Grant Amar'e his Wish

[elindholm]

The economics of handing out max contract is not an exact science by all means. Boston had 3 max contracts to win their championship last year, after sitting years on Pierce's with less merit I'd say than Amare's even.

I'd say that Pierce vs. Stoudemire is a tough call.

None of them is a franchise player of the caliber TD, Wade, LBJ, Kobe.

I think Garnett is.

However, the outcome justifies the spending in the end.

Sure, and if the opportunity came for the Suns to acquire a player "like Stoudemire" toward the end of his contract to try to gun for a championship, that would be fine.

In some sense, as long as you are a tradable asset on such a contract, the team is fine still, like when Marbury could be shipped to NY for our rebuilding.

But that was a miracle, made possible by finding a historically inept trading partner. All we can conclude from the Marbury extension is that the Suns made a mistake and managed to get away with it. Keep in mind that, had Isiah Thomas not swooped in to the Suns' rescue, they would have Marbury on the payroll even now!!

In any case, unless Amare goes down due to injury like Penny, he'd be at least a JJ and Dirk type of max player, not Lewis, Redd, Randolph like.

That's probably true, but don't you think the risk of injury is substantial?

As to Dirk then was already better than Amare now, I'd beg to differ. They weren't playing for nothing when Nash was on Mavs. Dirk was never seen more than a smooth shooter with an unguardable fallaway jumper from anywhere.

Look at http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/career_stats.html and see if you find an obvious jump in Nowitzki's stats when Nash left. It's not there; basically all he did was bounce back from an off year. And Nowitzki has always been a solid rebounder, better than Stoudemire.

As for the Nowitzki/Nash Mavericks, they made it out of the first round three times and were in the conference finals in '02-'03. Stoudemire, by comparison, has made it out of the first round only twice. What happened in the summer of 2004 was that Cuban panicked in reaction to a down year and decided he needed to get tougher defensively, thus the decision to let Nash go and spend the money on Dampier. Nowitzki is the same player he was before and the Mavericks lost their identity, similar to what happened when the Suns traded Marion for O'Neal.

On defense, which scoring PF is really better than Amare? Brand maybe? His help defense can't be fairly assessed due to Nash, who is quite uniquely bad.

This is too subjective to debate, but the ease with which opposing big men abuse Stoudemire in the post -- to say nothing of how many offensive rebounds they get -- suggests that Stoudemire's defensive problems don't have that much to do with Nash.

Well, that's exactly the part we need next season to evaluate, withou Nash dominating the ball.

You act as though Stoudemire has never been given opportunities in the post. How many times have we seen the Suns get Stoudemire the ball down low late in the game, only to have him get tangled up in his footwork, throw up a brick, and whine for a foul? Is that Nash's fault?

All in all, we don't seem to have any other option than to stick with Amare next season.

I agree.

Even with multiple high picks and great management, it took Blazers that long to be relevant again. Clippers, Bulls, Sonics, are all still the same despite those picks.

Absolutely. Being a successful franchise in the NBA, especially over the long term, is much harder than it looks. The Suns have inferior management, inferior ownership, and inferior talent. There won't be a quick fix. The question is whether you want to severely narrow the team's options by saddling them with an injury-prone, one-dimensional "scoring PF" whose best years are already behind him and who shows no commitment to getting better in the areas where he most needs work.

 

[cly2tw]

Look at http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/career_stats.html and see if you find an obvious jump in Nowitzki's stats when Nash left. It's not there; basically all he did was bounce back from an off year. And Nowitzki has always been a solid rebounder, better than Stoudemire.

This is too subjective to debate, but the ease with which opposing big men abuse Stoudemire in the post -- to say nothing of how many offensive rebounds they get -- suggests that Stoudemire's defensive problems don't have that much to do with Nash.

You act as though Stoudemire has never been given opportunities in the post. How many times have we seen the Suns get Stoudemire the ball down low late in the game, only to have him get tangled up in his footwork, throw up a brick, and whine for a foul? Is that Nash's fault?

1. I couldn't see Dirk winning MVP anytime down the career back then, whether the stats were equal or not. And he did later.

2. Amare is not a natural defender indeed. He needs extra effort and concentration to do that, which often isn't there. He is maybe comparable with Boozer and West but better than Randolph and Jamison on avg., with all of these better rebounders. My point was, playing behind Nash wouldn't exactly motivate him for extra effort unless it's playoffs or so.

