Give Amare MAX or let him walk>

[Errntknght]

I believed at the time and still believe that one of the major factors in deciding not to resign Amare was his woeful performance against the Lakers in the playoffs. He'd mostly looked very good in prior years playoffs but that letdown vs. LA was fresh in their minds.

 

[SirStefan32]

The Grizzlies gave Z-Bo 71 Million over 4 years for getting Memphis the #7 seed and winning 1 playoff game against the Spurs. We get the #3 seed and reach the WCFs yet cant give Amare 3 more million a year than Z-Bo? Robert Sarver, you look dumber and dumber as the days go on..Your only hope is that Amare blows out a knee in 2 or 3 years.. but you'll still be a dumb*** arrogant selfish piece of sh*t.

That's fine. If Memphis wants to give Randolph $17M per year, more power to them. Just because Memphis did something stupid, doesn't mean the Suns should. Signing Amare would have crippled the Suns for years, and Amare is simply not a player you give 40% of your payroll.

Additionally, you are wrong about some other things. Randolph is not getting $71M. He's getting $66M, with $5M in various incentives.

Also, Phoenix DID offer Amare close to $20M per year, with three years guaranteed.

Sarver did the right thing by not signing Stoudemire. No team is ever going to win anything with Stoudemire as their best player. The only way Amare wins anything is if his team is willing to have a $90M payroll.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

That's fine. If Memphis wants to give Randolph $17M per year, more power to them. Just because Memphis did something stupid, doesn't mean the Suns should. Signing Amare would have crippled the Suns for years, and Amare is simply not a player you give 40% of your payroll.

Additionally, you are wrong about some other things. Randolph is not getting $71M. He's getting $66M, with $5M in various incentives.

Also, Phoenix DID offer Amare close to $20M per year, with three years guaranteed.

Sarver did the right thing by not signing Stoudemire. No team is ever going to win anything with Stoudemire as their best player. The only way Amare wins anything is if his team is willing to have a $90M payroll.

You don't see this team sans Amare crippled for years? I sure as hell do.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Public polls people. I cant remember what i voted. haha

Your vote will be in Italics.

 

[Mainstreet]

For what it's worth in the comparison, Zach Randolph has had microfracture surgery as well.

 

[SirStefan32]

You don't see this team sans Amare crippled for years? I sure as hell do.

Not at all. I should have been more specific and said "financially crippled for years." If you sign somebody like Amare for 20+M per year, that's about 30-40% of your payroll. The moment you sign a non-franchise player for that amount of money, you are financially crippled for the duration of that contract.

If he gets hurt and needs another surgery (which he will within the next two years), you are really screwed as 30-40% of your payroll is not contributing at all.

Sarver did the right thing and offered Amare a nice deal, while also protecting his team by making it a requirement that Amare plays a certain number of games in the last two years.

You can miss Amare all you want, and say how we would have made playoffs with Amare, and you'd be correct. However, that does not change the fact that Amare is NOT a franchise player, and if the Suns used 40% of their payroll on him, they would have never won anything, and they would be screwed for the duration of his contract.

Sarver did the right thing for this team.

 

[Mainstreet]

Your vote will be in Italics.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place but I could not find anything in italics when I looked at "view votes." Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place for my vote or I didn't vote because I didn't like the options.

 

[SirStefan32]

For what it's worth in the comparison, Zach Randolph has had microfracture surgery as well.

If I remember correctly, both of them had microfracture surgery the same year.
There is no comparison between the two, though.
Randolph is getting $16.5M per year for 4 years, and Amare wanted over $20M per year for five years. We are talking $66M vs. $100M+.

Another significant difference is that Memphis is just trying to make playoffs, while the Suns were making playoffs for years. Guys like Zach Randolph and Amare Stoudemire will get you to playoffs. They may get you to conference finals, but they are not going to win you a championship.

Signing Randolph was the right thing to do for Memphis.
Letting Amare walk was the right thing to do for Phoenix.

 

[slinslin]

Letting Amare walk for nothing was NOT THE RIGHT thing. How can you say that? They lost their most valueable asset for nothing.

Btw Jason Kidd also had microfracture surgery a few years before Amare and did not need another surgery so far.

Letting Amare go for nothing was plain stupid. Signing Childress and Warrick with the money made it even worse.

What you don't get is that the Suns could have traded Amare, even if you dislike him for whatever reasons. Or they could have rebuild and trade Nash and co to get younger pieces around Amare.

The Suns would have a ton more options right now AND would definitely be a better basketball team.

And if you did not get it yet. Making the playoffs is the only thing that the Suns care about. They would rather always be the #8 seed and get swept then be in the lottery for a few seasons.

 

[Mainstreet]

If I remember correctly, both of them had microfracture surgery the same year.
There is no comparison between the two, though.
Randolph is getting $16.5M per year for 4 years, and Amare wanted over $20M per year for five years. We are talking $66M vs. $100M+.

