Greece just beat USA 101-95

[Cheesebeef]

wow - I do not get the Melo hate - the only reason this team even got as far aas it did was because Melo bailed their asses out. When you're shooting 58%, you're doing something right.

If everyone could stroke the J like Carmelo, we wouldn'thave gotten beaten by the Greeks.

 

[hafey]

I guess I fail to see how Anthony was being a ball hog. He scored 27 points on 9/15 shooting (FYI: thats 60%) and didn't turn the ball over. Doesn't seem like a ball hog to me, huh?

Just because someone scores alot of points, doesn't mean they're a ball hog.

 

[Chaplin]

How is anyone supposed to get into any rhythm? Wade, Melo and Lebron were really the only 3 guys that got consistent time. For some reason, Lebron chose not to be aggressive. But don't underestimate the importance of meaningful and consistent minutes for a team of individuals trying like hell to play as a more cohesive team unit, rather than the only star of their NBA team.

Carmelo shot well because he was the only one that was able to get into some kind of groove. Don't get me wrong, I think Carmelo is a very good player, he just reminds me of Kobe--maybe that's where the "Melo hate" is coming from.

 

[hafey]

Well I'm pretty sure carmelo wasn't making the substitutions last night. Like I said, this was not a talent loss but a coaching one. And frankly I don't think Carmelo was taking shots of the rhythm of the offense because the US had no offense.

 

[Russ Smith]

How is anyone supposed to get into any rhythm? Wade, Melo and Lebron were really the only 3 guys that got consistent time. For some reason, Lebron chose not to be aggressive. But don't underestimate the importance of meaningful and consistent minutes for a team of individuals trying like hell to play as a more cohesive team unit, rather than the only star of their NBA team.

Carmelo shot well because he was the only one that was able to get into some kind of groove. Don't get me wrong, I think Carmelo is a very good player, he just reminds me of Kobe--maybe that's where the "Melo hate" is coming from.

So doesn't he get credit for getting into that groove? Afterall he played about 2 MPG more than Wade or Bron. his game is simply better suited to international play.

I also think you're highly underestimating how much better the rest of the world is in 2006 compared to 92, a LOT has changed in 14 years.

If we really want to blame someone blame Sonny Vaccaro. If he wasn't destroying amateur ball with shoe camps and AAU ball, these kids would know how to play the game when they get to the NBA .

 

[phxrising]

We didn't need Defense back in 92

the "rest of the world" didn't even play against our 92 team, they were too busy gawking and posing for pictures.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Carmelo shot well because he was the only one that was able to get into some kind of groove. Don't get me wrong, I think Carmelo is a very good player, he just reminds me of Kobe--maybe that's where the "Melo hate" is coming from.

CArmelo shot better than Wade and Lebron because he's a better jump shooter tha Wade or LeBron. Same type of problems for this USA swquad as in year's past. No defense and no shooting. Kobe would've been huge for this team.

 

[Chaplin]

CArmelo shot better than Wade and Lebron because he's a better jump shooter tha Wade or LeBron. Same type of problems for this USA swquad as in year's past. No defense and no shooting. Kobe would've been huge for this team.

Definitely agree that Kobe would have been huge, but would he have been unselfish enough to play with the other players?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Definitely agree that Kobe would have been huge, but would he have been unselfish enough to play with the other players?

I think you could Kobe and Melo out there with pretty much anyone and we would kill anyone. Ball-hogs or not, both Melo and Kobe are pretty much the only guys who are a) skilled all around, passing, shooting, defense and b) assassins.

Kobe can defer when he's got guys to do defer to - we saw that for 3 titles when Kobe led the team in assts and let Shaq carry the scoring load - it was only when Shaq fell apart and then left that Kobe had to turn into MJ circa 1987 because he's got so little talent around him.

Make no mistake, Kobe would have been the difference on this team and the veteran leader/championship veteran it's sorely missing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

all that being said - while I would love Kobe for team USA, I hate Kobe Bryant, the NBA player.

 

[hafey]

I was about to post the same thing. There are few NBA players that can guard Carmelo and/or Kobe, but there are zero international players; they are too skilled. They can score from anywhere on the court.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was about to post the same thing. There are few NBA players that can guard Carmelo and/or Kobe, but there are zero international players; they are too skilled. They can score from anywhere on the court.

they're also probably the toughest/fiercest competitors/natural winners of all the Americans. I'd put probably put Wade up there with them as well. LBJ has all the tools, but he's still got some maturing to do to reach their level of tenacity IMO.

 

[Folster]

Wade has been pretty good in this tournament but it again illustrated that when they call travelling and don't give him FT's everytime he misses(like in the NBA) he's much more human. I think this will be good for him as he's having to learn fundamentals NBA refs don't make him learn. People keep saying LeBron is setting up teammates but frankly I think the reason Melo is outplaying him is he's a better shooter, and he's got better fundamentals, Melo has a jab step and Melo has a reliable first step move that's not a walk. Seems to me like LeBron has been reluctant to drive for the same reason Wade has, he's afraid to catch and then drive because he gets called for the walk.

I think if the US really wants to win these events they have to convince NBA refs to start calling the game closer to the international game so that our NBA players will be used to it.

Spot on, especially about the bail out calls.

 

[Ballamania]

this is what i see

1.i hate kobe and dont care for melo

2. melo has been the only consistent shooter and if not for him they would have lost about 2 games already.

