GREAT Jack McCallum article on Matrix

[TucsonDevil]

I hope they ship him to New York, to experience what a 'poorly' run franchise is like...

 

[nashman]

Phx fans geesh! Guy bust his ass his entire career here and you all forget that so quickly.

 

[slinslin]

Phx fans geesh! Guy bust his ass his entire career here and you all forget that so quickly.

You forgot

- He whined a lot
- He didnt show that hunger to become the best like Amare did, basically Shawn Marion never improved after this 3rd year in the league, when he really needed to improve ballhandling and such
- His ineffectivness against the Spurs may have cost us 2 or 3 series
- He blocked a trade before asking to be traded, a trade that may have gotten us Kevin Garnett and made us the most favored team to win it all since Jordan's Bulls
- He was overpaid for a long time and still wants a raise

 

[pokerface]

Phx fans geesh! Guy bust his ass his entire career here and you all forget that so quickly.

Someday they'll turn on Amare too...

 

[CaptainInsano]

Someday they'll turn on Amare too...

When it comes to Joe Johnson vs Sarver, I would say people are split 50/50 on what side they are on.

When it comes to marion, everybody except I think you and one or two other people are pretty pissed.

So, basically what I am saying is don't generalize people so much, marion is a freakin' whiner and he is really screwing us over here, so the board has turned against him.

If amare puts up 12-15 million numbers and asks for 20 million, then yeah it might be a possibility, but please don't jump to conclusions about people here...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Someday they'll turn on Amare too...

really? did everyone turn on KJ also at the end of his career? Because that's the Amare equivalent on this team. A guy basically born and raised here and who led the charge for the team right out of the gate, helping establish them as instant contenders and always playing well in the playoffs (sans the Bulls series for KJ... oye). People loved KJ till he retired and then loved him again when he unretired.. you know why? Because he was a Sun who loved the team and did anything he could for it to win and was one of two guys responsible for it getting to 3 conference champion series, one finals and multiple playoff series wins, as opposed to Shawn who never helped the team accomplish crap until he was given an MVP and a 1st Team All-NBA C to play with, not to mention being a crying primadonna who always shrinks in the biggest games.

 

[nashman]

Marion is now screwing us over? Please its a sport and he wants to get paid and if PHX doesn't want to extend him or trade him somewhere he would accept then screw em'. Our front office doesn't have the reputation of helping players out so why the hell should he say sure I will go to freaking boston to make you guys happy, thats just silly. He is doing the same thing all athletes do and trying to get more money, so what. He is not saying he is not going to play for us or anything and has done nothing but be a consistant performer for PHX since the day he signed. Some of you need to calm down and view this like a rational adult instead of an insane, pissed off fan!

 

[CaptainInsano]

Marion is now screwing us over? Please its a sport and he wants to get paid and if PHX doesn't want to extend him or trade him somewhere he would accept then screw em'. Our front office doesn't have the reputation of helping players out so why the hell should he say sure I will go to freaking boston to make you guys happy, thats just silly. He is doing the same thing all athletes do and trying to get more money, so what. He is not saying he is not going to play for us or anything and has done nothing but be a consistant performer for PHX since the day he signed. Some of you need to calm down and view this like a rational adult instead of an insane, pissed off fan!

Considering the KG thing, and now still wanting a trade when the doors were wide open before, and the timing of it all I would say he is DEFINATELY screwing us.

How can he NOT be screwing us with what he is doing, thats my question?!?

And if he still plays with us now we have the devil on our shoulders whispering to us about how shawn will be lazy this shawn will be lazy that. Shawn will ruin chemistry, shawn will play a hard season and just drop out on the playoffs etc.

It will mess with the fans AND the organization when everybody is worried about shawn during the season.

 

[nowagimp]

Phx fans geesh! Guy bust his ass his entire career here and you all forget that so quickly.