3. People mostly learn by failure. Jefferson needed 3 years of failure. After 5 years, Dwight Howard with all the featuring devoted to him still isn't much better than Amare. On the Suns, there are too many other easy scoring options than Amare lowpost, and it's understandable that the team wouldn't want to give Amare many of such chances. And he himself has way more effective weapons to score than going low post too. Which bigman could score at will at lowpost right after a summer's drill in practice alone? All I wanna say is I don't believe we have been patient enough with this part of Amare's game to make a fair judgment yet. Also, IIRC, Karl Malone was not much of a low post PF either and scored mostly facing the basket.

 

[elindholm]

My point was, playing behind Nash wouldn't exactly motivate him for extra effort unless it's playoffs or so.

A leader does not use the shortcomings of his teammates as an excuse for poor motivation. To the contrary, he tries to inspire his teammates by setting the best example he can.

After 5 years, Dwight Howard with all the featuring devoted to him still isn't much better than Amare.

I can't guess what your threshold is for "much," but Howard averages 14 rebounds and 3 blocks per game (both leading the league) while anchoring one of the league's top defenses, plus scores almost 21 on .574 shooting. The scoring is about the same as Stoudemire's and everything else is "much" better. Stoudemire's only edge is at the free-throw line.

Also, IIRC, Karl Malone was not much of a low post PF either and scored mostly facing the basket.

That's true, although his footwork was better than Stoudemire's. Malone is a useful comparison because, like Stoudemire, most of his offense came from the pick and roll with a top point guard. He scored more than Stoudemire, but his team had fewer offensive options. He was not a great defender, but his fundamentals on defense weren't bad (as Stoudemire's are). Probably the biggest difference between the two is that Malone was exceptionally durable, a function of his game not being so heavily based on athleticism.

 

[sunsallday]

I have to agree. Also franchise players need to be able to stay healthy. This is the second season Amare has not been around come playoff time.

WTH! It wasn't Amare's fault that Doris Diaw poked him in the eyes during training camp. The only major injuries Stoudemire has had was the knee injury and the eye issue. I am willing to give Stoudemire a chance to be the ''man.'' Amare just had bad luck this year. All players go through some sort of injury. Look at D-Wade. Everyone was calling him done and said he would become the next T-Mac because of one season of multiple injuries. Look at D-Wade now, he is the best SG(IMO) in the league. It seems to me like you guys are finding anything to hate Amare on.

 

[Mainstreet]

WTH! It wasn't Amare's fault that Doris Diaw poked him in the eyes during training camp. The only major injuries Stoudemire has had was the knee injury and the eye issue. I am willing to give Stoudemire a chance to be the ''man.'' Amare just had bad luck this year. All players go through some sort of injury. Look at D-Wade. Everyone was calling him done and said he would become the next T-Mac because of one season of multiple injuries. Look at D-Wade now, he is the best SG(IMO) in the league. It seems to me like you guys are finding anything to hate Amare on.

I'm not assessing fault. Certainly Amare did not do anything to deserve his injuries. I'm just trying to look at the situation realistically. Amare now has two injuries (the micro-fracture and the eye injury) that likely will be of concern for the rest of his career. I worry about the Suns locking-up max type of money in a player that has a history of injury. I don't think Amare has earned such a max type contract if he were extended, but some team will likely give it to him if he opts out in 2010. I do not want to lose Amare for nothing.

 

[Chaplin]

I have to agree. Also franchise players need to be able to stay healthy. This is the second season Amare has not been around come playoff time.

You might be right about the franchise player thing--but bringing up the health thing is pretty unfair. It's not like he's out now because his knees are breaking down... He's not injury prone.

 

[cly2tw]

A leader does not use the shortcomings of his teammates as an excuse for poor motivation. To the contrary, he tries to inspire his teammates by setting the best example he can.

I can't guess what your threshold is for "much," but Howard averages 14 rebounds and 3 blocks per game (both leading the league) while anchoring one of the league's top defenses, plus scores almost 21 on .574 shooting. The scoring is about the same as Stoudemire's and everything else is "much" better. Stoudemire's only edge is at the free-throw line.

That's true, although his footwork was better than Stoudemire's. Malone is an useful comparison because, like Stoudemire, most of his offense came from the pick and roll with a top point guard. He scored more than Stoudemire, but his team had fewer offensive options. He was not a great defender, but his fundamentals on defense weren't bad (as Stoudemire's are). Probably the biggest difference between the two is that Malone was exceptionally durable, a function of his game not being so heavily based on athleticism.