Another significant difference is that Memphis is just trying to make playoffs, while the Suns were making playoffs for years. Guys like Zach Randolph and Amare Stoudemire will get you to playoffs. They may get you to conference finals, but they are not going to win you a championship.

Signing Randolph was the right thing to do for Memphis.
Letting Amare walk was the right thing to do for Phoenix.

Looking at the situation in hindsight, don't you think the Suns should have signed Amare to the max and then traded him this past season? I know it would have been a calculated gamble, but most of the concerns about Amare's health were down the road. IMO, New York would have participated in a sign and trade if the Suns would have been willing to sign Amare the $100M guaranteed contract he wanted.

 

[SirStefan32]

Looking at the situation in hindsight, don't you think the Suns should have signed Amare to the max and then traded him this past season? I know it would have been a calculated gamble, but most of the concerns about Amare's health were down the road. IMO, New York would have participated in a sign and trade if the Suns would have been willing to sign Amare the $100M guaranteed contract he wanted.

Hindsight is 20-20. Everyone is an expert after the fact.
Suns were trying to trade him for 2-3 years and every single offer was pure crap. Part of it was that nobody wanted to trade for him knowing he could be a one year rental.
I guess signing him and then try to get a desperate team (Knicks) to trade for him probably seems like a better option, but there is no guarantee that they would have traded much for him. That would have been a gamble, and could have gone either way.
Additionally, I really don't think he would have signed with the Suns anyway. I think he wanted to go to New York, and would have gone there regardless of what the Suns offered him.

 

[slinslin]

Hindsight is 20-20. Everyone is an expert after the fact.
Suns were trying to trade him for 2-3 years and every single offer was pure crap. Part of it was that nobody wanted to trade for him knowing he could be a one year rental.
I guess signing him and then try to get a desperate team (Knicks) to trade for him probably seems like a better option, but there is no guarantee that they would have traded much for him. That would have been a gamble, and could have gone either way.
Additionally, I really don't think he would have signed with the Suns anyway. I think he wanted to go to New York, and would have gone there regardless of what the Suns offered him.

Please... The Suns were trading him for 2-3 years? You can't be serious. They were listening for offers and had a high asking price for him if anything.

Dude even if Amare messed up this season and had another microfracture now. It STILL would have been better than lose him for nothing and sign Childress and Warrick instead.

There is no chance this move by the Suns will ever be justified.

 

[Mainstreet]

Hindsight is 20-20. Everyone is an expert after the fact.
Suns were trying to trade him for 2-3 years and every single offer was pure crap. Part of it was that nobody wanted to trade for him knowing he could be a one year rental.
I guess signing him and then try to get a desperate team (Knicks) to trade for him probably seems like a better option, but there is no guarantee that they would have traded much for him. That would have been a gamble, and could have gone either way.
Additionally, I really don't think he would have signed with the Suns anyway. I think he wanted to go to New York, and would have gone there regardless of what the Suns offered him.

I agree hindsight is 20-20, however I have never read that Amare wanted anything more that the $100M guaranteed money to stay with the Suns prior to the Suns letting him go to NY. Money was the only stumbling block with the Suns from my recollection.

 

[AfroSuns]

The moment you sign a non-franchise player for that amount of money, you are financially crippled for the duration of that contract.

i kinda agree with everything but the above, are you saying Amare is not a franchise player?

 

[Griffin]

I believed at the time and still believe that one of the major factors in deciding not to resign Amare was his woeful performance against the Lakers in the playoffs. He'd mostly looked very good in prior years playoffs but that letdown vs. LA was fresh in their minds.

I have thought that as well. A lot of attention was paid to his health issues as a major reason for not giving him the deal he wanted, but I thought that had he played better in that series, even if the Suns lost they might have kept him. I think the ownership decided that Amare wasn't going to get them any further than he already has. Unfortunately, they had no plan on how to use him as an asset in order to improve the team so that they can get further in the near future.

 

[SirStefan32]

i kinda agree with everything but the above, are you saying Amare is not a franchise player?

Yes, I have always said that Amare is not a franchise player. Franchise players are Kobe Bryan, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett.
Franchise players are dominant on both ends of the floor, and have the ability to take their team, put them on their back, and carry them. (Yes, I realize LeBron hasn't lead his team to championship yet)

Amare is a very good player, but he is not a franchise player. Let me put it this way- take the Suns teams from the past 5 years or so and replace Stoudemire with Duncan or Garnett, and I can guarantee you that the Suns would have a ring or two right now.

