Good News/Bad News on Jonathan Cooper

[kerouac9]

SO... Rugby is either going to love or hate this article:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-jonathan-cooper-and-chance-warmack

Cooper plays with good pad level and knee bend -- he doesn’t shuffle side to side as much as he glides. His set and footwork are smooth, fluid, and pretty much exactly what you want from interior lineman. His punch has a little bit too much load-up to it, but when he lands his hands they’re heavy and he anchors well against the bull rush. He is as strong an interior pass-blocking prospect as I’ve seen in the three years I’ve been looking at this kind of stuff.

On top of that, he pass blocks like the game is moving slower for him. Not only is he rarely out of position on his own blocks, he’s excellent at helping the center or guard when he can in slide protection. He has a knack for coming off of one guy and onto another at just the right time to prevent pressures. And, when he gets a chance, he knocks guys on their asses.

Ben Muth is a former Stanford OL and (more importantly) an Arizona Cardinals fan. He's worth reading.

 

[Catfish]

Thanks K-9. I like Muth a lot, and moreover I trust him. I haven't yet seen him catering to anyone's power pushes in order to either upgrade or downgrade any particular player. He has a keen eye for what is really happening on the field, as opposed to what it looks like is happening there.

I can fully relate to his assessment of Cooper, because I was one of those linemen who often got down field but seldom made a block once there. Even when I did make one, it usually was not a needed block, but merely one on a defender that the ball carrier was about to defeat anyway with a cut. Oh, there was the pleasure of knocking someone on his butt alright, but it was almost never the one that sprung the ball carrier for a TD. The coaches often lauded me for getting down field, but in truth, I would be hard pressed to say I was an effective down field blocker. It would seem that to many, just getting there is enough. I have often wondered just how many more W's would have been recorded if I had just been able to locate the 'right' guy to block once I got down field. Obviously my vision did not translate to that of the ball carrier's. That may be what Cooper sees also.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

SO... Rugby is either going to love or hate this article:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2013/word-muth-jonathan-cooper-and-chance-warmack



Ben Muth is a former Stanford OL and (more importantly) an Arizona Cardinals fan. He's worth reading.

With Sendlein at Center, we need a Guard who can "help other blockers"

 

[ARZCardinals]

He dominated in college.

I'll avoid the negative till someone beats him.

 

[HotSauce]

While they are different types of players and Cooper is talented, am I the only one that still believes that Warmack will turn out to be the better player overall?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

While they are different types of players and Cooper is talented, am I the only one that still believes that Warmack will turn out to be the better player overall?

Hard to compare because they are built for different systems. Cooper being better for a zone scheme and Warmack being built more for a power man scheme. Honestly don't care which one has the better career as long as Cooper has a good career.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Whats the Bad News>?

 

[PJ1]

Whats the Bad News>?

+1 Not seeing it either.

 

[HotSauce]

Hard to compare because they are built for different systems. Cooper being better for a zone scheme and Warmack being built more for a power man scheme. Honestly don't care which one has the better career as long as Cooper has a good career.

True. So true. However that's my concern. Hard to put my finger on it, but while his upside seems higher, Cooper's floor seems to be much lower than Warmack's floor to me. In the end I don't believe the Cardinals should have used a top 7 pick on a guard. But, if they had to do it, Warmack seemed like the safer selection to me.

 

[CFLredzoned]

Whats the Bad News>?

The notion that BA and Keim might have fell for what Muth mentions half way down. That is putting too much emphasis on how a guy looks pulling and not enough emphasis on whether he actually moves people after he does pull. Muth feels that Warmack is actually the better pulling guard because of that. He is also skeptical about Cooper ever being a pro bowl player because of his lack of moving people. Hopefully, time in the weight room fixes that. Didn’t he have one of the top bench presses in the combine though?

… I think most people are aware that Chance Warmack made his name as a drive blocker in college, but I actually think Warmack was a very effective puller as well. A better one than Cooper, in fact.

My biggest pet peeve with people who "grade" offensive linemen for the draft is that they put far too much emphasis on how a guy looks when he’s pulling and not enough on what he does when he gets there. People end up judging a 325-pound guy’s running form and not whether or not he created space for a back to run through. Cooper was seen as an elite puller because he looked so fluid moving. He was a good one, particularly tracking linebackers over the top, but he could get stood up in the hole by a linebacker that was really ready to thump and plug the hole. That doesn’t happen to Chance Warmack.

