Free Agency 2018

[Raze]

The league has changed in very significant ways since the days of Magic, Isiah, Billups or even Nash. Historical facts such as these have little relevance to today's game IMO.

The NBA has absolutely changed. Namely, the PG position has been completely redefined. They used to be pass first guys who were great leaders and had great handles and great vision in traffic. Now they are guys like James Harden and Russell Westbrook. I mean c'mon. Those guys aren't PGs. Chris Paul, Ben Simmons, and Rondo might be the only true PGs left. (And I can't stand Rondo).

However I do disagree with you that the facts aren't still relevant to today's game (small sample size that it is). Chris Paul has been The Man at PG for over a decade. And what has he gotten for being an ALL WORLD defender, great facilitator, and excellent scorer? Absolutely nothing. He wins you regular season games and solidifies an offense. What he can't get you is playoff championships. And that's in THIS era.

I'll predict a bit and suggest that Ben Simmons won't win anything barring someone on his team becoming a superstar. Like Paul, he'll win you regular season games, but he almost offers nothing in the postseason (and will somebody PLEASE teach that man to shoot!!!) He'll be plagued with early playoff exits his entire career. (That all goes out the window if Lebron shows up on his doorstep).

Rondo, the absolute mess that he was, used to ALSO win you regular season games and stabilize an Offense. But he couldn't win you post season championships (And no one should dare bring up Boston's championships. That dude road 3 HOF's coat tails all the way to victory. Elliot Perry could have won with those 3).

My point is that history isn't kind in it's projections for Trae Young and championships. He'll have to be next to some amazing players who can take over a game in the playoffs. He will HAVE to be next to a SG who can defend. And he'll have to more than likely be the 2nd or even 3rd best player on his team. If Chris Paul couldn't do it with one or two "stars", Trae Young sure as heck can't.

 

[AzStevenCal]

My point is that history isn't kind in it's projections for Trae Young and championships. He'll have to be next to some amazing players who can take over a game in the playoffs. He will HAVE to be next to a SG who can defend. And he'll have to more than likely be the 2nd or even 3rd best player on his team. If Chris Paul couldn't do it with one or two "stars", Trae Young sure as heck can't.

Other than Lebron, this applies to any player in today's NBA. Chris Paul couldn't do it with Houston because he came up lame and even healthy, they were on the wrong side of the talent ledger. Blaming that failure on the point guard or even the Clippers failures on CP3 isn't fair. Only one team can win it all, everyone else comes up short. And that includes teams that are not built around the modern point guard.

The refs today have been instructed to protect the perimeter shooter and the perimeter ball-handler. Between the change in refereeing styles and the evolution of NBA zone defenses, it's now more of a challenge to build around a big man than it is a dominant perimeter player.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think blaming lack of success is fair to Chriss Paul. Put him in the right situation and he would do quite nicely. The Rockets were out manned 3 superstars to 2 when they faced the Warriors in the playoffs. Then, as noted, he got hurt.

 

[overseascardfan]

Chriss's per-game numbers after the All-Star Break last season:

9.7p on .461 shooting (in spite of too many threes, at .291), 6.5r, 1.0a, 1.0b, 0.7s, 1.7to, 2.5pf, 21.8 min

Bender's:

7.2p on .377 shooting (mainly from three, at 0.340), 6.1r, 2.3a, 0.8b, 0.3s, 1.7to, 2.4pf, 30.3 min

I'll grant that neither looked good, but the narrative that Bender has the inside track on Chriss needs to stop. Bender may have the better attitude, and the uptick in his assist numbers is encouraging, but the bottom line is that he's still woefully unproductive. The seven-foot water boy is no closer to being an NBA PF than Chriss is.

There is more to it than just numbers. Bender tries but is just not assertive / aggressive enough, he is skilled he just needs to be less timid out there. Chriss on the other hand is undisciplined and just seems lazy in addition to his poor attitude.

Also, just like Chriss was Watson's favorite, Igor is probably going to favor Bender over Chriss, if Chriss doesn't change his attitude and take the tutelage Kokoskov will try and provide him.

 

[elindholm]

There is more to it than just numbers. Bender tries but is just not assertive / aggressive enough, he is skilled he just needs to be less timid out there. Chriss on the other hand is undisciplined and just seems lazy in addition to his poor attitude.

There is also more to it than the so-called "eye test." I reject the claim that Bender is intrinsically more skilled than Chriss. I also reject the claim that Bender is closer to turning it around than Chriss is. Both, so far, have crippling weaknesses. I see no reason to project that either is more likely than the other to overcome them. In the meantime, however, Chriss's production is quite a bit better.

