Graves ought to let the fans draft

Cbus cardsfan

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I have been around this and the previous board for about 4 years and i think us fans could have drafted better than the Cards.I know alot of people wnted Charles Woodson over Wadsworth,Urlacher over Jones,Shaun Rogers in round 2, Leftwich/Suggs over Pace,David Terrell(oops,that was me),and the list goes on.Instead we got stuck with 2nd round picks like Stone,Kvb and hardly any of ou 3rd rounders are around.How can the Cards front ofice be so inept.Just let us decide who to draft and that will get this thing turned around.Who do we want next year for the #1 overall pick?
 

arthurracoon

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I think it improved a little this year...

Pace has been pretty good, and Boldin is amazing.
Kenny King has looked good as has Reggie Wells.
BJ is ok, and Sullivan could/will probably mold him into a good WR.
 

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Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
I have been around this and the previous board for about 4 years and i think us fans could have drafted better than the Cards.I know alot of people wnted Charles Woodson over Wadsworth,Urlacher over Jones,Shaun Rogers in round 2, Leftwich/Suggs over Pace,David Terrell(oops,that was me),and the list goes on.Instead we got stuck with 2nd round picks like Stone,Kvb and hardly any of ou 3rd rounders are around.How can the Cards front ofice be so inept.Just let us decide who to draft and that will get this thing turned around.Who do we want next year for the #1 overall pick?

Evidently, someone suffers from "delusions of adequacy"...:D
 

Dback Jon

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Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
I have been around this and the previous board for about 4 years and i think us fans could have drafted better than the Cards.I know alot of people wnted Charles Woodson over Wadsworth,Urlacher over Jones,Shaun Rogers in round 2, Leftwich/Suggs over Pace,David Terrell(oops,that was me),and the list goes on.Instead we got stuck with 2nd round picks like Stone,Kvb and hardly any of ou 3rd rounders are around.How can the Cards front ofice be so inept.Just let us decide who to draft and that will get this thing turned around.Who do we want next year for the #1 overall pick?

At the draft party at Rockin Rodeo, there would have been a lynch mob if the Cards had picked anyone BUT Wadsworth. The fans definately would have picked Wads over Woodson.

As for Urlacher - well, a lot of fans were dismissing him as well, because "he only played at New Mexico". That year, the fans would have picked a RB, because that was perceived as our biggest need.

I think Graves did a great job this year - while Leftwich may be good, I will gladly take Boldin/Johnson/Pace. T-Fizzle - no thanks.

Hindsight is great, but proves little.
 

Stout

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Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Dback Jon
I think Graves did a great job this year - while Leftwich may be good, I will gladly take Boldin/Johnson/Pace. T-Fizzle - no thanks.

Er, I have to point out, you're quite wrong here. It should be this:

You would gladly take Johnson and Pace than Leftwich and a fourth-rounder we could have had.

We would have had Boldin any way because we traded BACK, not forward, in the second round as part of the deal.

That's a WORLD of difference. I'd take Boldin/Johnson/Pace over just Lefty, sure, but that wasn't reality. In reality, we could have had Lefty, Boldin and a 4th rounder. THAT I would take in a heartbeat over what we took. Not saying we did poorly in who we selected, but I'd rather have the latter.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Stout
Er, I have to point out, you're quite wrong here. It should be this:

I think that it would be more appropriate if you changed your screen name to "Weak". :D
 

Stout

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I think that it would be more appropriate if you changed your screen name to "Weak". :D

Uh, okay...then I think your screen name should be changed to "Insulting Troll"?

I don't know where this came from. Someone posted a factual mistake. I corrected it. How is that 'weak'? Why does that give you a right to...never mind. You won't listen anyway. :rolleyes:
 

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Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
I have been around this and the previous board for about 4 years and i think us fans could have drafted better than the Cards.I know alot of people wnted Charles Woodson over Wadsworth,Urlacher over Jones

Wrong.

Everybody in the NFL thought Wadsworth was a class pick. Nobody knew his knees would not hold up to the stress.