Yeah sports fans sure have changed. Matrix hangs 17/10 on the best team in the league and he's a dog. After all he only hung 24/17 in 48 minutes on the spurs while guarding TP when Amare and Diaw were suspended. He just plain ran out of gas. When amare was injured, and didnt know if he could return, and talking about life after basketball , he was a psycho head case as well. People were calling for trading him, look it up. Before barbosa learned the offense, he was suggested trade bait for mediocre talent in return. Use em up and throw em away, they arent people just fantasy basketball figures. Frankly, Matrix has hustled his whole career, he's a hustle player. Now Vince Carter is a real(admitted) dog. TMAC has a huge contract and sits out alot, so does Odom, gets paid for alot of DNP's, has made at least 10-20 million riding the pines in his career. Kobe is a great talent, but a REAL head case, only a zenmaster can get him to share the ball. Dwade fell down(or got knocked down) one too many times he just aint the same DWADE anymore. Check Lebrons numbers against the spurs in the finals, pretty pathetic for an "all world" guy. Carmelo plays NO D at all, a dog on D. All these guys have flaws, including matrix. Some fans are so "tired of matrix complaining", but he's not allowed to be tired of hearing he's trade bait every year. No player will hang around as perennial trade bait and not get tired of it, name one who has. McCallum is right, you just cant dangle a guy out there all the time and expect him to shrug it off.

"Dont it always seem to go, you dont know what youve got till its gone .... "

 

[elindholm]

Wow, what an incredible amount of misconception crammed into one post. Historic.

After all he only hung 24/17 in 48 minutes on the spurs while guarding TP when Amare and Diaw were suspended. He just plain ran out of gas.

No. He posted all of his numbers in the first half, then re-disappeared when the Spurs woke up and started paying attention to him. He had at least 20 points at halftime, so you can do the math. Marion is never gassed in the third quarter.

When amare was injured, and didnt know if he could return, and talking about life after basketball , he was a psycho head case as well. People were calling for trading him, look it up.

True, but Stoudemire has never complained about his contract or asked to be traded. And he certainly doesn't whine constantly about not getting the respect he deserves.

Before barbosa learned the offense, he was suggested trade bait for mediocre talent in return.

Before Barbosa was moved to SG full-time, you mean.

Use em up and throw em away, they arent people just fantasy basketball figures.

You can't be serious. They get paid eight figures a year to win basketball games. If there's a way to win more games by trading someone, you do it. It's not personal. Any competitive business is constantly looking at ways to upgrade its personnel.

so does Odom, gets paid for alot of DNP's, has made at least 10-20 million riding the pines in his career.

What a fascinating number. Odom has played eight years, meaning that he has been on his big contract for four. Over those four years, he has missed a total of 48 games. How do you prorate 48 games into "at least 10-20 million"?

Kobe is a great talent, but a REAL head case, only a zenmaster can get him to share the ball.

Actually, Bryant has played better for every coach other than Jackson. Just look at his recent performance with the U. S. team.

Check Lebrons numbers against the spurs in the finals, pretty pathetic for an "all world" guy.

I'm not sold on James yet either, but the guy's only 22. Let's not close the book just yet.

Some fans are so "tired of matrix complaining", but he's not allowed to be tired of hearing he's trade bait every year. No player will hang around as perennial trade bait and not get tired of it, name one who has.

Pretty myopic. Actually it's very common for a big-name player to say, "Yeah, I hear the rumors, and it's distracting, but you have to remember that this is a business and then just go out and play."

Does Marion's complaining help the team win games? Isn't that his job? If you start to underperform at your job, what do you think should happen?

"Dont it always seem to go, you dont know what youve got till its gone .... "

You're big on rhetoric and very low on facts. If you want to pursuade anyone, you'd better do some research.

 

[fordronken]

You're big on rhetoric and very low on facts. If you want to pursuade anyone, you'd better do some research.

Geez Eric. If a Joni Mitchell quote isn't relevant in a thread about Shawn Marion, I don't know what is.

 

[nowagimp]

Wow, what an incredible amount of misconception crammed into one post. Historic.



No. He posted all of his numbers in the first half, then re-disappeared when the Spurs woke up and started paying attention to him. He had at least 20 points at halftime, so you can do the math. Marion is never gassed in the third quarter.



True, but Stoudemire has never complained about his contract or asked to be traded. And he certainly doesn't whine constantly about not getting the respect he deserves.



Before Barbosa was moved to SG full-time, you mean.



You can't be serious. They get paid eight figures a year to win basketball games. If there's a way to win more games by trading someone, you do it. It's not personal. Any competitive business is constantly looking at ways to upgrade its personnel.



What a fascinating number. Odom has played eight years, meaning that he has been on his big contract for four. Over those four years, he has missed a total of 48 games. How do you prorate 48 games into "at least 10-20 million"?



Actually, Bryant has played better for every coach other than Jackson. Just look at his recent performance with the U. S. team.