 

[Mainstreet]

I've seen signs of maturity from Chriss last season. IMO, his upside might be Antonio McDyess. However, I'm not saying Chriss gets there.

 

[Raze]

The debate was whether an All Star PG is needed to win championships. The answer to that is a resounding no. The support is lacking and the evidence for rebuttal is overwhelming. No reason to move the needle.

Also, 365 days ago on this forum I said Chris Paul was a top 5 ALL TIME PG...

...4. Chris Paul. Dude flat out plays D and gets everyone involved. His numbers are amazing. (10 times he was over 2.0 spg. 6 times above 10.0 apg. Compare that to The Glove who only was above 2.0 spg 8 times and NEVER got above 10.0 apg. Nash cleared 10.0 apg 7 times and never sniffed 2.0 spg)...

I took some flack for that. I'm never on the side of "blaming" Chris Paul for anything. Sure, if Chris Paul was on Boston's team with KG, or Kobe's team, or Lebron's team he's going to win a championship. Why in the world would I argue differently.

But can he win a championship on his own? No. Can he win with a "star" like Griffin? No. Can he win with Griffin and D. Jordan? No. Could he have won this year with Harden? No. (Because Harden is a world class choke artist.)

The vast majority of great PGs don't in and of themselves win championships. Like I said before, they win you regular season games and get you to the playoffs. It takes someone else to finish the job.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The debate was whether an All Star PG is needed to win championships. The answer to that is a resounding no. The support is lacking and the evidence for rebuttal is overwhelming. No reason to move the needle.

Also, 365 days ago on this forum I said Chris Paul was a top 5 ALL TIME PG...



I took some flack for that. I'm never on the side of "blaming" Chris Paul for anything. Sure, if Chris Paul was on Boston's team with KG, or Kobe's team, or Lebron's team he's going to win a championship. Why in the world would I argue differently.

But can he win a championship on his own? No. Can he win with a "star" like Griffin? No. Can he win with Griffin and D. Jordan? No. Could he have won this year with Harden? No. (Because Harden is a world class choke artist.)

The vast majority of great PGs don't in and of themselves win championships. Like I said before, they win you regular season games and get you to the playoffs. It takes someone else to finish the job.

Then I withdraw, I didn't realize that was the debate. I thought it was more that point guards were lesser creatures because all those old time teams won it all with mediocre guards.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The NBA has absolutely changed. Namely, the PG position has been completely redefined. They used to be pass first guys who were great leaders and had great handles and great vision in traffic. Now they are guys like James Harden and Russell Westbrook. I mean c'mon. Those guys aren't PGs. Chris Paul, Ben Simmons, and Rondo might be the only true PGs left. (And I can't stand Rondo).

However I do disagree with you that the facts aren't still relevant to today's game (small sample size that it is). Chris Paul has been The Man at PG for over a decade. And what has he gotten for being an ALL WORLD defender, great facilitator, and excellent scorer? Absolutely nothing. He wins you regular season games and solidifies an offense. What he can't get you is playoff championships. And that's in THIS era.

I'll predict a bit and suggest that Ben Simmons won't win anything barring someone on his team becoming a superstar. Like Paul, he'll win you regular season games, but he almost offers nothing in the postseason (and will somebody PLEASE teach that man to shoot!!!) He'll be plagued with early playoff exits his entire career. (That all goes out the window if Lebron shows up on his doorstep).

Rondo, the absolute mess that he was, used to ALSO win you regular season games and stabilize an Offense. But he couldn't win you post season championships (And no one should dare bring up Boston's championships. That dude road 3 HOF's coat tails all the way to victory. Elliot Perry could have won with those 3).

My point is that history isn't kind in it's projections for Trae Young and championships. He'll have to be next to some amazing players who can take over a game in the playoffs. He will HAVE to be next to a SG who can defend. And he'll have to more than likely be the 2nd or even 3rd best player on his team. If Chris Paul couldn't do it with one or two "stars", Trae Young sure as heck can't.

Your analysis is fraught with big gaping holes. Kg never would’ve won without pierce or Allen either. Neither would Allen. Neither would pierce. And rondo always came up HUGE in the playoffs. If your argument is that a pg never SINGLE-HANDEDLY won a championship, yeah you’re right. But otherwise you’re wrong. All those guys you named were INSTRUMENTAL in winning championships. Their teams wouldn’t have won championships without them.

 

[Hoop Head]

Then I withdraw, I didn't realize that was the debate. I thought it was more that point guards were lesser creatures because all those old time teams won it all with mediocre guards.