Sure with hindsight Urlacher would have been the better pick, it's always easy to use the godd old 20/20 vision one gets from looking back. What you neglected to mention was

a) TJ was widely expected to be a solid NFL RB
b) The Cards did not have a reliable RB in Pittman. At the time he was running well until he had the next collision,. Nobody was sure Pittman would finish a game let alone a season. So we took what appeared to be the best RB in the draft.
 

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Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
i think us fans could have drafted better than the Cards.


Sure, I see how "us fans" agree on so many things here on this board, I can just imagine things in the Cards War Room with "us fans" on the clock next year. You think the Vikings looked silly.....
 

green machine

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Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
I have been around this and the previous board for about 4 years and i think us fans could have drafted better than the Cards.I know alot of people wnted Charles Woodson over Wadsworth,Urlacher over Jones,Shaun Rogers in round 2, Leftwich/Suggs over Pace,David Terrell(oops,that was me),and the list goes on.Instead we got stuck with 2nd round picks like Stone,Kvb and hardly any of ou 3rd rounders are around.How can the Cards front ofice be so inept.Just let us decide who to draft and that will get this thing turned around.Who do we want next year for the #1 overall pick?

:trout:
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I think that it would be more appropriate if you changed your screen name to "Weak". :D


I agree with Stout. I'd much rather have Leftwich, Boldin, and say Justin Gage, Rien Long, etc. It turned out ok for us, but given that this team wasn't going to do much this year, and the turnstile of QB's we've had since Lomax retired, I would have much rather taken Leftwich. He may be the best player in this draft, and plays the most important position in football. I don't think we will ever do much until we get a good, young QB in here. Blake is a pretty good quarterback, but by the time the rest of the holes are fixed he'll be retired then we'll be searching for a QB again. Just not completely sold on McNown or Parsons at this point, and even if they turn out ok, I don't think they will ever be as good as Lefty is going to be.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by HookemCards
I agree with Stout. I'd much rather have Leftwich, Boldin, and say Justin Gage, Rien Long, etc. It turned out ok for us, but given that this team wasn't going to do much this year, and the turnstile of QB's we've had since Lomax retired, I would have much rather taken Leftwich. He may be the best player in this draft, and plays the most important position in football. I don't think we will ever do much until we get a good, young QB in here. Blake is a pretty good quarterback, but by the time the rest of the holes are fixed he'll be retired then we'll be searching for a QB again. Just not completely sold on McNown or Parsons at this point, and even if they turn out ok, I don't think they will ever be as good as Lefty is going to be.

That's why we need to draft Vince Young when he comes out!

What do you think is Mock going to be the QB all year? And how can a defense with that much talent give up that many rushing yards to Arkansas? I didn't see the game but from the highlights it just seemed like one big play after another from Cobbs and Jones.

I do agree, BLake is an excellent stopgap player but if McCown is not the answer, we're going to be right back where we were in the offseason.

It was quite clear we had no intent of taking Leftwich so I didn't mention him a lot, but I do think the should have taken Suggs crowd is going to be a lot easier to appease than the should have taken Leftwich crowd because Byron is going to be GREAT for a long time.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Stout
Er, I have to point out, you're quite wrong here. It should be this:

You would gladly take Johnson and Pace than Leftwich and a fourth-rounder we could have had.

We would have had Boldin any way because we traded BACK, not forward, in the second round as part of the deal.

That's a WORLD of difference. I'd take Boldin/Johnson/Pace over just Lefty, sure, but that wasn't reality. In reality, we could have had Lefty, Boldin and a 4th rounder. THAT I would take in a heartbeat over what we took. Not saying we did poorly in who we selected, but I'd rather have the latter.

I, too, would much rather have had Lefty, Bolding and a fourth.
 

Wild Card

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Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by nidan
Sure with hindsight Urlacher would have been the better pick, it's always easy to use the godd old 20/20 vision one gets from looking back.

Nidan:

You're close enough to the team to know that there was significant disagreement over the use of this pick. As I understand it, the Cardinals decison-makers were split down the middle on Urlacher vs Jones. No question, Thomas Jones was rated among the top RB prospects in that draft, but Brian Urlacher was thought to be--correctly, as it turns out--a special player.

Sure, hindsight is perfect. But I remember screaming at the TV screen when the Cards took Jones.