 

[AfroSuns]

Yes, I have always said that Amare is not a franchise player. Franchise players are Kobe Bryan, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett.
Franchise players are dominant on both ends of the floor, and have the ability to take their team, put them on their back, and carry them. (Yes, I realize LeBron hasn't lead his team to championship yet)

Amare is a very good player, but he is not a franchise player. Let me put it this way- take the Suns teams from the past 5 years or so and replace Stoudemire with Duncan or Garnett, and I can guarantee you that the Suns would have a ring or two right now.

That argument is kinda flawed seeing how Garnet didn't get a ring until the pairing in Boston.
Duncan had Robinson and later the other big two.
Amare was pretty much playing out of position most of the time. I say put a traditional center; the likes of Perkins, Gortat with Amare and the Suns are guaranteed a ring.
imo, any argument about Amare not being a franchise player was put to rest this season with what he was able to accomplish in NY, he has his limitations of course but you cant deny is offensive prowess, which i have always said makes up for the little defensive lapse.

 

[SirStefan32]

I have thought that as well. A lot of attention was paid to his health issues as a major reason for not giving him the deal he wanted, but I thought that had he played better in that series, even if the Suns lost they might have kept him. I think the ownership decided that Amare wasn't going to get them any further than he already has. Unfortunately, they had no plan on how to use him as an asset in order to improve the team so that they can get further in the near future.

That I agree with. I think the biggest mistake was going out and signing Warrick, Chilli, and trading for Hedo.
Fortunately, we were lucky enough to turn Hedo into Gortat and a Gigantic expiring contract, but had Orlando not made that possible, Phoenix would be in deep crap for years to come.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The moment you sign a non-franchise player for that amount of money, you are financially crippled for the duration of that contract.

Pure BS, there have been plenty of very successful teams with onerous contracts on their books. Does it help? Of course not, but it's not a franchise killer.

If he gets hurt and needs another surgery (which he will within the next two years),

I love how people like you continue to assert this with certainty like it's a foregone conclusion. Amare was pretty much run into the ground all year and played the vast majority of the season. There were plenty of other NBA players that everyone thought were not injury prone that sat out much of the season. Is Amare more likely to be prone to future knee issues? Probably, but injuries are a crap shoot in this and any other league.

Sarver did the right thing and offered Amare a nice deal, while also protecting his team by making it a requirement that Amare plays a certain number of games in the last two years.

With the full knowledge that Amare wouldn't accept the terms, as there was guaranteed to be a better offer available. That's called a token offer.

You can miss Amare all you want, and say how we would have made playoffs with Amare, and you'd be correct. However, that does not change the fact that Amare is NOT a franchise player, and if the Suns used 40% of their payroll on him, they would have never won anything, and they would be screwed for the duration of his contract.

The question isn't whether or not he's a franchise player, which is debatable. The question is, is he worth max money? Of course it would have been a gamble paying him max money, but year one certainly looks like it would have been well worth the investment. We'll see how the rest of the contract plays out, but right now, not looking so good. It's either take a risk with Amare, or put the franchise in stasis for the next 5 years. I'd have rolled the dice.

Sarver did the right thing for this team.

If by the team you mean himself, then you're right. I wonder if you asked Nash, Grant Hill, Dud and the rest of the guys if they agree with your sentiment.

 

[SirStefan32]

That argument is kinda flawed seeing how Garnet didn't get a ring until the pairing in Boston.
Duncan had Robinson and later the other big two.
Amare was pretty much playing out of position most of the time. I say put a traditional center; the likes of Perkins, Gortat with Amare and the Suns are guaranteed a ring.
imo, any argument about Amare not being a franchise player was put to rest this season with what he was able to accomplish in NY, he has his limitations of course but you cant deny is offensive prowess, which i have always said makes up for the little defensive lapse.

Those arguments are always going to be flawed to some degree, so you have a point there. However, I think when you look at Tim Duncan or KG and then look at Amare, you see the difference. Tim Duncan and KG are dominant on both ends of the floor, and each one has taken his team on his back and carried them to victory. Amare is probably as good offensively as TD or KG, but that's where similarities stop.

I don't think his season in NY proved anything. We all knew he could score 25-30 point every night, and we knew he could get the team into the playoffs. He hasn't proved anything we didn't already know to be true.

Now, if Amare shuts down KG, and averages 30 points, 15 rebound, 5 blocks, and makes some clutch plays in each game to lead his team past the Celtics, then we can agree that he may be on his way to becoming a franchise player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, I have always said that Amare is not a franchise player. Franchise players are Kobe Bryan, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett.
Franchise players are dominant on both ends of the floor, and have the ability to take their team, put them on their back, and carry them. (Yes, I realize LeBron hasn't lead his team to championship yet)

Amare is a very good player, but he is not a franchise player. Let me put it this way- take the Suns teams from the past 5 years or so and replace Stoudemire with Duncan or Garnett, and I can guarantee you that the Suns would have a ring or two right now.