I'm not sold on James yet either, but the guy's only 22. Let's not close the book just yet.



Pretty myopic. Actually it's very common for a big-name player to say, "Yeah, I hear the rumors, and it's distracting, but you have to remember that this is a business and then just go out and play."

Does Marion's complaining help the team win games? Isn't that his job? If you start to underperform at your job, what do you think should happen?



You're big on rhetoric and very low on facts. If you want to pursuade anyone, you'd better do some research.

For a guy whos stated precisely NO facts in his rebuttal post, none at all, you are an amazingly blind judge. But then I forget you are incapable of judging your own behavior and take no criticsm without immediate subjective rebuttal, no reflective thought process at all. I said marion put down 24/17 and was gassed you say he wasnt gassed, fact?? Fact he put down 24/17, rebut?? Your rebut: you know of the physical state of marion as fact, prove your fact einstein. Lamar odom has missed nearly 140 games in his career of 8 years(510/650). What about Lebron? he disappeared, and age was your excuse, its weak. He disappeared like you say marion did. The difference is I realize the TEAM defense of the spurs made it happen, just like with shawn, you dont have a clue, none at all.

 

[pokerface]

What are we supposed to hate on Marion about? I dont expect ANYONE to be perfect for me to support them. Everyone has issues but Marion has been here producing on a high level for years. So he's felt a little underappreciated once in awhile....so he wants finish out his career on a decent team and make as much as he can....thats normal stuff in my mind. He no more of a whiner than many on this board....he's no more greedy than many on this board. I appreciate his game and dont hate on him for what he isn't. His time here may be coming to an end but I absolutely positively will NOT hate him. He's been too good for too long and I appreciate his unique game and his good natured attitude. Some on here need to let the business part run its course and let Marion and management work it out for themsleves.

 

[elindholm]

For a guy whos stated precisely NO facts in his rebuttal post, none at all, you are an amazingly blind judge.

Jeez, do I have to spell them out for you? Here's a hint: look for the bold red type.

But then I forget you are incapable of judging your own behavior and take no criticsm without immediate subjective rebuttal, no reflective thought process at all.

Excellent, go straight for an ad hominem attack. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Do you read my exchanges with other thoughtful posters like F-Dog, fordronken, slinslin, and many others? We often disagree, but we're able to stay on topic, and we're able to address one another's points within the accepted realm of intellectual discourse.

Besides, you're the one with the sob story about how we "throw away" these poor, sensitive people who aren't just "fantasy players." Seriously, have you ever held down a job? Do you know what it's like to be responsible to an employer?

I said marion put down 24/17 and was gassed you say he wasnt gassed, fact?? Fact he put down 24/17, rebut?? Your rebut: you know of the physical state of marion as fact, prove your fact einstein.

No, I know that (a) as a fact, Marion routinely plays 40+ minutes per game, and that the most he could have played by halftime is 24; (b) as a fact, that Marion did nearly all of his scoring in the first half; and (c) the Spurs paid much more attention to Marion in the second half than they did in the first. I know (c) because I watched the game, so I guess you could call that subjective, although no reasonable person would disagree with my assessment. (a) and (b) are pure, cold, hard facts.

Lamar odom has missed nearly 140 games in his career of 8 years(510/650).

Yes, but the fact is that more than half of those games were when he was on his rookie contract. Do you dispute that? You made the point that he has made "at least 10-20 million" sitting out. His salary data contradict that claim, factually.

What about Lebron? he disappeared, and age was your excuse, its weak. He disappeared like you say marion did.

James has "disappeared" in a deep playoff series once, because in fact, he has gone deep in the playoffs only once. Marion has done it more times than any of us can count. The fact is that it is commonplace for players to show some skittishness and immaturity the first time they go deep in the playoffs. I don't know whether James will overcome that or not, but the fact is that he is in good company.

The difference is I realize the TEAM defense of the spurs made it happen, just like with shawn, you dont have a clue, none at all.

Ah, so it's a grudge match. You lost the earlier argument, and now you're trying to settle the score.

Let me give you a piece of advice: Wait until I'm wrong. It will happen. When it does, I'll acknowledge it. But if you try to argue with me when I am right, you will lose.

 

[fordronken]

Let me give you a piece of advice: Wait until I'm wrong. It will happen. When it does, I'll acknowledge it. But if you try to argue with me when I am right, you will lose.