WC
 

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As for Urlacher - well, a lot of fans were dismissing him as well, because "he only played at New Mexico". That year, the fans would have picked a RB, because that was perceived as our biggest need.

We should have gambled on Pittman's health and picked up Urlacher. I was screaming at the TV when we picked Jones; I though he looked just like Murrell, where as Urlacher could be used as a DE, FB, or LB. I thought he should have been the guy, but, oh well.

I think if Pittman didn't have that damn turf toe incident after he ran all over Detriot, the need for a RB wouldn't have looked so serious.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Wild Card
Nidan:

You're close enough to the team to know that there was significant disagreement over the use of this pick. As I understand it, the Cardinals decison-makers were split down the middle on Urlacher vs Jones. No question, Thomas Jones was rated among the top RB prospects in that draft, but Brian Urlacher was thought to be--correctly, as it turns out--a special player.

Sure, hindsight is perfect. But I remember screaming at the TV screen when the Cards took Jones.

WC

Unfortunatly, I'm not that close and what we do get is only started this year. Hopefully we will get more info as time and relationships progress.

Using my personal hidnsight scope, I was never interested in Suggs but I 'might' have gone for Lefty. I do like what we got but I might have gone the QB route.
 

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Originally posted by Oran
We should have gambled on Pittman's health and picked up Urlacher.

It's clear you were correct, but you could just have easily been dead wrong
 

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Originally posted by nidan
It's clear you were correct, but you could just have easily been dead wrong

I agree. I was definitely against Urlacher at the time, though I wanted Alexander over Jones. Still, I thought Jones would work out. Oh well.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Russ Smith
That's why we need to draft Vince Young when he comes out!

What do you think is Mock going to be the QB all year? And how can a defense with that much talent give up that many rushing yards to Arkansas? I didn't see the game but from the highlights it just seemed like one big play after another from Cobbs and Jones.

I do agree, BLake is an excellent stopgap player but if McCown is not the answer, we're going to be right back where we were in the offseason.

It was quite clear we had no intent of taking Leftwich so I didn't mention him a lot, but I do think the should have taken Suggs crowd is going to be a lot easier to appease than the should have taken Leftwich crowd because Byron is going to be GREAT for a long time.

Mock played well in the Arkansas game, but we couldn't run or stop the run. Mock looks to be pretty good, and I'm really glad they red-shirted Young last year, otherwise we would have had another Simms-Applewhile contraversy. I would imagine Mock will start all year, and unless Young gets much better in the passing game by this spring, Mock will start next year. Then in Young's junior year he will be the starter, and will have had plenty of time to learn the system.

Don't get me started on the talent level on the Horns. I was and still am kind of a Mack supporter, simply because of how far we have come since he has got here. But it is becoming pretty obvious that he isn't a top notch "coach". Every year Stoops coaches him into oblivion. His teams always seem to be a bit soft, and the players only improve marginally. Derrick Johnson played great as a freshman and everyone thought he was going to be all world, 2 years later he still doesn't wrap up when he tackles. I know a few years ago when Mike Williams was drafted there was question about his technique coming out of school and most "experts" agree that Simms will be a very good Pro QB once he gets some NFL coaching. Anyone know if there are NCAA rules against having a recruiting "coach" and a head "Football coach" in a program.

Arkansas simply outplayed us, and are a better team than many expected. And once again Mack Brown got exposed by an opposing teams coach.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by HookemCards
Arkansas simply outplayed us, and are a better team than many expected. And once again Mack Brown got exposed by an opposing teams coach.

SOOOOOOEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
 

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Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Stout
Er, I have to point out, you're quite wrong here. It should be this:

You would gladly take Johnson and Pace than Leftwich and a fourth-rounder we could have had.

We would have had Boldin any way because we traded BACK, not forward, in the second round as part of the deal.

That's a WORLD of difference. I'd take Boldin/Johnson/Pace over just Lefty, sure, but that wasn't reality. In reality, we could have had Lefty, Boldin and a 4th rounder. THAT I would take in a heartbeat over what we took. Not saying we did poorly in who we selected, but I'd rather have the latter.


CARDS picks: Johnson, Pace, Boldin, Hayes (4 picks on day one in the first 100)

Your scenario: Lefty, Boldin, Hayes (for the sake of argument) - and a day two Fourth rounder out the first 100.

