Gary Jones' article on the defense and the draft

[john h]

Have Green or Pendergast announced that we changing how we line-up our DTs?

If not. we are not looking for a two gap DT.

This will be the third off season, that this is discussed to no avail.

This is ticky but I really do not know just how much weight the pros put on the Senior Bowl. This is just one game. I do not see players rising and falling over one game. A great player may have an off day or a so so player may play over his head. I have read the scouts give more weight to the week of practice than the game. As to the meat of your article who am I to challenge you. All I know is what I see on TV and read about.

 

[jstadvl]

Snakester

I may have missed it, but, I know you addressed areas that are of concern to me also. However, I'm of a mind that after Rolle and Green, we really don't have a "killer" CB. I think that needs to be adressed as well.

 

[joeshmo]

I may have missed it, but, I know you addressed areas that are of concern to me also. However, I'm of a mind that after Rolle and Green, we really don't have a "killer" CB. I think that needs to be adressed as well.

We are 3 deep with Rolle, Macklin and Green.

 

[jstadvl]

I don't think Macklin is an answer AND why not have a stud for the other side? Most guys like to play right or left.
I think Makcklin is decent but not killer.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't think Macklin is an answer AND why not have a stud for the other side? Most guys like to play right or left.
I think Makcklin is decent but not killer.

Name another team that's set up for four years of very good CB play on each side. Slot CBs are a dime a dozen. If the Cards can keep Macklin after this year, they'll have one of the best nickel secondaries in the NFL.

 

[kerouac9]

Who is being an outlier?

He isnt the only one. I have seen a fews mocks and scouting prognosticators have Winston as the #2 OT behind Ferguson and being drafted in the top 15.

Whose? I won't quibble with being the #2 OT, but who has him in the Top 15, much less the Top 10? The Huddle Report has him at #26, behind Marcus McNeill. ESPN Insider has him ranked behind McNeill, as well. Scouts, Inc. has him at #15. Kiper has him at #19. NFLDraftBlitz.com has him at #20. That sounds like an outlier to me.

 

[jstadvl]

I don't have to NAME anything. I'm giving my thoughts on what I see as a need. Accept it or not. This isn't "prove your case" time. It's thought and speculation. You don't think having another "shut down" corner would be beneficial? Macklin got burned alot last year. Whatever the other variables were. If you could get someone like that you wouldn't take them?
Kind of like the NT, you don't want someone that gets push in the center of the line to close off the QB's stepping up or make the tackle at the LOS?
Gimme a break!

 

[Snakester]

But you don't pay NTs to rush the quarterback. Especially not in this defensive design. Russell Davis did all right in his role two years ago. The reason that you might not have liked what happened last season is because he didn't play at all.

Maybe you're into laying out seven-digit bonuses to guys that are basically going to occupy blockers--that are supposed to occupy blockers, but the reason that Ngata and Watson are going to go high is because they rush the passer. If you want a guy to develop into a Pat Williams or Ted Washington, they can be found in the middle rounds, and are every year.

As for Winston Justice, his name doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with Ferguson, who is one of the top 4 players in the draft. You're the only one who thinks that Justice has a Top 10 grade. That's not "not everyone is going to agree", that's being an outlier.

I know that Russell Davis only played in like the first four games before he was injured for the rest of the year. I look at Davis as a decent player and nothing more. I think we need to bring in another DT whether it's in free agency or the draft that has more upside than the players that we already have.

As far as Ngata and Watson go. They are exactly the type of players that Pat Williams and Ted Washington are. They are both strong holding there ground and also provide a solid push to the quarterback. They are not by anymeans considered to be pass rushing defensive tackles. Ngata is almost as slow as my grandmother. Watson at least does have better athletic ability and is quicker than Ngata, but I would never consider him to be much of a pass rusher.