Wow. This whole interchange was great, but that last paragraph was classic. I kind of want to make it my signature. Only I'll quote you as "ElindHighlander".

 

[arwillan]

What are we supposed to hate on Marion about? I dont expect ANYONE to be perfect for me to support them. Everyone has issues but Marion has been here producing on a high level for years. So he's felt a little underappreciated once in awhile....so he wants finish out his career on a decent team and make as much as he can....thats normal stuff in my mind. He no more of a whiner than many on this board....he's no more greedy than many on this board. I appreciate his game and dont hate on him for what he isn't. His time here may be coming to an end but I absolutely positively will NOT hate him. He's been too good for too long and I appreciate his unique game and his good natured attitude. Some on here need to let the business part run its course and let Marion and management work it out for themsleves.

i tend to agree.
i think sometimes suns fans let marion's negative characteristics (on and off the court) mask his positives. yes he is overpaid, and yes he does not always play well when we need it. but he is a perfect fit for our system and a lot of the time has a very hard job to do night in and night out. You cant ask a guy to guard lebron, kobe, tmac, parker, etc (all future hall of fame contenders) and not expect him to ask for respect and money for doing so. obviously he is going to have his bad nights, and probably has too many of them for 17m a season but he is one hell of a player and his value to the suns and their system can not be matched by any other player not named steve nash.

 

[slinslin]

Bottom Line: We should have traded Marion a couple years ago already like a lot of people wanted to. We haven't done anything since and now we are in this situation.

 

[elindholm]

Bottom Line: We should have traded Marion a couple years ago already like a lot of people wanted to. We haven't done anything since and now we are in this situation.

True. It might have been a rosy ending after all if not for the suspensions, but that's water under the bridge now. The Suns have to figure out how to salvage what is left of Nash's championship window.

 

[pokerface]

Bottom Line: We should have traded Marion a couple years ago already like a lot of people wanted to. We haven't done anything since and now we are in this situation.

That I must agree with. We waited until the last minute now we're in the situation we dont want to be in.

 

[slinslin]

Btw I guess it will be best to keep him now if he wants it or not and then trade him at the 2008 draft for the highest pick and throw ins possible, like Ray Allen for #5 Wally and West.

If we don't win it all this year it is time to make some more significant changes anyway.

Maybe to Portland for their pick (they have enough young players anyway) and Raef Lafrentz. And Portland needs a SF. They are set at PG with Jack, Sergio, Koponen, they are set at SG with Roy and Webster, Aldridge and Frye at the 4 and Oden and Frye at the 5. But at the 3 they are down to James Jones and Travis Outlaw.

That way we could have a chance to get 2 of Mayo, Rose, Beasley, DeAndre Jordan, Nicholas Batum, Darrel Arthur etc whatever order they are projected at that point.

I guess we would have to extend Marion to do that, so that he can't opt out before the draft although that may be unlikely anyway, the Suns will know best.

 

[cly2tw]

Bottom Line: We should have traded Marion a couple years ago already like a lot of people wanted to. We haven't done anything since and now we are in this situation.

Wiser words have never been spoken, my friends!

 

[SunsTzu]

Someday they'll turn on Amare too...

There were quite a few that did last year before the season. I seem to recall you speaking out against him yourself.

 

[azirish]

Boston said they would give him 60 mill for 3 years?

I remember reports saying explicitly that Marion refused to agree to "reasonable" extension and it was that which led to claims that he killed the deal. No extension, then no deal.

 

[BC867]

Bottom Line: We should have traded Marion a couple years ago already like a lot of people wanted to. We haven't done anything since and now we are in this situation.

This is what I posted a year ago about Marion.

Early in his career, I used to see Shawn at the Yoshi's at 24th St. and Indian School regularly. Whenever the Suns had a home game, he would stop in for takeout.

His personality was like that of an eight year old child. Mumbling and embarassed to even have a one-on-one conversation in public.

I wondered if he had it in him to mature to a reasonable level as he gained experience.

I'm sure he's tried his best, but alas, he just doesn't have it in him.

That's life.

But the Marion apologists insisted he was good for the team and Suns' brass did nothing.

It was bound to hit the fan, and it has. And now we have to settle to get rid of him, rather than be in the driver's seat on a trade.

 

[azirish]

Have the Suns FO "done nothing" regarding Marion or have they been shopping him constantly for the last few years? I might criticize them for one or the other, but I'm not convinced they are guilty of both.