Gary Jones' article on the defense and the draft

[Skkorpion]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=629&Category=cardinals

 

[joeshmo]

A few(well maybe more then a few) things to correct in the article.

1. The charges against Wroten were already dropped.

2. Andra Davis re-signed half way throught the this past season.

3. Pat Watkins is a FS not a SS.

4. Donte Whitner is a SS, Nate Salley was Ohio States FS and someone I think we may have neglected on your list of 2/3 round FS's.

5. Hovan is not a 1 gap DT, he is a 2 Gap DT and that is where he has played in TB and Minny. He isnt big but he is super strong and gets great leverage making him perfect for the role of the 2 gap style.

6. Please explain why Archuleta would be a good center field FS. What has he done to show that he could be a FS, besides get beat while in coverage in STL. When STL toyed with the idea of moving Archi to FS last offseason everyone called Martz and Marmie crazy dumb for even thinking about it, and rightfully so. What has changed.

 

[spanky1]

To add to joeshmo's list:

Julien Petersen is way too risky for his likely price tag. I know of more than one scout who has said that "his skills are dimishing fast" given his achilles tear. He has lost a lot of his speed.

You neglected to mention Will Witherspoon as a W/OLB FA. He'll be a sought after commodity in FA.

Davis and Gillies as our "left side" and the statement that we'd have the best left side in the NFL.....try telling that to Seattle with Jones and Hutchison.

Kai Parham in the 3rd........"if pigs could fly".....same thing with Pat Watkins and Greg Blue.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Have Green or Pendergast announced that we changing how we line-up our DTs?

If not. we are not looking for a two gap DT.

This will be the third off season, that this is discussed to no avail.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

This will be the third off season, that this is discussed to no avail.

No kidding. Our defense is like the Bucs and Colts, a one-gap scheme predicated on the defensive lineman getting by the offensive linemen and not taking up space. If you want fat guys who do nothing except get in the way call up Larry Marmie and he'll bring Barron Tanner and Mao Tosi out of the Arena League for you. Until then, I really don't see us getting a Gabe Watson in the draft or free agency.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not certain why we need a "dominant" NT/over-tackle for this defense. Tons of very good defenses stop run games without "dominant" play from the NT position. If Russell Davis's level of contribution was enough last year, why do we suddenly need a "dominant" guy? To what does that even refer?

The DTs that go in the first rounds are the ones that are large enough to stop the run and perceived to be fast enough to rush the passer. We already have three very solid pass rushers along the defensive line. I don't really see why we should overpay for another question mark at that position when all we really need is a guy with some size and strength. Someone that can spell Davis for 40% of rushing downs. Why should we blow a first-round pick on this?

Only people on this board think that Winston Justic is a Top 15 pick. No one else seems to. The OT class has been very disappointing following the Senior Bowl.

 

[Redrage]

Solid job, you certainly put alot of thought into this.

nitpicks:
1) Eric Winston in the 2nd? I guess that's why it's called a wish list.

2) I wouldn't be living up to my designation as official Ko Simpson booster if I didn't point out that he is decidely better than most of the college free safeties that you mentioned.

3) Why, once again, does eveyone talk about drafting a top tier corner and converting him to corner.

Once again, good work!

 

[kerouac9]

3) Why, once again, does eveyone talk about drafting a top tier corner and converting him to corner.

Because that was the position he was drafted to play?

 

[Snakester]

A few(well maybe more then a few) things to correct in the article.

1. The charges against Wroten were already dropped.

2. Andra Davis re-signed half way throught the this past season.

3. Pat Watkins is a FS not a SS.

4. Donte Whitner is a SS, Nate Salley was Ohio States FS and someone I think we may have neglected on your list of 2/3 round FS's.

5. Hovan is not a 1 gap DT, he is a 2 Gap DT and that is where he has played in TB and Minny. He isnt big but he is super strong and gets great leverage making him perfect for the role of the 2 gap style.

