Give Marion some slack

[Chaplin]

I just want to say that I think Marion should be traded due to salary implications and inconsistant playoff performances over the years. The emergance of Diaw has given us the luxury of being able to trade Marion.

The emergence of Diaw? I love Boris, but come on now, Shawn Marion is still a much better player than Boris right now.

 

[elindholm]

I love Boris, but come on now, Shawn Marion is still a much better player than Boris right now.

I'm not so sure. Here are their stats in the playoffs so far:

Points per game: Marion 18.7, Diaw 17.5
FG%: Marion .446, Diaw .535
Rebounds: Marion 10.5, Diaw 5.6
Assists: Marion 2.1, Diaw 6.1

Marion has the edge in minor statistics (steals, blocks, etc). But among the main statistics above, it's pretty much a wash. I think Marion is better at the moment, but it's a lot closer than one might think.

 

[Chaplin]

I love Boris, but come on now, Shawn Marion is still a much better player than Boris right now.

I'm not so sure. Here are their stats in the playoffs so far:

Points per game: Marion 18.7, Diaw 17.5
FG%: Marion .446, Diaw .535
Rebounds: Marion 10.5, Diaw 5.6
Assists: Marion 2.1, Diaw 6.1

Marion has the edge in minor statistics (steals, blocks, etc). But among the main statistics above, it's pretty much a wash. I think Marion is better at the moment, but it's a lot closer than one might think.

Please, Eric, I know you're not using the playoffs only as a gauge. I really do like Boris Diaw, but as Cheesebeef loves to do, ask anyone in the league who they'd want, and they would all say Marion before Boris. At least right now they would.

 

[pokerface]

The emergence of Diaw? I love Boris, but come on now, Shawn Marion is still a much better player than Boris right now.

No one said Diaw replaces Marion 100%...that would be foolish to imply at this stage. Whats being said is Marion is making 14 mill which restricts our ability to keep players. Better off trading Marion now while his value is at a all time high and getting something good back. Diaw is a already good replacement for Marion wtih significant upside yet to go.

The alternatives are:

1) Keep Marion and possibly lose other key players for salary reasons.

2) Keep Marion and when Amare comes back bench Diaw more because he cant get the minutes. Frankly a Diaw/Amare starting combination seems more appealing to me than Marion/Amare.

 

[Chaplin]

2) Keep Marion and when Amare comes back bench Diaw more because he cant get the minutes. Frankly a Diaw/Amare starting combination seems more appealing to me than Marion/Amare.

First, I don't agree with that, but it's understandable.

Second, all this talk about getting rid of Marion due to salary restrictions is the same old song, just a different year.

The problem is that we do this every single year. We THINK we have the makings of a solid, all-around team, then we end up trading one of the top 3 players on it. This is the Suns MO. And one of the major reasons we don't have any trophies at the Arena.

I'm worried about Marion's lack of fire in the playoffs, but I'm sick of having this team come close then fall back down every single year. If Amare had been healthy this season, these Marion threads wouldn't even exist. Probably because we'd be tearing up the league. And yes, with Boris coming off the bench.

 

[pokerface]

I love Boris, but come on now, Shawn Marion is still a much better player than Boris right now.

I'm not so sure. Here are their stats in the playoffs so far:

Points per game: Marion 18.7, Diaw 17.5
FG%: Marion .446, Diaw .535
Rebounds: Marion 10.5, Diaw 5.6
Assists: Marion 2.1, Diaw 6.1

Marion has the edge in minor statistics (steals, blocks, etc). But among the main statistics above, it's pretty much a wash. I think Marion is better at the moment, but it's a lot closer than one might think.

Those are good numbers by Diaw....and thats only his first playoff run. This is probably Marions best playoffs (or close to).

 

[elindholm]

ask anyone in the league who they'd want, and they would all say Marion before Boris. At least right now they would.

Depends what you mean. For one regular-season game, right now? Yes, Marion. For all of next year? Less clear.

The Suns themselves are going to have to decide very soon between Marion and Diaw, quite possibly this summer, but by next summer at the latest. My guess is that they are going to choose Diaw.

 

[Chaplin]

The Suns themselves are going to have to decide very soon between Marion and Diaw, quite possibly this summer, but by next summer at the latest. My guess is that they are going to choose Diaw.

If that choice means losing Shawn to the Blazers for Darius Miles being the best deal they can get, are they still going to choose Diaw? Just wondering how easy that choice is going to be.

 

[nowagimp]

Marion is definetly an above-average defender(calling him average is just plain stupid), he's a very good defender. If YOU can't see that it shows that you are just a hater because Marion is a little inconsistant in the playoffs. He should have been on the 2nd all-defensive team the last two years and anyone can see that.

Over the last two years, Marion has averages more steals, the same blocks and nearly the same rebounding as Garnett. Either Marion is under rated or Garnet is over rated. Is Garnet better, yes I think so, but a 7 footer who averages 1.4 blocks a game? Where is the defense, if he's all NBA? Elton Brand averages 2.5(at 6'8"), we wont even talk about other 7 footers, all except the Rashos of the NBA average more blocks in 48 mins than Garnett. Sounds like he's smaller than our Garnett fans on this board think. If you made Garnett guard Duncan and shaq, he'd get eaten too, he's not strong enough. The difference is that the wolves dont use Garnett that way, but the suns do that to Marion. Im just confident that the suns will not give away the farm on a guy, Garnett, who has been consistent but not dominating for his whole career, at 20 mil/yr. Trading one overpaid guy for another is not very appealing.

