Gardner Minshew II is Val Kilmer

[TJ]

Not only is it early...... But your assessment is debatable at best.

Gardner is going to get a ton of those ducks picked off soon enough.

extremely early and small sample size, but so far, Minshew is outperforming Murray in:

• Overall rushing (!!!)
• TD:INT ratio
• Completion %
• Substantially less sacks/game

mind you, Gardner wasn’t groomed to be the starter since April like Kyler.

Obviously not even close to the end result, but puts away the “debatable” notion of who’s had a better start to his career so far

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

extremely early and small sample size, but so far, Minshew is outperforming Murray in:

• Overall rushing (!!!)
• TD:INT ratio
• Completion %
• Substantially less sacks/game

mind you, Gardner wasn’t groomed to be the starter since April like Kyler.

Obviously not even close to the end result, but puts away the “debatable” notion of who’s had a better start to his career so far

They are also being asked to do entirely different things as can be seen when simply looking at their pass attempts per game.

Kyler is being asked to be essentially our entire offense so far and to do it behind a pretty porous offensive line.

 

[Vacard]

The opposite can very well be true.

Minshew already has basic fundamentals of the position and has the physical tools to be successful for a long period of time. He’s not in a gimmicky offense and running RPOs, but has the athleticism to run if needed. More importantly, he’s been successful.

Rather than the league figuring him out, I think Minshew has the intelligence and wherewithal to pivot. I can’t say the same about Kyler.

You saying KM doesn’t have the intelligence to be a successful NFL player while he has shown in his very first two games to:
Read defenses
Make the right reads
Change plays at the LOS
Have a competitive spirit to Will his team back
Throw into tight coverage where only the receiver can make the play
Doesn’t force the ball into tight coverage
Is literally carrying this team on his back since he doesn’t have Leonard Fornette as his running back
And is also: top 5 in total passing yards and doing all this with a porous OL where he’s under duress for most of the game and is working with a rookie signal caller who has absoluteLY NO NFL experience.

But here you crowning Menshew who would be awful behind this line and doesn’t know if he can take the punishment. Your reasoning is ridiculous to say the least

 

[TJ]

So you would rather have Minshew than Murray? Absurd.

Who's saying this?

They are also being asked to do entirely different things as can be seen when simply looking at their pass attempts per game.

Kyler is being asked to be essentially our entire offense so far and to do it behind a pretty porous offensive line.

No, they are not. They're both being asked to quarterback and run an offense.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Who's saying this?



No, they are not. They're both being asked to quarterback and run an offense.

The Cards have had almost zero rushing game thus far and are throwing almost 80% of the time.

Kyler is also playing behind a worse offensive line which isn't exactly helping things either.

Sure they are both playing the QB position, but that alone is an oversimplification.

 

[SoonerLou]

The Cards have had almost zero rushing game thus far and are throwing almost 80% of the time.

Kyler is also playing behind a worse offensive line which isn't exactly helping things either.

Sure they are both playing the QB position, but that alone is an oversimplification.

Eh thats not the argument to make. Fournette was in the negative yesterday until that big run.

A more valid point would be that teams are putting 8 or even 9 in the box against the Jags which makes for easier throws outta play action.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Eh thats not the argument to make. Fournette was in the negative yesterday until that big run.

A more valid point would be that teams are putting 8 or even 9 in the box against the Jags which makes for easier throws outta play action.

Maybe they weren't very successful with their attempts, but they were still attempting to run. That at least forces the defense to account for it.

Had they simply abandoned the run once it was getting shut down the defense simply would have started to key in on the pass more and started taking that away.

Murray thus far has gotten almost no help from the run game and that includes even attempting to run the ball (especially week 2). That means teams almost never play the run against us and are always playing the pass.

 

[DVontel]

Minshew has shown more than Rosen did last year.

 

[TJ]

You saying KM doesn’t have the intelligence to be a successful NFL player while he has shown in his very first two games to:
Read defenses
Make the right reads
Change plays at the LOS
Have a competitive spirit to Will his team back
Throw into tight coverage where only the receiver can make the play
Doesn’t force the ball into tight coverage
Is literally carrying this team on his back since he doesn’t have Leonard Fornette as his running back
And is also: top 5 in total passing yards and doing all this with a porous OL where he’s under duress for most of the game and is working with a rookie signal caller who has absoluteLY NO NFL experience.