Well, it might be too late already for Amare to become a leader after being used to be the "sidekick" for too long.

Regarding Dwight, I was referring to his postup games, not general stats. For someone without a jumper, he has had tons of more chances to work on it in games but I don't think he is much better at it.

Thanks for confirming my memory about Malone. I have him as a rather average defender in my memory too. He improved it in the later years of his career though. It's the rule that many players become victims of their own strength, be it athleticm, smooth jumper or whatever. Amare's slow improvement on defense and lowpost is definitely partiallly due to his otehr strength like athleticm and faceup shooting/drives. However, I always say God closes a door, but always also open another one for you and vice versa. Nash lacks athleticm but found a way to excel by doing fine optimization work on his moves. Many more are too reliant on their athletic ability and never put in further work and fail in the end. You always wonder what an athlet like Marbury could accomplish were he to emulate Nash! The world is quite fair in some sense.

 

[shazaam6]

Amare's problem is he said he would like to be great and isn't.(ooh big crime, burn the witch) So let's trade him because he may never be a franchise player and he and his agent will ask for max money.

Just offer him what he is worth and stop worrying about he will want max money. Sheesh.

He is a scorer and not really a defender. He can defend. His best moments are blocking shots.
Brad Miller
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8tAuwsFyac

Tim Duncan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D476c0VxcQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwCRjxzBXF4&feature=related

Dwight Howard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4hjqd7zsgo&feature=related

Lamar Odom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1FIzmYMzE8&feature=related

 

[Mainstreet]

You might be right about the franchise player thing--but bringing up the health thing is pretty unfair. It's not like he's out now because his knees are breaking down... He's not injury prone.

I can't see how pointing out facts is unfair. I like Amare as a player but injuries have impacted his career thus far. Before the micro-fracture, Amare could have well been a franchise player based upon almost talent alone. His talent was off the chart. I remember when he literally just threw the ball down threw the basket instead of dunking it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Amare's problem is he said he would like to be great and isn't.(ooh big crime, burn the witch) So let's trade him because he may never be a franchise player and he and his agent will ask for max money.

Just offer him what he is worth and stop worrying about he will want max money. Sheesh.

Because somebody will offer him max money if he opts out in 2010 and I would like the Suns to get some return value coming back.

 

[cly2tw]

I can't see how pointing out facts is unfair. I like Amare as a player but injuries have impacted his career thus far. Before the micro-fracture, Amare could have well been a franchise player based upon almost talent alone. His talent was off the chart. I remember when he literally just threw the ball down threw the basket instead of dunking it.

It's unfair if the fact is irrelevant for your argument. It's like saying JJ fell on his face and missed the rest of the playoffs was reason enough to believe he'd be likely often injured from then out and wouldn't be able to justify a big contract. Amare's injury this season is even less due to something he did wrong, while JJ's was potentially partially due to fatique.

It's one thing you don't want to give Amare a max contract. But you don't need to resort to every unfortunate issue around him to pseudo justify your preference.

Because somebody will offer him max money if he opts out in 2010 and I would like the Suns to get some return value coming back.

It looks like they are not getting much offered for him. The way the economy looks like, he must be pretty damn convincing next season to get a max offer somewhere. If so, you will find a good trade for him around the deadline. Either that, or you want to build around him on a max yourself.

 

[Chaplin]

I can't see how pointing out facts is unfair. I like Amare as a player but injuries have impacted his career thus far. Before the micro-fracture, Amare could have well been a franchise player based upon almost talent alone. His talent was off the chart. I remember when he literally just threw the ball down threw the basket instead of dunking it.

He wasn't a lockdown defensive player before his microfracture--that is clearly his biggest fault, so bringing up the health stuff doesn't mean anything at all.

 

[Andrew]

I still say give this current roster one more chance...

 

[jandaman]

Well since Suns have little choice next season, unless through trades.

As Andrew said, one more season to try out and just re-build when O'Neal and Nash comes off the books.

Unless of course, some teams are willing to give young prospects and picks for O'Neal's and Nash's combined 30 Million expiring contract after next season.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

33 million*

 

[Sunburn]

He wasn't a lockdown defensive player before his microfracture--that is clearly his biggest fault, so bringing up the health stuff doesn't mean anything at all.

