For draft talk reference

[Goldfield]

I chose MHJ but...

Part of me feels like drafting MHJ would be like buying a Ferrari for the school run. It might be fun for the short ride, but you're not making the best use of its abilities.

We run the ball a lot, and when we do pass tight ends feature heavily. We also have an inconsistent QB who's passing beyond 15 yards has been poor for 2 years.

MHJ will be the best player there if still available but this team and scheme may be better served by a top OT. In the same way that a Ferrari is the better vehicle, but if you want to get 5 kids to school the minivan is the smart choice.

This feels like overthinking things. We were heavy run and heavy passing to TE partially because we had no receivers. MHJ gives us balance/Threat to run or pass as needed.

I also have no problem with adding a good OT

 

[Goldfield]

Another interesting thought...

How many playoff teams have a #1 WR like MHJ?
How many have won the Super Bowl?

My point is a strong #1 CB or a scheme can take out a guy like MHJ quite easily.

It's very hard to take away a dominant OT - in fact, they can take out your dominant pass rusher.

I am not anti-MHJ at all BTW.

I am down to MHJ or Alt right now.

Kinda but if they are scheming to take away MHJ then shouldn’t McBride or Conner have a field day? Wouldn’t that mean they are not scheming to stop something else?

 

[DVontel]

Kinda but if they are scheming to take away MHJ then shouldn’t McBride or Conner have a field day? Wouldn’t that mean they are not scheming to stop something else?

Also makes Wilson’s job easier by not attracting CB1s. That makes Dortch’s job easier, Higgins, etc. Domino effect.

 

[kerouac9]

There are 32 WR1s dude

There aren't, really though. This is a place where everyone gets caught up in definitional quibbles and our Venn diagrams probably overlap +85% or better.

I'm kind out putting words in @DVontel 's mouth here -- so forgive me if I have this wrong. But, I think he's saying there are only 5-10 teams where Amari Cooper would be the preference over their current #1, all things being equal. Amari Cooper and Courtland Sutton (and probably 2023 vintage DeAndre Hopkins) are #1 receivers on pretty bad passing offenses. They'd all probably be #1 for, like, the Chiefs and Giants, but it's not a big group.

Maybe a better way to put it is they're Tier 3 WRs if you count Justin Jefferson, Ja'Marr Chase, AJ Brown, and a few others as Tier 1 (I usually call this the elite tier, FWIW), then DaVonta Smith, Cooper Kupp, D.J. Moore are on Tier 2 (I usually call these guys "stars").

All of this.

This is just a case of folks starting to overthink themselves. Is there a universe where Alt has a better career than MHJ? Sure. I just don’t think it’s likely.

Would I also be more than fine with Alt ONLY if MHJ is already gone? Absolutely.

However, if we get MHJ, I believe Kingsley out of BYU would be a great pick with our 2nd or 3rd pick. Move him back to RT & Paris to LT & I think that would be excellent.

The preferable scenario for the long-term is we get MHJ and move Paris to LT. I think that balances your roster construction better and allows you to give both second contracts.

I think Alt/Fashnau and PJJ puts you in a real straightjacket down the road when you're thinking about contract extensions (should they both work out).

 

[slanidrac16]

Think of it this way: Good teams will shut our run down because they'll be able to handle our passing game with only one true threat in McBride. We will have to beat a lot of good teams if we want to compete. You add MHJ, and teams can't just sell out on the run because now we have a home run threat.

This 100%. It’s kind of amazing when you consider how good our running game was this year when opposition KNEW we were going to run the ball and that McBride was our only true receiving weapon.
We got an idea what this offense looks like when Wilson stepped it up a bit. Imagine adding MHJ to the mix.

 

[slanidrac16]

In fairness to the Brown's offense and Stefanski, the Browns were down to their 4th and 5th offensive tackles, their second running back, and their second QB. If they had all or some of these starters, I would assume that Stefanski's passing and running game would look a lot better.

Yes but Stroud carved up the “ great” Browns defense.

 

[slanidrac16]

We already played plenty of good teams who didn't shut the run down

Correct. However, we could not take advantage of home run hits while having this running game.
I’m going to beat you to the punch because I know your going to claim Kyler’s inability with the deep ball.
But if your wr can’t get separation downfield, lacks the ability to fight for the 50/50 balls AND lack the YAC it is obvious the glaring need we have.

 

[DVontel]

There aren't, really though. This is a place where everyone gets caught up in definitional quibbles and our Venn diagrams probably overlap +85% or better.

I'm kind out putting words in @DVontel 's mouth here -- so forgive me if I have this wrong. But, I think he's saying there are only 5-10 teams where Amari Cooper would be the preference over their current #1, all things being equal. Amari Cooper and Courtland Sutton (and probably 2023 vintage DeAndre Hopkins) are #1 receivers on pretty bad passing offenses. They'd all probably be #1 for, like, the Chiefs and Giants, but it's not a big group.

Maybe a better way to put it is they're Tier 3 WRs if you count Justin Jefferson, Ja'Marr Chase, AJ Brown, and a few others as Tier 1 (I usually call this the elite tier, FWIW), then DaVonta Smith, Cooper Kupp, D.J. Moore are on Tier 2 (I usually call these guys "stars").

Hit it right on the nail of the head.

The preferable scenario for the long-term is we get MHJ and move Paris to LT. I think that balances your roster construction better and allows you to give both second contracts.