But here you crowning Menshew who would be awful behind this line and doesn’t know if he can take the punishment. Your reasoning is ridiculous to say the least

I read your anecdotes and they still don’t explain away why Minshew is outperforming Murray in almost every rate-based statistical category. I didn’t even mention that Murray has a higher % of uncatchable balls thrown. If you want to call the statistical analysis “ridiculous,” that’s your prerogative, but the numbers don’t lie. Of course, things can (and likely will) change over the course of time, but this is our current baseline.

I’m “crowning” Minshew for what he’s done so far. He’s far exceeded his draft position and there’s little available evidence that he’s going to regress.

meanwhile, the narrative on Kliff/Kyler has always been that defenses will figure out the offense by about the first quarter of the season once there’s actual game film. Seems like they’ve figured it out earlier than anticipated. It’s up to them to pivot.

BTW - Fournette had negative rushing yards prior to a 69 yard run in the 4th. He didn’t help Minshew at all last night.

The Cards have had almost zero rushing game thus far and are throwing almost 80% of the time.

Kyler is also playing behind a worse offensive line which isn't exactly helping things either.

Sure they are both playing the QB position, but that alone is an oversimplification.

Respectfully disagree. I don’t subscribe to that notion. Minshew isn’t Trent Dilfer, who was asked to manage the game and let the running back and defense win the ball game. Minshew is asked to push the ball downfield and score points, just like Murray. Minshew was a stupid drop by Westbrook on a perfect end zone fade pass from having 3 TD passes last night.

 

[TJ]

Minshew has shown more than Rosen did last year.

Yes, he has

 

[Dante]

It's early but Minshew is looking good and it looks like K1 has competition for OROY now with both GM and Hollywood balling out.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Respectfully disagree. I don’t subscribe to that notion. Minshew isn’t Trent Dilfer, who was asked to manage the game and let the running back and defense win the ball game. Minshew is asked to push the ball downfield and score points, just like Murray. Minshew was a stupid drop by Westbrook on a perfect end zone fade pass from having 3 TD passes last night.

I'm not arguing that Minshew is being babied or isn't being asked to make any tough throws. I am simply stating that there is a difference between what he is being asked to do and what Kyler is being asked to do.

Kyler is orchestrating the entire offense on every play and is being asked to throw on almost 80% of downs. This is with zero run game and poor pass blocking.

They have also had the misfortune of a defense that has allowed teams to carve them up in the first half of games and thus Kyler is playing from behind in every game (yes it would help to get some offensive TDs early in the game as well in that regard).

Ultimately I am not arguing that Minshew hasn't been impressive or even that he has or hasn't been more impressive than Murray. What I think is almost impossible to do is compare their stats at this point as like I said the circumstances are very different.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I read your anecdotes and they still don’t explain away why Minshew is outperforming Murray in almost every rate-based statistical category. I didn’t even mention that Murray has a higher % of uncatchable balls thrown. If you want to call the statistical analysis “ridiculous,” that’s your prerogative, but the numbers don’t lie. Of course, things can (and likely will) change over the course of time, but this is our current baseline.

I’m “crowning” Minshew for what he’s done so far. He’s far exceeded his draft position and there’s little available evidence that he’s going to regress.

meanwhile, the narrative on Kliff/Kyler has always been that defenses will figure out the offense by about the first quarter of the season once there’s actual game film. Seems like they’ve figured it out earlier than anticipated. It’s up to them to pivot.

BTW - Fournette had negative rushing yards prior to a 69 yard run in the 4th. He didn’t help Minshew at all last night.



Respectfully disagree. I don’t subscribe to that notion. Minshew isn’t Trent Dilfer, who was asked to manage the game and let the running back and defense win the ball game. Minshew is asked to push the ball downfield and score points, just like Murray. Minshew was a stupid drop by Westbrook on a perfect end zone fade pass from having 3 TD passes last night.

I would say that

1) Minshew is very experienced. He played a ton in college.