It did seem like he had the ability to just carry a game though back then. I don't get the same feeling now watching him play. I really think the surgeries affected him more than people like to admit.

 

[Covert Rain]

He wants to be the unquestionable leader of this team. He's seen what the Heat have done around Wade and Cavs around LBJ. If you remove Nash and Shaq and put the "C" on his jersery then the success/failure of this team rests on his shoulders, no excuses.

There are no excuses now. Amare has been the primary option on this team already. He has been our go to guy before. You can't just be the "man" because you wish it. You have to prove you're the man on the court. So far, Amare dissappears to often on the boards and defense to be the "man".

How many wishes does Amare get? Amare is the one that didn't want to play center. Amare is the one that wanted to be moved back to PF and bring in a legit center. He got his wish. Amare is one of the players that were vocal about things needing to change in the offseason and said they needed to focus more on defense. The Suns tried that.

Wade and Lebron play on both ends of the court. Amare is not in the same class as either of those players. Amare should be less focused on "labels" (such as the "C" on his jersey) and more focused on improving his game on the other side of the ball if he wants to be a real captain on this team.

 

[Quagmire]

Wade and Lebron play on both ends of the court. Amare is not in the same class as either of those players. Amare should be less focused on "labels" (such as the "C" on his jersey) and more focused on improving his game on the other side of the ball if he wants to be a real captain on this team.

I agree with most of your points. Amare shouldn't be given the reigns of this team without earning them. He's been surrounded by league MVPs his entire career and has used that as a crutch. It would be difficult for anybody to overcome Nash and Shaq as the leader of this team. Step one would have been improving his own game, especially on the defensive end.

Will Amare step up when you remove all his excuses, or will he come up with more?
Would Baron Davis challenge Amare as the leader or would he fit into his role? How effective could they be at the pick-n-roll if they were surrounded by shooters (mid-range: Hill & Camby, outside the arc: JRich, Barbosa, Barnes...)?

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Captains earn their position, not demand it.

 

[slinslin]

Hard to earn it vs 2 time MVP, Shaq and Grant Hill when you are still a young guy..

 

[Covert Rain]

Hard to earn it vs 2 time MVP, Shaq and Grant Hill when you are still a young guy..

So your saying a player can't be at his best just because another great player is on the floor? Better tell that to the Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs on all the other teams that had multiple great players on the same team. If Amare brought it on both ends, nobody would question if he should be the man. Nash and Shaq don't hold Amare's defense back. There are plenty of rebounds to get despite Shaq. Amare holds Amare back.

 

[Blackification]

'

So your saying a player can't be at his best just because another great player is on the floor? Better tell that to the Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs on all the other teams that had multiple great players on the teams.

How exactly is he going to earn it when he is being misused by his coach and being blamed as a scapegoat? He did a good job earning it last year when he was used properly but this year terry porter made the team vote and they voted for shaq to get his captain and porter used amare as a role player. Hard to be a captain when you are being used as a role player.

 

[Covert Rain]

How exactly is he going to earn it when he is being misused by his coach and being blamed as a scapegoat? He did a good job earning it last year when he was used properly but this year terry porter made the team vote and they voted for shaq to get his captain and porter used amare as a role player. Hard to be a captain when you are being used as a role player.

Misused? Amare was the main man under D'Antoni and had plenty of opportunity to prove himself. Hardly misused. Amare was still a primary option on this offense (especially when Shaq was on the bench).

Scapegoat? Amare said before the season he wants to be the man. He then followed up those statements with eradic play.

Doing a good job means playing on both ends which Amare has not done since the start of his career.

Amare still led the team in touches with the basketball. When is the last time a role player did that?

 

[cly2tw]

So your saying a player can't be at his best just because another great player is on the floor? Better tell that to the Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs on all the other teams that had multiple great players on the same team. If Amare brought it on both ends, nobody would question if he should be the man. Nash and Shaq don't hold Amare's defense back. There are plenty of rebounds to get despite Shaq. Amare holds Amare back.

You probably meant if Amare brought it on both ends like Nash did, didn't you?

 

[shazaam6]

Porter was running the offense through Shaq at the beginning. Amare is our dominating offensive player but many were questioning the forcing it into Shaq over and over. Gosh some have selective memory .......never frickin mind. Season is over. Believe what you want. Amare sucks. Wahoo.



Just kidding.