No, the reason I brought it up in the first place was with what we have at 3 other positions, Booker, Jackson, and after the draft Ayton, we should be loaded on talent and not be that concerned with spending a fortune in assets to bring in a stud PG to round out the team. That would be unnecessary to turn them into a contender. It may speed up the playoff race for this team but it's not necessary to go after a top PG or a borderline All-Star like Kemba right away to get the Suns back into contention. Someone like Payton or whatever we can find in this crop of FA's and potential trade partners should suffice, we don't need to pay a premium for someone to man the PG position, now or in the future, if we hope to compete with those 3 players as our "Big 3".

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There is also more to it than the so-called "eye test." I reject the claim that Bender is intrinsically more skilled than Chriss. I also reject the claim that Bender is closer to turning it around than Chriss is. Both, so far, have crippling weaknesses. I see no reason to project that either is more likely than the other to overcome them. In the meantime, however, Chriss's production is quite a bit better.

I think you’re misusing a word. I think there’s little doubt bender is more “skilled.” He’s a better 3 point shooter, ball handler and passer. Those are skills. Chriss is more naturally “gifted.” Neither makes one better than the other. Both have to overcome personality defects. Just different defects.

My hope is Chriss matures out of his and bender is tutored out of his by Igor. But not holding breath on either.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The debate was whether an All Star PG is needed to win championships. The answer to that is a resounding no. The support is lacking and the evidence for rebuttal is overwhelming. No reason to move the needle.

Also, 365 days ago on this forum I said Chris Paul was a top 5 ALL TIME PG...



I took some flack for that. I'm never on the side of "blaming" Chris Paul for anything. Sure, if Chris Paul was on Boston's team with KG, or Kobe's team, or Lebron's team he's going to win a championship. Why in the world would I argue differently.

But can he win a championship on his own? No. Can he win with a "star" like Griffin? No. Can he win with Griffin and D. Jordan? No. Could he have won this year with Harden? No. (Because Harden is a world class choke artist.)

The vast majority of great PGs don't in and of themselves win championships. Like I said before, they win you regular season games and get you to the playoffs. It takes someone else to finish the job.

If he argument is “needed” then the answer is no. But that’s a dumb argument because I could say an all star 2 guard is not “needed” or an all star center is not “needed” or an all star power forward is not “needed” or an all star small forward is not “needed.” The only thing that’s needed is multiple star players that are clutch.

Duncan couldn’t have won without Parker. Those pistons teams surely couldn’t have won without “Mr. Bigshot” or Isaiah. And the warriors and Cavs wouldn’t have won any championships without kyrie or Curry. But not BECAUSE they’re pgs, but because they are the great players that had to be on a team with other great players to win a championship.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Then I withdraw, I didn't realize that was the debate. I thought it was more that point guards were lesser creatures because all those old time teams won it all with mediocre guards.

That’s what i thought he was arguing too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No, the reason I brought it up in the first place was with what we have at 3 other positions, Booker, Jackson, and after the draft Ayton, we should be loaded on talent and not be that concerned with spending a fortune in assets to bring in a stud PG to round out the team. That would be unnecessary to turn them into a contender. It may speed up the playoff race for this team but it's not necessary to go after a top PG or a borderline All-Star like Kemba right away to get the Suns back into contention. Someone like Payton or whatever we can find in this crop of FA's and potential trade partners should suffice, we don't need to pay a premium for someone to man the PG position, now or in the future, if we hope to compete with those 3 players as our "Big 3".

But if you can have a big four, why not have a big four? It worked for the warriors. You just want to say, “nah we’re content to just stay at big 3 level talent? Or are you somehow trying to argue that adding a big fourth who is a pg would somehow LESSEN the chances at the championship?!? I’ll be honest I see zero logic in your recent line of argumentation.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think we are getting caught up in position titles. It takes two or more stars to win championships these days with the possible exception of Lebron. If the star happens to be a point guard, they count.

Stephen Curry has multiple skills, especially shooting and running a team. He is termed a PG. I have no doubt if Curry wanted to be a pure point guard he could be this.

Nash and Stockton might have been better off taking more shots and giving less assists.

 

[Hoop Head]

But if you can have a big four, why not have a big four? It worked for the warriors. You just want to say, “nah we’re content to just stay at big 3 level talent? Or are you somehow trying to argue that adding a big fourth who is a pg would somehow LESSEN the chances at the championship?!? I’ll be honest I see zero logic in your recent line of argumentation.

If we can make a true big 4, then let's make a big 4, but let's not sell our future to get a guy who may or may not be a real difference maker at PG. Who in the league right now would qualify to part of a big 4 with our 3 potential stars for the next few years? What PG is out there? Kyrie? Don't see that happening. Lillard? Unlikely also. Doncic? I wouldn't bet all of our assets he's the 4th star. I don't even think he'd work that great with Booker and Jackson so throwing Ayton in the mix also makes that even less appealing.

