat, but it's essentially writing off a positive stat like it never happened

 

[Arizona's Finest]

LOL that this is still a conversation.

DWash is one of 2-3 best young ILBs in the league K9. Everyone and I mean everyone (dude gets crazy national love) watches the games and sees him as one of the best young defenders in football. Those who don't only have an axe to grind plain and simple. Get over it.

Hes fast, Covers alot of field, He hits hard, he sacks the Quarterback and makes big plays. Thats ALL that matters advanced stats be damned. As Darkside pointed out you can make any claim you want and find stats or a stat to prove your theory.

Heres one: John Skeleton was a good quarterback because he went 5-2 in 2011.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

There are stats which can be made to make any player look good, or bad. I'll go with what my eyes tell me. Washington is a good player and I want him on the field in all situations.

On the other hand, I think Paris Lenon led the Cards in tackles the last few years and my eyes tell me that he was not very good and didn't have much impact on the game.