As far as Winston is concerned. Me and you don't agree about him at all. I think he is a better athlete than Ferguson is and in the long run may prove to be even better. Right now I consider them to be very close and not that much difference between them. Only time will tell how they both will do in there careers. Everybody has there own opinions. Because Winston played RT instead of left tackle protecting Leinart's blind side, he won't go as high in the draft. Could the Cards trade down to say the 15th spot and still get Winston, there is a good chance. I didn't just predict that Winston would be a top ten pick no matter what. I was looking at one of the positions that I thought the Cardinals needed most for the team. If they were to take him at ten instead of 15 he might be a little bit of a reach but who cares if he is the guy we want and he fills a huge need for us. Regardless of whether we draft Winston or not I think he will go in the first twenty picks of the draft.

Anything can happen between now and the draft. If he tests great at the combine he could move up. If he has some sort of medical problem he could move down. All I can say is I went over six or seven game tapes of him and I have a very high opinion of him as a player. I rate him as a first rounder.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

If we were to trade down with Denver, I think that they would need to throw in a 4th rounder as well for us to make the deal.

 

[Snakester]

Your article is DEAD ON!

I couldn't have said it better.

That would be the dream scenario re: your draft and FA pick up list.

only ? is why not use Sheldon for PR and KR. He lead the nation for a reason and it wasn't luck. He's got the skill and ability to make the position IMO.

Thanks. As far as Sheldon, I didn't think about him. From what I remember off the top of my head from camp was that he competed for the returner positions but was beaten out. I also seem to remember that he wasn't able to win a job as a wide receiver either and that part of the problem was his size. He is listed at 5-8 173 on the official site. The Cards also might have just wanted for him to learn for a year on the practice squad. He does have an impressive college career and maybe he becomes our returner next season. I have not seen enough of him to really say one way or the other. you seem to have more knowledge of him than I do. If he's as good as you say he is then he should win the job this year in training camp.

 

[Snakester]

If we were to trade down with Denver, I think that they would need to throw in a 4th rounder as well for us to make the deal.

That would be nice. You wouldn't here any arguments from me. If you go by the NFL draft value chart we would actually be getting the better deal. Our tenth pick is rated at 1,300 points. Denver's 22 and 29 together are rated at 1,420 points.

 

[Snakester]

I may have missed it, but, I know you addressed areas that are of concern to me also. However, I'm of a mind that after Rolle and Green, we really don't have a "killer" CB. I think that needs to be adressed as well.

I agree. That is why I suggested that we sign Nate Clements in free agency. He is the best cornerback thats out there. I know that we don't have to bring in anyone because we do have Rolle,Green and Macklin, but what if one of them gets hurt. It will happen and then we don't have a good replacement. Because of all the three and four receiver sets that we face against teams I think it would be a good idea to bring in another "Killer" cornerback. I think me and you are in complete agreement on this.

I would love to see our defense with Clement, Rolle, Green and Macklin as our corners.

 

[joeshmo]

I don't have to NAME anything. I'm giving my thoughts on what I see as a need. Accept it or not. This isn't "prove your case" time. It's thought and speculation. You don't think having another "shut down" corner would be beneficial? Macklin got burned alot last year. Whatever the other variables were. If you could get someone like that you wouldn't take them?

Of course I would take a Clements type CB.

As for the bolded part it is completely untrue and not based on anything factual at all, and I have already many times showed it to be not true.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67363&highlight=Macklin

 

[joeshmo]

Whose? I won't quibble with being the #2 OT, but who has him in the Top 15, much less the Top 10? The Huddle Report has him at #26, behind Marcus McNeill. ESPN Insider has him ranked behind McNeill, as well. Scouts, Inc. has him at #15. Kiper has him at #19. NFLDraftBlitz.com has him at #20. That sounds like an outlier to me.

Scouts inc has him at 15 which is hardly a reach to be picked at #10.

Nfldraftcountdown has him at #10. nflreport.com has him at #12.

Kffl.com has him at #10.

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/47067/165

Clayton and a few others from NFL network during the senior bowl coverage week as well think of him as a top 15 pick according to their TV coverage.

Of course their is going to be different opinions on where he will go according to the draft gurus but alas there is a lot of support for Snake on his views including his very own tape review. It is only a difference of opinion, nothing more nothing less, far from being an outlier.

 

[jstadvl]

I'll go there in a bit Joe. Gotta do some work right now.
I did mention other variables along with that though.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

That would be nice. You wouldn't here any arguments from me. If you go by the NFL draft value chart we would actually be getting the better deal. Our tenth pick is rated at 1,300 points. Denver's 22 and 29 together are rated at 1,420 points.

