Frank Vogel Defense

[Covert Rain]

I never thought we'd win a championship with this group but I really expected a lot more from them than we've seen. And the biggest disappointment of all, for me, has been Devin Booker. We all have our ideas but whatever brought this about, this just isn't the same Devin Booker of a few years ago. With that Booker, we'd be a pretty good team - not good enough to win it all but a threat to win most nights.

The one year we had a ton of stuff fall in our favor to get to the finals. Booker is not the put his foot on your throat closer type player and never will be. He is a dynamic scorer and most nights should give you a shot at winning. He is not a #1 player on a title team. This year has been so weird though. A bunch of people out of the gate were asking what is wrong with Booker.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I never thought we'd win a championship with this group but I really expected a lot more from them than we've seen. And the biggest disappointment of all, for me, has been Devin Booker. We all have our ideas but whatever brought this about, this just isn't the same Devin Booker of a few years ago. With that Booker, we'd be a pretty good team - not good enough to win it all but a threat to win most nights.

Yeah… I was asked a couple weeks ago what made me change my mind about the KD Trade and the reasoning was two main things that have become crystal clear to me.

KD wasn’t the player he used to be and Devin Booker never became the player I hoped he could be.

It’s that simple, for me.

 

[95pro]

I don't think so. I believe Ishbia listened to his new best friend and overruled JJ. But that's simply my opinion, I have no more information on it than you do. Maybe one day we'll find out the real story.

I’m with you on this. How much input from his friend idk. But I think JJ was doing okay building with youth and picks, not great but not terrible, being conservative. And i think Ishbia didn’t think all this through thinking money was no object and made the KD trade.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah… I was asked a couple weeks ago what made me change my mind about the KD Trade and the reasoning was two main things that have become crystal clear to me.

KD wasn’t the player he used to be and Devin Booker never became the player I hoped he could be.

It’s that simple, for me.

Booker outplayed KD in their first postseason together. What I think did him in how he had his team hijacked and was pushed off ball, again. The Suns trading Booker's close friends repeatedly were gut punches but moving CP3, who had become his mentor, for Beal said he wasn't respected here as an All-NBA SG. I know Beal was cheap but it didn't make sense from a team building standpoint. Even a Jordan Poole trade would have made more sense and Golden State was desperate to move him, as seen by off loading him for CP3. Sure, it was an upgrade in talent but we still hadn't developed a system, had a coach in place, or been in position to overlook chemistry for the sake of talent.

 

[Yuma]

I feel the problem with Vogel was a defensive coach with offense skilled players trying to mold them into a defense oriented team. He literally was trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

[1982baskets]

I feel the problem with Vogel was a defensive coach with offense skilled players trying to mold them into a defense oriented team. He literally was trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

Exactly and this was the same problem he ran into with the Lakers. They were a title team and then they traded for a big 3 concept with Westbrook and it all went to crap. Vogel is definitely a coach you bring in if you have defensive players.

The thing is he did extract defense. That's my point. The Suns last year got only 20 games out of the big3 and still ended up winning 49 games. Their defense was a lot better than this year. Last year the Suns are 13 in the NBA on defense. This year they are 24. Now imagine if you actually had a GM that knew he hired a defensive coach and gave him some elite rim protection (Nurkic is not that guy) and some defense on the ball at the point. Around the big 3. Sure even then the big 3 likely does not deliver you a ring because they never stay healthy enough and I'm not sure any of the 3 are really are a #1(leader) on a title team. However if you hire a coach give him the players his system needs.

We had Ayton, we had some pieces to move. We turned that into Beal, Nurk and Grayson. Those pieces won't make you a defensive powerhouse around KD/Booker. This is just a bad run FO. Instead of making some moves for youth and athleticism we trade for more mid career slow players like O'Neale. We just didn't roster build around KD/Book properly. Especially if you added Beal, you needed much better defensive and athletic players than we got. Then we blamed Vogel, and hoped Bud would be the savior. Crap management.