Garnett? are you KIDDING? Dude is a great NUMBER 2, but he was a piss-poor number 1. He almost NEVER put that T-Wolves team on his back, getting hiss ass TRASHED in the playoffs every single year except one and that team was led by Sam Cassel and even though he had homecourt, he STILL couldn't get it to the Finals.

and even on the Celtics, in their only title run, dude's testicles shrank to the size of an eight year old's in the finals on offense.

KG on this team with Nash would have been just as unsuccessful as the Amare teams... hell, probably even worse because Amare was so ridiculously dominant in our first run and by last year KG was a shell of himself.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Those arguments are always going to be flawed to some degree, so you have a point there. However, I think when you look at Tim Duncan or KG and then look at Amare, you see the difference. Tim Duncan and KG are dominant on both ends of the floor, and each one has taken his team on his back and carried them to victory.

you keep saying this about KG but when the guy was a number 1 option, he was pathetic in the playoffs, consistently getting his ass kicked out in the first round, save one year, when he shrunk in the Conference Finals and lost in 6 games with homecourt advantage.

and he didn't carry boston anywhere offensively in their title run... or last year. Pierce and Allen did the heavy lifting on offense because KG's nuts always shrink in crunch time.

KG's one of the most overrated players of all time IMO. He's a FANTASTIC second banana, but as a number 1, he just didn't have the killer instinct on offense to make a difference.

 

[slinslin]

SirStefan you are so full of .... Just look at what you wrote in the playoff thread that you enjoyed Amare failing? When he actually dominated the 4th quarter against a much better team on the road and almost carried the Knicks to a win?

It's hilarious. Who was the best player on the floor last night? Clearly Amare by far.

Also you are not crippled when you sign 27 year old allstar big man to a max contract.

You are crippled when you use cap space to sign mediocre NBA players for full MLE type money over several years. Go out and use the MLE all you want when you have a good team and when you are over the cap anyway. But the way the Suns use it is just hilarious. Consistently blocking any chance to have major capspace for signing big names and then not using the MLE when close to winning it all.

You pay stars a lot and you pay little for role players that is how you build a team. You don't win by paying players like Childress, Frye, Brooks around 7-8M$ a year.

Also that is funny about Garnett... considering Amare in the playoffs was simply BEAST except last years playoffs his playoff history was comparable to NBA legends averaging a career 26/12 in the playoffs despite playing 75% of his games matched up against Duncan.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

SirStefan you are so full of .... Just look at what you wrote in the playoff thread that you enjoyed Amare failing? When he actually dominated the 4th quarter against a much better team on the road and almost carried the Knicks to a win?

It's hilarious. Who was the best player on the floor last night? Clearly Amare by far.

Also you are not crippled when you sign 27 year old allstar big man to a max contract.

You are crippled when you use cap space to sign mediocre NBA players for full MLE type money over several years. Go out and use the MLE all you want when you have a good team and when you are over the cap anyway. But the way the Suns use it is just hilarious. Consistently blocking any chance to have major capspace for signing big names and then not using the MLE when close to winning it all.

You pay stars a lot and you pay little for role players that is how you build a team. You don't win by paying players like Childress, Frye, Brooks around 7-8M$ a year.

Also that is funny about Garnett... considering Amare in the playoffs was simply BEAST except last years playoffs his playoff history was comparable to NBA legends averaging a career 26/12 in the playoffs despite playing 75% of his games matched up against Duncan.

Amen.

 

[Covert Rain]

Also that is funny about Garnett... considering Amare in the playoffs was simply BEAST except last years playoffs his playoff history was comparable to NBA legends averaging a career 26/12 in the playoffs despite playing 75% of his games matched up against Duncan.

His playoffs #'s have always looked good though offensively. Also, looking at career averages is not exactly painting the picture his last couple years here.

Playoffs:

07-08
Pts. 23.2, Reb 9.0

09-10
Pts 22.2, Reb 6.7

His two beast playoffs were in 04-05 and 06-07. Having said that even though he rebounded better those years, Amare's defense was always in question as long as he was a Sun.

So, even if Amare's #'s compared offensively, the two areas we needed Amare to step up in the past couple seasons (Rebounding and defense) he just didn't. Defense has always been an issue with him. It is again this year. Amare has one of the worst Opposing player Scoring PER's in the NBA again this year.

You can't even mention Amare in the same category as KG when it comes to defense. I have always maintained that I am OK with Amare's shortcummings provided you gave him the help on the boards and defensive minded players to surround him with.

The Suns just continued to pile on the run and gun type players. I don't think you can have a big man who primarily scores as the cornerstone of your franchise. I do think he can be a MAJOR piece provided you surround him with the right talent. As long as Nash and Amare were Plan A and Plan B (two of the worst defenders at their respective positions) the Suns were going to have a difficult time down the stretches of huge games when it counts.