 

[Hoop Head]

What's available wouldn't time well with our other stars, guys like Kemba Walker or Jrue Holiday, they're not worth what it would cost and their fit is questionable. It'd be better to wait and make due with what's out there than try to fill our hole at PG with some potential star. Payton should be servicable. I hope Kokoskov can make Knight servicable also.

We won't lose a chance at a title by having a decent PG until or if someone better comes along, then we should go for it. Not trying to solidify the spot now.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If we can make a true big 4, then let's make a big 4, but let's not sell our future to get a guy who may or may not be a real difference maker at PG. Who in the league right now would qualify to part of a big 4 with our 3 potential stars for the next few years? What PG is out there? Kyrie? Don't see that happening. Lillard? Unlikely also. Doncic? I wouldn't bet all of our assets he's the 4th star. I don't even think he'd work that great with Booker and Jackson so throwing Ayton in the mix also makes that even less appealing.

Man I think if Doncic is what he’s billed to be he’d be the PERFECT fit alongside booker, JJ, and Ayton. He’s an ultimate complimentary player. His role would be to be make everyone BETTER.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What's available wouldn't time well with our other stars, guys like Kemba Walker or Jrue Holiday, they're not worth what it would cost and their fit is questionable. It'd be better to wait and make due with what's out there than try to fill our hole at PG with some potential star. Payton should be servicable. I hope Kokoskov can make Knight servicable also.

We won't lose a chance at a title by having a decent PG until or if someone better comes along, then we should go for it. Not trying to solidify the spot now.

This I agree with. Don’t mortgage the future for someone that doesn’t fit our timeline. That’s why I’d trade assets for Doncic and maybe young but likely not jrue or kemba.

 

[Hoop Head]

Man I think if Doncic is what he’s billed to be he’d be the PERFECT fit alongside booker, JJ, and Ayton. He’s an ultimate complimentary player. His role would be to be make everyone BETTER.

And just what makes you so sure of that? His 4-7-4 stat line the other night?

Doncic hasn't proven he's a PG let alone good enough to be a PG in the NBA. A number of people have brought this up over and over, it's conjecture on your part thinking he'll be a PG. No one knows what position he'll play in the NBA! It depends on where he lands, who his teammates are, and what system his coach is running. Kokoskov hasn't even said that Doncic is a PG though. Doncic wasn't the PG on the national team he coached though, so that leaves some question if he'd even use Doncic like that again.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And just what makes you so sure of that? His 4-7-4 stat line the other night?

Doncic hasn't proven he's a PG let alone good enough to be a PG in the NBA. A number of people have brought this up over and over, it's conjecture on your part thinking he'll be a PG. No one knows what position he'll play in the NBA! It depends on where he lands, who his teammates are, and what system his coach is running. Kokoskov hasn't even said that Doncic is a PG though. Doncic wasn't the PG on the national team he coached though, so that leaves some question if he'd even use Doncic like that again.

Maybe you missed the "if"?

 

[Hoop Head]

Maybe you missed the "if"?

Where's the "if" at here, HE WOULD trade all our assets for Doncic, not Kemba or someone that doesn't fit the timeline?

This I agree with. Don’t mortgage the future for someone that doesn’t fit our timeline. That’s why I’d trade assets for Doncic and maybe young but likely not jrue or kemba.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Where's the "if" at here, HE WOULD trade all our assets for Doncic, not Kemba or someone that doesn't fit the timeline?

Here's the line you appeared to be responding to:

Man I think if Doncic is what he’s billed to be he’d be the PERFECT fit alongside booker, JJ, and Ayton.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And just what makes you so sure of that? His 4-7-4 stat line the other night?

Doncic hasn't proven he's a PG let alone good enough to be a PG in the NBA. A number of people have brought this up over and over, it's conjecture on your part thinking he'll be a PG. No one knows what position he'll play in the NBA! It depends on where he lands, who his teammates are, and what system his coach is running. Kokoskov hasn't even said that Doncic is a PG though. Doncic wasn't the PG on the national team he coached though, so that leaves some question if he'd even use Doncic like that again.

First, the phrase “if Doncic is what he’s billed to be” explicitly indicates that I am NOT sure of that. But that doesn’t fit yiur argument.

And I’m not even certain that Igor would play him at the 1. I could see, and I’ve seen it written, that in today’s nba some might play Doncic at the 4 as long as there’s a big center anchor. It’s not his position that would make him a compliment, it’s his much rumored/discussed b-ball IQ and passing prowess that I think could be the great compliment.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Here's the line you appeared to be responding to:

Thank you Steve . . . I’m bewildered at his failure to under to understand any of this.