6. Please explain why Archuleta would be a good center field FS. What has he done to show that he could be a FS, besides get beat while in coverage in STL. When STL toyed with the idea of moving Archi to FS last offseason everyone called Martz and Marmie crazy dumb for even thinking about it, and rightfully so. What has changed.

1.You got me on Wroten. I have not read anywhere that his charges were dropped.

2. Andra Davis was still listed as a free agent when I looked him up. My bad for not doing a little more research.

3. You are correct. He did play free safety for Fla. State. I had marked him down on my sheet as a strong safety because I thought he would be a better fit there. One reason was because of his height 6-4.

4. Your right.

5. I disagree. I just watched a game with Hovan and he is not a two-gap type of DT. He shoots the gap and tries to get in the backfield just as fast as he can.

6. I was trying to find anyone worth getting in free agency that might be able to do a decent job at free safety. There isn't squat to choose from. At least Archuleta is decent in zone coverage and will hit receivers hard that come over the middle. Plus he's got five years in the NFL now. I'm not saying the guy would be a pro-bowler. I was just looking at what was out there and I couldn't find much.

7. I should have done my homework a little more on the safeties. The majority of player reviews that I have done so far have been on offensive and defensive linemen for the draft. Those are what my next articles are on and the majority of my time has been spent going over game film on them.

 

[joeshmo]

One reason was because of his height 6-4.

Watkins is actually 6-4 1/4 according to offical senior bowl weigh ins. But at the same time he was also weighed in at 205 lbs and described as really skinny. Which i would have to agree especially at a little over 6-4. He says tht he wants to add another 5 lbs before the combine. He has Long arms(longest out of all the DB's at the combine and longer then most ol and DL who are taller then him), fast, speedy. But will have to get to 215 lbs at the least before I would think of him as a full time starter as a FS. I like the kid a lot and would love to take him in the 3rd round and slowly work him up to 215 lbs during offseason workouts.

 

[Snakester]

To add to joeshmo's list:

Julien Petersen is way too risky for his likely price tag. I know of more than one scout who has said that "his skills are dimishing fast" given his achilles tear. He has lost a lot of his speed.

You neglected to mention Will Witherspoon as a W/OLB FA. He'll be a sought after commodity in FA.

Davis and Gillies as our "left side" and the statement that we'd have the best left side in the NFL.....try telling that to Seattle with Jones and Hutchison.

Kai Parham in the 3rd........"if pigs could fly".....same thing with Pat Watkins and Greg Blue.

Like I was saying in the article, the only reason I mentioned Peterson and Arrington was because I didn't see the Cardinals going after another average type linebacker like Orlando Huff. If they are going to sign someone I would think that it would be a big time player and not just another nobody.

Your right on Witherspoon. He would make a very good weakside linebacker.

As far as Davis and Gilles as our left side. I should have said the best runblocking left side in football. I would love to see us have both of them starting for us. They would not be as good as Jones and Hutch pass blocking but I would take them any day over Jones and Hutch run blocking.

Kai Parham to me is a second round player on the field. Where I question whether or not he may be there in the third round is when he gets to the combine. I don't think he will run well or test well in agility, that is where I think there is a chance for him to drop to the third round. Like I said in my article, I think it will depend on how he does at the combine whether he is drafted in the second or the third. Personally I don't care what he does at the combine, the guy can play and thats all I care about.

Right now everything that I have been reading and what I heard from the senior bowl has Blue and Watkins slipping. They were second rounders at best before the senior bowl. We'll see how they do at the combine.

 

[Snakester]

Watkins is actually 6-4 1/4 according to offical senior bowl weigh ins. But at the same time he was also weighed in at 205 lbs and described as really skinny. Which i would have to agree especially at a little over 6-4. He says tht he wants to add another 5 lbs before the combine. He has Long arms(longest out of all the DB's at the combine and longer then most ol and DL who are taller then him), fast, speedy. But will have to get to 215 lbs at the least before I would think of him as a full time starter as a FS. I like the kid a lot and would love to take him in the 3rd round and slowly work him up to 215 lbs during offseason workouts.