… but when it’s time to flat-out move somebody, he didn’t blow me away. I think he’s good enough at everything else that he’ll be at least a solid pro, but if he can’t move anyone, he’ll never really be an All-Pro on the interior.

 

[joeshmo]

Muth is confusing in this article because he is talking out of both sides of his mouth, something that draft prognosticators seem to to a lot of these days so they can never be found wrong. All of them do it, even the best ones and it is highly annoying.

In one sentence he says - " And, when he gets a chance, he knocks guys on their asses."

Then in another sentence he says - " but if he can’t move anyone, he’ll never really be an All-Pro on the interior."

So which is it then.......

 

[D-Dogg]

He is saying he can't move people in space, but if he is in open area, he will go for the kill shot. Both statements are in context - he knocks guys on their ass when he gets the chance, but when run blocking in the interior, he doesn't get the chance.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He is saying he can't move people in space, but if he is in open area, he will go for the kill shot. Both statements are in context - he knocks guys on their ass when he gets the chance, but when run blocking in the interior, he doesn't get the chance.

Yeah, I didn't take it as contradictory either. It's a fair assessment, and his raw physicality and power are different than Warmack.

I am fine with Cooper, and am confident he'll be a good NFL player, but racing down the field and not hitting anyone is less valuable than a slower approach where you actually hit someone. (Duh)

 

[kerouac9]

I think that Muth is being consistent. Cooper is a very fleet/quick/smart, but doesn't have the power at the POA to take a nose and move him off the ball.

Warmack doesn't look smooth kicking out in the run game, but certainly gets the job done well enough for what he's going to be asked to do 70% of the time.

 

[52brandon]

considering how bad our Oline has been for so long, I love that Cooper is so good at helping his teammates. His inferiority run-blocking is a concern, but with so many coaches working with our Oline, I think they'll get him figured out

 

[Duckjake]

considering how bad our Oline has been for so long, I love that Cooper is so good at helping his teammates. His inferiority run-blocking is a concern, but with so many coaches working with our Oline, I think they'll get him figured out

Having Cooper pull to lead run plays instead of Housler will help immensely. Some of the run plays last season were ridiculously designed.

 

[BigRedRage]

hoping with a former OL GM, he knew exactly what he got and thought he was a big upgrade and better suited than warmack. time will tell.

 

[kerouac9]

Having Cooper pull to lead run plays instead of Housler will help immensely. Some of the run plays last season were ridiculously designed.

I don't know if your run fits really change between a LG and a TE. That doesn't make sense.

With a tight end who can at least apply SOME effort to run-blocking, those plays that call for the TE to come across the line and at least put a body on someone make some sense. But the reality is that Housler was the TE, and he's unable at best to block anyone right now.

The separation between the theory of what the previous staff was trying to do and the reality of doing those things with the talent on hand was staggering, and the primary reason the previous staff are now assistants in San Diego.

My intention with the OP was not to denigrate Jonathan Cooper. I've said for months that this staff would prefer Cooper over Warmack. Basically, what Muth is saying confirms what others including myself and Rugby saw before the draft:

Jonathan Cooper is a superior pass protector to Warmack and is prettier in the kickout game. But in power running situations, we may not have an interior lineman who is above-average at the point of attack.

That means that our running backs are going to be increasingly running at angles toward the line of scrimmage, and it'll be more difficult to win on third-and-short situations.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't know if your run fits really change between a LG and a TE. That doesn't make sense.

With a tight end who can at least apply SOME effort to run-blocking, those plays that call for the TE to come across the line and at least put a body on someone make some sense. But the reality is that Housler was the TE, and he's unable at best to block anyone right now.

The separation between the theory of what the previous staff was trying to do and the reality of doing those things with the talent on hand was staggering, and the primary reason the previous staff are now assistants in San Diego.

My intention with the OP was not to denigrate Jonathan Cooper. I've said for months that this staff would prefer Cooper over Warmack. Basically, what Muth is saying confirms what others including myself and Rugby saw before the draft:

Jonathan Cooper is a superior pass protector to Warmack and is prettier in the kickout game. But in power running situations, we may not have an interior lineman who is above-average at the point of attack.

That means that our running backs are going to be increasingly running at angles toward the line of scrimmage, and it'll be more difficult to win on third-and-short situations.