 

[pokerface]

What would you prefer Chaplin...Keep Marion and let our other assets walk? Marion is in his prime now but for how much longer? We have to think of our future and who is going to be in it.

Also salary is a part of the NBA and it must always be considered to a big extent. Marions money is big and getting bigger still. I dont want to wait unitl his value takes a hit because of the money and age.

 

[elindholm]

If that choice means losing Shawn to the Blazers for Darius Miles being the best deal they can get, are they still going to choose Diaw? Just wondering how easy that choice is going to be.

It's possible that they would prefer Diaw and be stuck with Marion. I thought we were talking about who they'd prefer, not what is actually going to happen.

 

[Chaplin]

If that choice means losing Shawn to the Blazers for Darius Miles being the best deal they can get, are they still going to choose Diaw? Just wondering how easy that choice is going to be.

It's possible that they would prefer Diaw and be stuck with Marion. I thought we were talking about who they'd prefer, not what is actually going to happen.

Aah, sorry, I thought we were at least trying to keep some semblance of reality in the discussion.

 

[elindholm]

Over the last two years, Marion has averages more steals, the same blocks and nearly the same rebounding as Garnett.

Garnett has averaged better than 13 rebounds per game over the past four years. That's a pretty big difference in my opinion.

It's true that Garnett is not a great shot blocker.

If you made Garnett guard Duncan and shaq, he'd get eaten too, he's not strong enough. The difference is that the wolves dont use Garnett that way, but the suns do that to Marion.

I don't recall Marion guarding O'Neal. Garnett defends Duncan at least as well as Marion does.

Im just confident that the suns will not give away the farm on a guy, Garnett

Me too. I don't think that Marion, Barbosa, and picks would constitute "the farm," even if that trade were to be possible.

 

[Chaplin]

What would you prefer Chaplin...Keep Marion and let our other assets walk? Marion is in his prime now but for how much longer? We have to think of our future and who is going to be in it.

Don't be so simplistic. There are a lot of options out there. We don't even know what the salary cap and luxury tax will be next summer. Is Marion's contract a problem? Might be. But why did they sign him to it in the first place?

Also salary is a big part of the NBA and it must always be considered to a big extent. Marions money is big and getting bigger still. I dont want to wait unitl his value takes a hit because of the money and age.

Dude, nobody is discounting the reasoning for trading away a big-salaried player. But trading him to a bad team with cap space doesn't help us at all. And trading him to a team with no cap space gets us crappy players--that doesn't help us either. So what's the solution?

The thing is, while the bottom line is important, winning a championship is more important. So far Sarver has not shown anything tangible to prove that he doesn't care about a championship. We've were extremely close his first year as owner, and we probably would have been the favorites this year had Amare and KT not gotten injured.

 

[elindholm]

Aah, sorry, I thought we were at least trying to keep some semblance of reality in the discussion.

Sure. How realistic is it that the Suns wouldn't find ANY taker for Marion? Not. I just didn't think it was worth arguing that point.

Please don't pick a fight with me. You asserted that any GM in the league would take Marion over Diaw right now. I said I don't think it's that clear. Then you wandered into some bizarre hypothetical scenario involving Darius Miles, of all people, and I tried to sidestep it as politely as I could. What do you want me to say?

 

[elindholm]

Is Marion's contract a problem. Might be. But why did they sign him to it in the first place?

What's different now is that Diaw's play has earned him a bigger extension that the Suns were counting on. If the Suns were able to sign both Diaw and Barbosa to extensions starting at around $10 million per year (combined), this discussion wouldn't have nearly the same urgency. But that possibility is out the window. Diaw may command that much all by himself.

Also, as a reminder, I was against giving Marion a premature max extension from the very beginning, and I've never wavered on that stance.

 

[Chaplin]

Aah, sorry, I thought we were at least trying to keep some semblance of reality in the discussion.

Sure. How realistic is it that the Suns wouldn't find ANY taker for Marion? Not. I just didn't think it was worth arguing that point.

Please don't pick a fight with me. You asserted that any GM in the league would take Marion over Diaw right now. I said I don't think it's that clear. Then you wandered into some bizarre hypothetical scenario involving Darius Miles, of all people, and I tried to sidestep it as politely as I could. What do you want me to say?

That is not true. You were talking about the Suns making a choice. You thought they would pick Diaw over Marion, but at what consequences? In your next post, you did detail that the Suns would be "stuck" with Marion (disagree with your wording, but the idea is accurate). The real question is if the Suns will be unable to sign Boris long-term simply because of Marion and his contract? We won't know. But as much as we hate to think it, it might be Amare's contract that causes the most problems, not Marion's, if Amare doesn't come back like his old self.