The third round sounds good to me. I have watched him play, but I have not gotten around to studying his play as of yet. Other than O and D-linemen I have mostly gone over guys I thought might go in the first round. It will be at least a couple of weeks before I start going over tape on safeties.

 

[Snakester]

Solid job, you certainly put alot of thought into this.

nitpicks:
1) Eric Winston in the 2nd? I guess that's why it's called a wish list.

2) I wouldn't be living up to my designation as official Ko Simpson booster if I didn't point out that he is decidely better than most of the college free safeties that you mentioned.

3) Why, once again, does eveyone talk about drafting a top tier corner and converting him to corner.

Once again, good work!

Thanks.
1. I like Eric Winston and would like to see us draft him. Because he didn't have a great senior bowl I think it knocked him into the second round. Of course he could make things up doing well at the combine.

2. On my sheet I had Ko Simpson down as a strong safety, plus most everything that I've been reading has him going in the second half of the first round so I didn't see us taking him in the first and he would already be taken before we drafted in the second. That's why I didn't mention him.

3. I'm guessing what you mean is about what I said concerning Jimmy Williams. Williams used to play the safety position before moving over to cornerback. He's very tall for a corner listed at 6-3 216. His size is more like a safety than a corner, plus we need a free safety that is why I suggested it.

 

[Snakester]

I'm not certain why we need a "dominant" NT/over-tackle for this defense. Tons of very good defenses stop run games without "dominant" play from the NT position. If Russell Davis's level of contribution was enough last year, why do we suddenly need a "dominant" guy? To what does that even refer?

The DTs that go in the first rounds are the ones that are large enough to stop the run and perceived to be fast enough to rush the passer. We already have three very solid pass rushers along the defensive line. I don't really see why we should overpay for another question mark at that position when all we really need is a guy with some size and strength. Someone that can spell Davis for 40% of rushing downs. Why should we blow a first-round pick on this?

Only people on this board think that Winston Justic is a Top 15 pick. No one else seems to. The OT class has been very disappointing following the Senior Bowl.

I personally don't like to see our defensive line tossed around inside and pushed out of the way like they were this past season. I would like to see us with a DT that can take on two offensive linemen and push them back to the quarterback or toss a side one of them to make the tackle.

As far as Winston Justice, not everybody is going to agree. I watched alot of game film on him and he is a top 15 pick to me. Just like D'Brickashaw Ferguson looks like a top 15 pick. Nobody really knows exactly where these guys will be drafted, but I think both will be first rounders.

 

[Redsz]

I don't know about anyone else - but I refer to the 'NT' as a way to identify the difference between the two DT's responsibilitys in the defensive scheme. It's alot easier to type 'NT' than 'the DT that lines up in the slant technique'.

We do need to sign or draft a DT, though. And while White Fox did a solid job as a spot starter. We do need an upgrade there. And Green and Pendergast have said as much.

I'm really not sure where this love for Russell Davis comes from. In 04' we where absolutley lousy at stopping the run. And often Davis tackles would come 5 yds up field rather than at the LOS. Maybe he got worn down and would be more effective in rotation. But from what I saw, Moore and Kolo where far more effective than Davis was last year.

The guy doesn't need to be HUGE. But we do need to sign someone who has great leverage and is hard to move.

 

[kerouac9]

I personally don't like to see our defensive line tossed around inside and pushed out of the way like they were this past season. I would like to see us with a DT that can take on two offensive linemen and push them back to the quarterback or toss a side one of them to make the tackle.

But you don't pay NTs to rush the quarterback. Especially not in this defensive design. Russell Davis did all right in his role two years ago. The reason that you might not have liked what happened last season is because he didn't play at all.

Maybe you're into laying out seven-digit bonuses to guys that are basically going to occupy blockers--that are supposed to occupy blockers, but the reason that Ngata and Watson are going to go high is because they rush the passer. If you want a guy to develop into a Pat Williams or Ted Washington, they can be found in the middle rounds, and are every year.