 

[elindholm]

Exactly and this was the same problem he ran into with the Lakers. They were a title team and then they traded for a big 3 concept with Westbrook and it all went to crap. Vogel is definitely a coach you bring in if you have defensive players.

The thing is he did extract defense. That's my point. The Suns last year got only 20 games out of the big3 and still ended up winning 49 games. Their defense was a lot better than this year. Last year the Suns are 13 in the NBA on defense. This year they are 24. Now imagine if you actually had a GM that knew he hired a defensive coach and gave him some elite rim protection (Nurkic is not that guy) and some defense on the ball at the point. Around the big 3. Sure even then the big 3 likely does not deliver you a ring because they never stay healthy enough and I'm not sure any of the 3 are really are a #1(leader) on a title team. However if you hire a coach give him the players his system needs.

We had Ayton, we had some pieces to move. We turned that into Beal, Nurk and Grayson. Those pieces won't make you a defensive powerhouse around KD/Booker. This is just a bad run FO. Instead of making some moves for youth and athleticism we trade for more mid career slow players like O'Neale. We just didn't roster build around KD/Book properly. Especially if you added Beal, you needed much better defensive and athletic players than we got. Then we blamed Vogel, and hoped Bud would be the savior. Crap management.

You vastly overestimate the strength of the position the Suns were in. They made the Beal and Nurkic trades because that was all they could get for the players they were trying to move out. No one wanted Ayton or Paul on their contracts, and minimum-level free agents don't provide the kind of impact you are talking about.

 

[Superbone]

You vastly overestimate the strength of the position the Suns were in. They made the Beal and Nurkic trades because that was all they could get for the players they were trying to move out. No one wanted Ayton or Paul on their contracts, and minimum-level free agents don't provide the kind of impact you are talking about.

We would have been much better off keeping Paul than trading him for Beal. Of course, hindsight is 20-20. Beal has been pretty useless for us while Paul, even at his lessened state, would have been much better for this team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We would have been much better off keeping Paul than trading him for Beal. Of course, hindsight is 20-20. Beal has been pretty useless for us while Paul, even at his lessened state, would have been much better for this team.

I think you're right but I don't think it would have changed our fortune very much, we'd just be a little bit better. When we made the deal it was with the understanding that we couldn't win it all without another star level player. Unfortunately, it seemed the only way available for us to acquire a star level player was to gamble on an overpriced injury prone veteran. And like most of our recent rolls of the dice, it came up snake eyes.

 

[Superbone]

I think you're right but I don't think it would have changed our fortune very much, we'd just be a little bit better. When we made the deal it was with the understanding that we couldn't win it all without another star level player. Unfortunately, it seemed the only way available for us to acquire a star level player was to gamble on an overpriced injury prone veteran. And like most of our recent rolls of the dice, it came up snake eyes.

True, we've been on a bad roll lately. Luckily, we got a little reprieve during the draft otherwise we'd be totally broke. I'm very happy with what we got especially considering where we got them in the draft.

 

[clyde2tw]

You vastly overestimate the strength of the position the Suns were in. They made the Beal and Nurkic trades because that was all they could get for the players they were trying to move out. No one wanted Ayton or Paul on their contracts, and minimum-level free agents don't provide the kind of impact you are talking about.

I thought Mavs had interest in Ayton back then and Irvine s&t was an option as they had Duncic as their PG already. But I guess KD had enough with KI's antics back on the Nets.

 

[GatorAZ]

I think you're right but I don't think it would have changed our fortune very much, we'd just be a little bit better. When we made the deal it was with the understanding that we couldn't win it all without another star level player. Unfortunately, it seemed the only way available for us to acquire a star level player was to gamble on an overpriced injury prone veteran. And like most of our recent rolls of the dice, it came up snake eyes.

Yes it would’ve been slightly better just by being under the 2nd apron but still over the cap. CP’s expiring and DA were only only assets at the time of the Beal deal. KD trade will always be the first domino to further dumb moves.