 

[pokerface]

But as much as we hate to think it, it might be Amare's contract that causes the most problems, not Marion's, if Amare doesn't come back like his old self


We're stuck with Amare until the skies clear...not so with Marion.

 

[elindholm]

In your next post, you did detail that the Suns would be "stuck" with Marion (disagree with your wording, but the idea is accurate).

No. You wrote, "If that choice means losing Shawn to the Blazers for Darius Miles being the best deal they can get, are they still going to choose Diaw?"

I had two possible ways to respond:

1. "Give me a break, Chaplin, Marion has more value than that and you know it."

2. "It's possible (emphasis added) that they would prefer Diaw and be stuck with Marion."

I thought that #2 was more polite, so that's what I went with. But in fact, if the Suns need to move Marion to clear up salary space, I have little doubt that they will be able to do so, fairly easily. For example, they could trade him to the Raptors for nothing.

But as much as we hate to think it, it might be Amare's contract that causes the most problems, not Marion's, if Amare doesn't come back like his old self.

Absolutely correct. But the Suns can't move Stoudemire, so there's no point speculating there. Also, I don't see what Stoudemire has to do with the question, "Would all GMs in the league prefer Marion to Diaw?"

 

[Chaplin]

In your next post, you did detail that the Suns would be "stuck" with Marion (disagree with your wording, but the idea is accurate).

No. You wrote, "If that choice means losing Shawn to the Blazers for Darius Miles being the best deal they can get, are they still going to choose Diaw?"

I had two possible ways to respond:

1. "Give me a break, Chaplin, Marion has more value than that and you know it."

2. "It's possible (emphasis added) that they would prefer Diaw and be stuck with Marion."

I thought that #2 was more polite, so that's what I went with. But in fact, if the Suns need to move Marion to clear up salary space, I have little doubt that they will be able to do so, fairly easily. For example, they could trade him to the Raptors for nothing.

But as much as we hate to think it, it might be Amare's contract that causes the most problems, not Marion's, if Amare doesn't come back like his old self.

Absolutely correct. But the Suns can't move Stoudemire, so there's no point speculating there. Also, I don't see what Stoudemire has to do with the question, "Would all GMs in the league prefer Marion to Diaw?"

Eric, the entire reason for bringing up the either/or on Marion or Diaw is about the money issue. IF the Suns HAVE to make a choice between the two, it will be based on money. Throw out the money issue, and it becomes a vague choice. You're right, also, that we could trade him to the Raptors for nothing, but would that happen? I don't think there's any chance of that--talk about destroying a fan base. There would be some upset people in Phoenix if they traded Marion for less value on the court, but there would be riots if they traded him for nothing.

I wrote: If that choice means losing Shawn to the Blazers for Darius Miles being the best deal they can get, are they still going to choose Diaw? but I also wrote I'm just wondering how easy that choice is going to be. No need to take it out of context. My point is they're not going to get rid of him just to do it. You seem to think there is a good chance that they might. Unless I'm mistaken, and for that I apologize. I'm not trying to get in a fight with you--on most of these issues, we agree.

 

[jibikao]

I agree with the article. Artest isn't even close to Marion. Marion would score as many points, and Artest is almost as bad at 3's. Marion gets twice as many rebounds. Marion's defense is being underrated on this board too. He's a great defensive player and he's the only guy at his height that can rebound with and defend bigger guys. Marion blocks shots and gets steals as good or better than Artest too. Also, Prince's defense looks better because of the team he's on. Marion would look better too if he had Ben Wallace and Rasheed on his team to help him in the front court. If you would seriously put those guys ahead of Marion I am glad you are not our GM. We'd seriously be screwed. I like Artest and Prince too, but the only one that I'd want on the team other than Marion right now in a trade is Garnett.

This is sort of off-topic but I don't think coach D would like Ben Wallace as a starter since he can't shoot well. What I like is Rasheed Wallace. He is one of the better post defender and he has post-up game and 3pt ability when he is hot. I would love to have Rasheed on the team!

 

[pokerface]

Why keep Marion when we have Diaw?? When Amare comes back someone is going to have hurt feelings over minutes so lets just avoid it.

 

[sly fly]

The emergence of Diaw? I love Boris, but come on now, Shawn Marion is still a much better player than Boris right now.

You sure about that? Diaw impresses the hell out of me.

I'm not down on Marion as some of you. Yes, his playoff inconsistency is frustrating. But, you have to put it into context. Marion does a lot of the intangibles which helps his team win, even if he's clanking up 3's or playing butterfingers with the ball.

I don't see an ounce of selfishness on the court. Just a guy who does his thing, and ends up filling up the stat book. He's a ballplayer with no position. Coaches love guys like this.

Screw Ron Artest. I'd take Marion 10 out of 10 times over that prick. And, I'm talking about ball-ability, not character.

 

[Chaplin]

You sure about that? Diaw impresses the hell out of me.

Absolutely! Until Boris decides to be more consistent in his aggressiveness, he won't be as good as Shawn. His problems finishing are glaring, IMO, a product of his inexperience.

 

[az1965]

Boris is little soft right now. Those extra passes underneath the basket drive me nuts. But he is going to be good eventually.