As for Winston Justice, his name doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with Ferguson, who is one of the top 4 players in the draft. You're the only one who thinks that Justice has a Top 10 grade. That's not "not everyone is going to agree", that's being an outlier.

 

[jstadvl]

You DO pay NT's to get push and make tackles at the line though. THAT I think is his point. We don't have a push back nito the QB type of NT.

 

[spanky1]

I don't know about anyone else - but I refer to the 'NT' as a way to identify the difference between the two DT's responsibilitys in the defensive scheme. It's alot easier to type 'NT' than 'the DT that lines up in the slant technique'.

We do need to sign or draft a DT, though. And while White Fox did a solid job as a spot starter. We do need an upgrade there. And Green and Pendergast have said as much.

I'm really not sure where this love for Russell Davis comes from. In 04' we where absolutley lousy at stopping the run. And often Davis tackles would come 5 yds up field rather than at the LOS. Maybe he got worn down and would be more effective in rotation. But from what I saw, Moore and Kolo where far more effective than Davis was last year.

The guy doesn't need to be HUGE. But we do need to sign someone who has great leverage and is hard to move.

Who is White Fox?

 

[JeffGollin]

1. The charges against Wroten were already dropped.
Source of your info on Wroten - I've been watching for more news and hadn't seen any.

I see a lot of backtracking on this thread regarding the need for a big space-eating NT. Kind of reminds me of the defense of the Joe Wolf and James Dexter offensive line many moons ago.

All I know is what I see. We've traditionally had trouble defending runs between the tackle - even when we're successful early, our defenders tend to wear down.

For a brief spell (when Russell Davis started playing at a higher level and gave us a stouter presence at NT) we did better at stopping the run and Darnell Dockett's level of play was higher. When Davis went down, we struggled a bit, and Darnell didn't perform as well.

I was saying it 10 - 15 years ago, and I'll continue to say it: "If we remain in denial about (a) our offensive line and (b) NT and MLB- we will continue to struggle as a football team.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Who is White Fox?

K-PAC.... (Just to further confuse...)

 

[Redsz]

White fox = Ross Kolo.

It's a nickname thought up by the team. He wanted to be called the 'White Rhino'. But it didn't stick with the rest of the team. I thought it was pretty funny considering that he hates being called 'white fox'.

 

[joeshmo]

1. The charges against Wroten were already dropped.
Source of your info on Wroten - I've been watching for more news and hadn't seen any.

NCAA | Police and Courts: C. Wroten
Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:51:52 -0800

The Daily Enterprise reports Fourth District Attorney Jerry Jones announced he has dismissed the felony drug charges against LSU DT Claude Wroten. He was arrested Jan. 4 by Sterlington police and charged after a routine traffic stop with possession of marijuana with intent to distribute. Officers allege Wroten had two bags of marijuana in his car and more than $3,200 in cash in his wallet.

 

[joeshmo]

You're the only one who thinks that Justice has a Top 10 grade. That's not "not everyone is going to agree", that's being an outlier.

Who is being an outlier?

He isnt the only one. I have seen a fews mocks and scouting prognosticators have Winston as the #2 OT behind Ferguson and being drafted in the top 15.

 

[CardLogic]

White fox = Ross Kolo.

It's a nickname thought up by the team. He wanted to be called the 'White Rhino'. But it didn't stick with the rest of the team. I thought it was pretty funny considering that he hates being called 'white fox'.

Given your signature I am surprised that you didn't know that the "White Fox" nickname for Kolodziej originated with Ron Wolfley, the Cardinals broadcasting color announcer. Rhino was suggested to Wolfley by Kolodziej as a tounge-in-cheek remark during a radio interview.

Wolfley cracks me up... He and Pasch are a great team!!!

 

[ARZCardinals]

Your article is DEAD ON!

I couldn't have said it better.

That would be the dream scenario re: your draft and FA pick up list.

only ? is why not use Sheldon for PR and KR. He lead the nation for a reason and it wasn't luck. He's got the skill and ability to make the position IMO.