Obviously it made sense because you knew exactly what I was talking about. Housler was pulling and he seldom ever blocked anybody. You'll notice I didn't say TE, I specifically referred to Housler. To design run plays where Housler was relied on to make the key block was just nuts.

 

[kerouac9]

Obviously it made sense because you knew exactly what I was talking about. Housler was pulling and he seldom ever blocked anybody. You'll notice I didn't say TE, I specifically referred to Housler. To design run plays where Housler was relied on to make the key block was just nuts.

Well, it makes sense in the terms that you need 9 guys to block on a run play, but it's difficult to build a play call when the TE suddenly doesn't need to block because his responsibility is being replaced by a pulling guard.

Most of the time, the guy on the edge is going to have to actually set the edge. A pulling guard from the same side of the line makes getting to the hole more difficult. If you look at this little play, the opening in the middle of the line in yawning, and the TE still has to set the edge on the outside against a DE.

 

[Duckjake]

Well, it makes sense in the terms that you need 9 guys to block on a run play, but it's difficult to build a play call when the TE suddenly doesn't need to block because his responsibility is being replaced by a pulling guard.

Most of the time, the guy on the edge is going to have to actually set the edge. A pulling guard from the same side of the line makes getting to the hole more difficult. If you look at this little play, the opening in the middle of the line in yawning, and the TE still has to set the edge on the outside against a DE.

I don't care about all that technical stuff. I know for a fact that Cooper pulling will be better than Whiff Housler. Nothing else matters.

Of course I know if I wrote that a pulling TE is better than a Guard you'd put up something showing the opposite because you just like to argue. I bet you have a stump in your living room you argue with every Tuesday.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't care about all that technical stuff. I know for a fact that Cooper pulling will be better than Whiff Housler. Nothing else matters.

Of course I know if I wrote that a pulling TE is better than a Guard you'd put up something showing the opposite because you just like to argue. I bet you have a stump in your living room you argue with every Tuesday.

In reality, you're probably pulling both at times. It's just rare to have a guard pull to his side of the football, because it leaves the middle of the line so exposed. I remember seeing Rich Ohrnberger pull all the way from RG (IIRC) to outside the LT to block the Packers' rush linebacker, and that was the weirdest thing that I'd ever seen. That was Nate Potter's first start, I think.

EDIT: I'm just thrilled that I took 15 minutes and put together that offensive play template. That opens up entirely new possibilities for didacticism.

 

[Duckjake]

In reality, you're probably pulling both at times. It's just rare to have a guard pull to his side of the football, because it leaves the middle of the line so exposed. I remember seeing Rich Ohrnberger pull all the way from RG (IIRC) to outside the LT to block the Packers' rush linebacker, and that was the weirdest thing that I'd ever seen. That was Nate Potter's first start, I think.

Housler would usually pull to the left and whiff. Colledge would pull to the right and fall down. When I wrote that I was thinking Cooper would play RG. Apparently that assumption was incorrect. Just like the Cards to take a guy in the first round and have that create a hole at another position.

 

[Sam Wise]

The biggest thing between Cooper and Warmack is, Cooper is an elite Pass Blocker, Warmack is and Elite Run Blocker, thus Cooper made allot more sense for us and Warmack is a perfect fit for Tennesee. I expect a 60-40% pass-run ratio at a minimum from us. This is what our offense is built for, we won't be boring, but #2 WR's and TE's(still the most elusive creature for the Cardinals D for all of history, check the stats it's really hilarious and frustrating) will eat us for lunch.

 

[kerouac9]

The biggest thing between Cooper and Warmack is, Cooper is an elite Pass Blocker, Warmack is and Elite Run Blocker, thus Cooper made allot more sense for us and Warmack is a perfect fit for Tennesee. I expect a 60-40% pass-run ratio at a minimum from us. This is what our offense is built for, we won't be boring, but #2 WR's and TE's(still the most elusive creature for the Cardinals D for all of history, check the stats it's really hilarious and frustrating) will eat us for lunch.

FACT CHECK:

2012 Cards Defense Against different receivers:
1WR: 11th
2WR: 4th
TE: 15th

2011 Cards Defense Against Different Receivers:
1WR: 17th
2WR: 18th
TE: 17th

2010 Cards Defense Against Different Receivers:
1WR: 28th
2WR: 20th
TE: 8th

Individual bad games against elite TEs like Vernon Davis don't really tell the full story. Clearly our defense against TEs could get better, but they're not terrible.