I am curious about the draft value chart, and what it said about our BJ Pace trade of a few years ago.

 

[stretchthefield]

From early rankings there's alot of mid round Free Safeties in the draft, I wouldn't target one before the 4th/5th round.
We have bigger needs along both lines, after we take Ngata, Greenway or White in the first round.

 

[Snakester]

I am curious about the draft value chart, and what it said about our BJ Pace trade of a few years ago.

Believe it or not we got the better end of the deal as far as points go, but the players that were there that we could have drafted were pretty darn good. The picks after us were Byron Leftwich,Jordan Gross,Kevin Williams,Terrell Suggs and Marcus Trufant. Seven defensive linemen were taken before we were able to draft at 17 and 18. The Cardinals just had everything go wrong. They were going to draft d-linemen and when all of them were gone we reached for Calvin Pace and then reached for Bryant Johnson. Both are decent players and will only continue to get better but I still would have liked to stay at six.

As far as the numbers, our number six pick was worth 1,600 points. The Saints two picks were 17 (950 points) and 18 (900 points). Thats a difference of 250 points our way.

 

[duckfallas]

Gabe Watson should be the #1 target for the Cardinals in this draft. They must find a way to get him on their D line next year.

 

[joeshmo]

As far as the numbers, our number six pick was worth 1,600 points. The Saints two picks were 17 (950 points) and 18 (900 points). Thats a difference of 250 points our way.

Dont forget we also swapped 2nd rounds to go from the #5 pick in the 3rd to the 22nd.

That made us lose 80 points in the deal. And history shows that the team trading down should get the better end of the deal by at least 100 points, most of the time.

 

[Stout]

Dont forget we also swapped 2nd rounds to go from the #5 pick in the 3rd to the 22nd.

That made us lose 80 points in the deal. And history shows that the team trading down should get the better end of the deal by at least 100 points, most of the time.

Don't forget we ALSO gave up a fourth rounder. What a friggin' nightmare fiasco that was. My friends were laughing as I SCREAMED at the TV.

 

[BigDavis75]

Of course I would take a Clements type CB.

As for the bolded part it is completely untrue and not based on anything factual at all, and I have already many times showed it to be not true.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67363&highlight=Macklin

I was just about to jump on the Macklin comment, he and Big are two very good players that are always bashed for minor mistakes and to put it plainly....it pisses me off. I do remember that thread though, did you actually go through every play?

 

[jstadvl]

I don't think Macklin is weak. I think he is a valuable asset. but, there were some things, I though position mistakes, that he continually made and it hurt sometimes. Of course, I do realize, that we all have the tendency to watch where the ball goes and remember the "bad plays" and not how very good someone was over the course of the whole year.
Again. other variables play into when and how a CB gets beat at all.
I think it's a position that needs to be addressed, not a do or die situation.
I'm comfortable with them all Macklin included, but as was suggested, we'd be an injury away from CB hell.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm comfortable with them all Macklin included, but as was suggested, we'd be an injury away from CB hell.

Um... we'd be one injury away from being in some trouble in nickel situations, but there aren't many teams with even solid nickel cornerbacks. I think it'd be a good idea to get a second-day cornerback, but it's not among the top 5 priorities for this team. There aren't many teams in the NFL with three starting-caliber cornerbacks. We'd be two injuries away from "CB hell," but so is every team in the NFL.

Unless someone like Antonio Cromartie falls to us in the third round, I wouldn't worry about it until Day 2.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

If we waste a first day draft pick on a cornerback I'm going to go off on one of my anti-Cardinals front office rants shortly after the selection on this board. We were an average pass defense last year with street FA's Lamont Reid and Robert Tate starting games not to mention our best pass rusher was sidelined half the year. I actually can't remember more than a few games during Pendergast's two years where I felt completely felt disgusted by the way our pass defense performed. Unlike say our rush defense, special teams, rush offense and red zone efficiency which tend to be nauseating about just about every week. Those are the things we need to be looking on the first day of the draft not a position where we spent two first day draft picks just last year.