I think Alt/Fashnau and PJJ puts you in a real straitjacket down the road when you're thinking about contract extensions (should they both work out).

I agree. Which is why I’m starting to bang the buck on Kingsley Suamataia with one of our 2nd/3rd picks.

 

[oaken1]

Hit it right on the nail of the head.

I agree. Which is why I’m starting to bang the buck on Kingsley Suamataia with one of our 2nd/3rd picks.

MHJ/Murphy/Mims would have me pretty excited about our top three picks

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I’m going to beat you to the punch because I know your going to claim Kyler’s inability with the deep ball.
But if your wr can’t get separation downfield, lacks the ability to fight for the 50/50 balls AND lack the YAC it is obvious the glaring need we have.

Exactly!

Completing a pass where the ball is thrown 40 or 50 yards in the air is much more dependent on the WR vs. on an 8-yard out route.

Kirk could make it work. DHop could make it work. But Hollywood and Moore, while fast enough, don't seem to be able to consistently either adjust the ball in the air, or win a 50/50 ball (or they just flat out drop passes sometimes).

A QBs job on a deep ball is to give the receiver a chance to make a play. I think we need a WR who is good at making plays on deep throws.

 

[oaken1]

Exactly!

Completing a pass where the ball is thrown 40 or 50 yards in the air is much more dependent on the WR vs. on an 8-yard out route.

Kirk could make it work. DHop could make it work. But Hollywood and Moore, while fast enough, don't seem to be able to consistently either adjust the ball in the air, or win a 50/50 ball (or they just flat out drop passes sometimes).

A QBs job on a deep ball is to give the receiver a chance to make a play. I think we need a WR who is good at making plays on deep throws.

Just like Brenden Rice

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Just like Brenden Rice

Hmmm... maybe he'll be there at the bottom of the 3rd round? Looks interesting.

 

[oaken1]

Hmmm... maybe he'll be there at the bottom of the 3rd round? Looks interesting.

Dude might go in the first...no later than mid second

 

[DVontel]

Dude might go in the first...no later than mid second

There’s not a chance in hell he goes 1st round.

 

[oaken1]

There’s not a chance in hell he goes 1st round.

Okay

 

[DVontel]

Okay

Would you know him if he wasn’t Jerry’s son

 

[oaken1]

Would you know him if he wasn’t Jerry’s son

Yeah. I noticed him while watching tape on Caleb...then I dug deeper. Kid is gonna be a solid pro...good X for somebody..pretty certain his stock is gonna jump after the combine

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Dude might go in the first...no later than mid second

Okay so just hypothetically, if he's there when we pick at #66 you are sprinting up to the podium, got it.

 

[oaken1]

Okay so just hypothetically, if he's there when we pick at #66 you are sprinting up to the podium, got it.

Pending how the draft goes hell yeah... Grab Harrison at 4, Murphy at 25 ...yeah... If Rice is on the board at 66 I wouldn't hesitate to make that pick

 

[FB94]

FA Will help clarify a lot of this. Hope MO feels the momentum they are building and accelerates the rebuild as much as possible in a smart strategic way

 

[Krangodnzr]

Dude might go in the first...no later than mid second

I don't see it. He's probably WR 12.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don’t think Joe Thomas, as great as he was, ever played in a playoff game.

Other than for QBs, I think that’s a terrible criteria for determining the ability and value of a player in a team sport where the player played for an awful franchise.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Damn, I didn’t think it would be this early for folks to overthink MHJR. I would have predicted that March would’ve been the time.

It’s the mental gymnastics prework for when we don’t end up with him. Allows them to look back and say “I didn’t think he was a good fit anyway.”

 

[kerouac9]

Other than for QBs, I think that’s a terrible criteria for determining the ability and value of a player in a team sport where the player played for an awful franchise.

It’s A criteria, but I don’t know if he outweighs or even complicates 10 pro bowls and eight All Pro designations.

 

[BritCard]

There aren't, really though. This is a place where everyone gets caught up in definitional quibbles and our Venn diagrams probably overlap +85% or better.

I'm kind out putting words in @DVontel 's mouth here -- so forgive me if I have this wrong. But, I think he's saying there are only 5-10 teams where Amari Cooper would be the preference over their current #1, all things being equal. Amari Cooper and Courtland Sutton (and probably 2023 vintage DeAndre Hopkins) are #1 receivers on pretty bad passing offenses. They'd all probably be #1 for, like, the Chiefs and Giants, but it's not a big group.

Maybe a better way to put it is they're Tier 3 WRs if you count Justin Jefferson, Ja'Marr Chase, AJ Brown, and a few others as Tier 1 (I usually call this the elite tier, FWIW), then DaVonta Smith, Cooper Kupp, D.J. Moore are on Tier 2 (I usually call these guys "stars").



The preferable scenario for the long-term is we get MHJ and move Paris to LT. I think that balances your roster construction better and allows you to give both second contracts.

I think Alt/Fashnau and PJJ puts you in a real straightjacket down the road when you're thinking about contract extensions (should they both work out).

Man, Amari Cooper was 10th in the league in receiving yards and 3rd in yards per reception. With 5 different QB's, all of which were pretty bad. I mean, Flacco was probably the best QB they started.

Anyone who thinks that isn't WR1 material is high AF.