2) Better supporting cast. Jacksonville is a much more veteran team. Plugging in an experienced, rookie QB isnt hurting them too much.

 

[juza76]

Minshew didn't score high at wonderlic test?
I heard many reporting about him high ceiling back up QB, not adequate arm strength to play in the NFL

 

[jf-08]

Jacksonville has a very good defense to help put the offense in good positions to succeed.

 

[BigRedRage]

can we stop having 10 page threads about is murray is better than x qb

 

[Dr. Jones]

The opposite can very well be true.

Minshew already has basic fundamentals of the position and has the physical tools to be successful for a long period of time. He’s not in a gimmicky offense and running RPOs, but has the athleticism to run if needed. More importantly, he’s been successful.

Rather than the league figuring him out, I think Minshew has the intelligence and wherewithal to pivot. I can’t say the same about Kyler.

extremely early and small sample size, but so far, Minshew is outperforming Murray in:

• Overall rushing (!!!)
• TD:INT ratio
• Completion %
• Substantially less sacks/game

mind you, Gardner wasn’t groomed to be the starter since April like Kyler.

Obviously not even close to the end result, but puts away the “debatable” notion of who’s had a better start to his career so far

All I can say is..... Woah.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Minshew has shown more than Rosen did last year.

This..... I can agree with

 

[Russ Smith]

Eh thats not the argument to make. Fournette was in the negative yesterday until that big run.

A more valid point would be that teams are putting 8 or even 9 in the box against the Jags which makes for easier throws outta play action.

True and I didn't watch the whole game but the part I did watch, they had 7 or 8 in the box pretty regularly which makes it easier on the QB to throw as you said. It also actually led to the long run they had only 8 in the box but 2 guys were coming up on the snap, when he got through the first line there was nobody back there. I'm actually surprised the guy caught him from behind Fournette is really fast, has had some very long runs in the NFL including a 90 yarder.

The first TD was entirely because of Fournette, Minshew made a great fake, the DB bought it and came up and the TE was wide open. Great fake but if you don't have a run threat it doesnt' work. The 2nd one was a great throw by Minshew.

It's too early to be sure, he's short but taller than Murray, he is not a great athlete but seems to really have good footwork he obviously didn't face the same defense Mariotta did but the way he moved in the pocket and kept his eyes downfield was impressive, MM kept basically walking up into pass rushers although admittedly Jax had a nice interior pass rush.

Some guys just get it, so far Minshew looks like he might be one of those guys. The thing is before WSU he didn't even complete 60% of his passes at E Carolina. So there is some reason to expect him to regress to the mean. He doesn't have a great arm but he seems to get that and is careful where he puts the ball, again that 2nd td pass was a GREAT throw, perfectly placed if the WR can't catch it nobody can.

He's very impressive so far he seems to really have an idea what he's doing back there. They were going to win anyways but that 3rd long out throw that iced the game last night that was a really impressive throw.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Minshew is doing just fine for the Jags but anyone here would be hard press to find a national consensus which would take him over Kyler. This forum really has become a personal whack job for people being more interested about their own opinion/ego than the Cardinals, where people want to argue at any opportunity to suggest Kyler is deficient no matter how subtle. I'm totally down with critiquing what he has to improve on but he has shown absolutely nothing this early to throw darts at him not being a franchise QB... and actually has shown quite to the contrary

 

[Dr. Jones]

Minshew is doing just fine for the Jags but anyone here would be hard press to find a national consensus which would take him over Kyler. This forum really has become a personal whack job for people being more interested about their own opinion/ego than the Cardinals, where people want to argue at any opportunity to suggest Kyler is deficient no matter how subtle. I'm totally down with critiquing what he has to improve on but he has shown absolutely nothing this early to throw darts at him not being a franchise QB... and actually has shown quite to the contrary

Agreed.

FYI: I wouldn't take Lamar over Kyler.

 

[Brak]

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[Chopper0080]

I find it hilarious that in the face of statistics, people are now stating that the Jags offense is a better foundational system than the Cardinals offense.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I find it hilarious that in the face of statistics, people are now stating that the Jags offense is a better foundational system than the Cardinals offense.

Is anyone making that argument?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

can we stop having 10 page threads about is murray is better than x qb

2 pages for me.