In the end, we are without JOHNSON and PACE - who are replaced by the "gem' of a fourth rounder who the league has passed on three plus times at the draft.


I think I can live with Graves' supposed incompetence...
 
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Russ Smith

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Northern Card
CARDS picks: Johnson, Pace, Boldin, Hayes (4 picks on day one in the first 100)

Your scenario: Lefty, Boldin, Hayes (for the sake of argument) - and a day two Fourth rounder out the first 100.

In the end, we are without JOHNSON and PACE - who are replaced by the "gem' of a fourth rounder who the league has passed on three plus times at the draft.


I think I can live with Graves' supposed incompetence...

Except that in the other scenario you can now trade Josh McCown for another pick or player because you have both Blake, and Leftwich on your roster.

In fact if we believe the ESPN guys we could have drafted Pace with the 2nd pick and used the 3rd and Josh to get Boldin (-:
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Graves ought to let the fans draft

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Except that in the other scenario you can now trade Josh McCown for another pick or player because you have both Blake, and Leftwich on your roster.

In fact if we believe the ESPN guys we could have drafted Pace with the 2nd pick and used the 3rd and Josh to get Boldin (-:

It's all "if" and "but"... however, I was dealing specifically with what had been suggested in the post.

As for the ESPN point: Well, we've heard a number of times from PACE, and others - that he expected to go in the first round. The rush on defensive players in that round probably made that a certainty.
 
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Tangodnzr

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All this supposition regarding Leftwich (or any talk of drafting another college QB) would still seem to be based on the theory that McCown is not the long term answer.

So far, it would also appear that the Cards still feel that he might be. There has never been anything intimated otherwise at all.

Some people have criticized the team for not playing McCown more last year. I certainly was not one of them. When the Cards drafted McCown they knew what they were getting. Using that maahvelous hindsight (which in this case is foresight). . . Jake still had a year left on his contract. He had finished up the latter part of the 2001 season fairly strongly, and even some of his harshest critics were easing up a bit. Josh was drafted as a talented project from day 1... I would say a nice long term insurance project regardless of what was to evolve in regards to Jake.

In spite of what many have espoused I don't think it was etched in stone that Jake was leaving, even after the season ended.
I believe that last year was to be the determining factor as to the direction the team would be going in regard to Jake. By the end of the year, I think it was, for the most part, evident to just about everyone that - as long as a suitable replacement could be found- that it was probably to both the Team's and Jake's best interest to go separate directions.
But there were a couple of major caveats here. .
After the devastating losses to the Raiders and Chiefs and the losing streak, Jake was still being judged (at that point) and was still the best bet to win. No one in their right mind realistically expected McCown to be ready this year. So why throw the kid to the wolves at that point? Salvaging overall team confidence by staying competitive and not just "throwing in the towel" took priority over rushing Josh into something he wasn't expected to be ready for anyway. In fact may even have set him back more than helped him.
After the season ended, the team didn't just toss Jake. They gave him a contract offer, with strings attached. I was taught, in business, by one of my mentors "you don't throw the old razor blade away UNTIL you have a new one to replace it."
Even after he went to Denver, even Jake, himself, didn't immediately jump on the offer, he was still giving lip service to "giving the Cards an opportunity to counter any offer" or words to that effect.
In the meantime Kordell had been brought in, made a lukewarm offer to - EVERYONE still trying to hedge as many bets as possible.
Jake was supposed to go to Chicago also, while at the same time, Blake had come in. Jake then announced his signing in Denver. The Cards jumped on Blake. Kordell got the booby prize.
Through all this nothing has changed in regard to McCown.
He's still a viable possibility, at least to the Cards, and that's what really counts.
I predict McCown will indeed get playing time here and there this year...he's already ahead of schedule there, and has been a pleasant surprise with his progress. I see maybe Josh getting some consideration as a starter during training camp next year, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Blake still the man, with Josh starting to get the majority of the playing time and starting sometime during the year next year.

By the end of this year, I say the Cards will have proven to themselves, at least whether Josh is indeed the man of the future. If not....THEN they can look to the draft, yet still knowing they have Blake.....and Parsons.
 

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