3. he looks confident shooting while the other look uncomfortable.

4.when you shoot free throws like they did in the previous olympics, you will set youself of to lose.

5. they act like they never in life had seen a pick and roll(they got demolished on that). it looked like nash and amare in 04-05 season against the knicks or something.

6.coach K should be mostly to blame: they were unprepared, he didnt adjust, poor sub rotation, and they should have been playing some kind of zones at least sometimes.

7. those greeks ran the break reminiscent of the suns. it was crazy to see them get that rebound and the whole team take off like that immediatley.(running it down the throat!)

8. i think everyone on greece's team could shoot that three except for the fake shaq dude.

 

[Nash]

Was watching the replay of the USA Greece game and share what I recall of it:

commentators - guy1 and guy2

guy1 , about Greece: "They have a lot of long name players but no big name players"

about one of the Greek bigs:
guy1 : "he cannot jump over the Athens phone book"
That player played 9 mins and scored 8 pts at 60%

guy 1: "What's great about these men (US) is that they're not playing for what's on the back of their jerseys"

long awkward silence...

guy 2: "they are playing for whats on the front of their jerseys"
duh!

US runs a pic and roll early in the first qtr, commentator goes
"Greece can do nothing to the pick and roll run by the US. they are very slow on their feet and cannot match the US in such plays"
talk about irony!

LeBron and Wade got called for their offensive fouls, and rightly so

Bosh manhandled by the Greek post

Papaloukas - just signed 3 yr $17 mln deal - tax free with a Euro club

 

[King A]

quick question:
isn't ncaa ball also fiba rules?
so a lot of if not most players had played under those rules, so you could remember what it was like during that 1-4 span

 

[Russ Smith]

quick question:
isn't ncaa ball also fiba rules?
so a lot of if not most players had played under those rules, so you could remember what it was like during that 1-4 span

no the lane is different, they have offensive goaltending etc in college.

The main difference is that over the years US refs in college and the NBA have stopped calling travels, carries, and especially in the NBA got into this superstar call nonsense. Nobody in Japan cared that it was Lebron or Wade, if they walked, it was called, if they caused contact, they got the foul.

there was a clear attempt over the years to make the game more appealing through scoring and the result is our players are simply not used to playing the game under the real rules. Ironic considering "we" invented the game.

Go out on any playground in America and call palming or 3 seconds and you'll at best get laughed off the court.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, Carmelo put on a clinic, and we're now competing for the Bronze medal. Granted, some of this is my inherent dislike for Carmelo Anthony, but for a team that has been ingrained in the media as being a team-first squad, Carmelo's performance does not fit. Don't you think that's a big difference in this team and the one in '92?

I do question the coaching as well, not that Coach K isn't a great coach, but that he consistently was inconsistent in his lineups. One day Bosh would get time and tear it up, the next day he doesn't sniff the court. Same with Dwight Howard, Joe Johnson, Kirk Heinrich and it looks like, Elton Brand, who is our best frontcourt player. How do you explain that?

barkley could have been proclaimed a ballhog during the '92 olympics too. he was always the leading scorer and did little to set up his teammates. you're reaching due to your dislike for 'melo.

i'm not a big fan of 'melo either, but he showed up and was more aggressive than most of the us squad.

 

[Chaplin]

barkley could have been proclaimed a ballhog during the '92 olympics too. he was always the leading scorer and did little to set up his teammates. you're reaching due to your dislike for 'melo.

i'm not a big fan of 'melo either, but he showed up and was more aggressive than most of the us squad.

Can't I have an opinion? Why can't you say you disagree and leave it at that? I admit I probably am reaching, and I never once said that he sucked. All I said was that playing individually did not help the US team, regardless of whether or not he was solely responsible for wins.

 

[Folster]

no the lane is different, they have offensive goaltending etc in college.

The main difference is that over the years US refs in college and the NBA have stopped calling travels, carries, and especially in the NBA got into this superstar call nonsense. Nobody in Japan cared that it was Lebron or Wade, if they walked, it was called, if they caused contact, they got the foul.

there was a clear attempt over the years to make the game more appealing through scoring and the result is our players are simply not used to playing the game under the real rules. Ironic considering "we" invented the game.

Go out on any playground in America and call palming or 3 seconds and you'll at best get laughed off the court.

That's why I hate the AND 1 and streetball tapes. Streetball gets you nowhere in the international game. It's all traveling, carrying, and palming(circus tricks). I'm more impressed with a player that can shoot, and has good fundamentals.

Compare the way players dribbled in the 70's and prior compared to now. It's almost comical. They dribbled straight up and down while their hand never even touched the side or the underneath of the ball. The NBA refs need to start calling the game correctly.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Can't I have an opinion? Why can't you say you disagree and leave it at that? I admit I probably am reaching, and I never once said that he sucked. All I said was that playing individually did not help the US team, regardless of whether or not he was solely responsible for wins.

easy chap. you said something to the effect of 'melo's ballhogging could be the reason and that you didn't see that in '92 and i was pointing out that that really wasn't the case. no one worried about barkley's ballhogging b/c we were killing teams.

and yet again you put words into my mouth. never did i say you said 'melo sucked. i never even intimated that.

and yeah, you're welcome to your opinion, in fact, all i did was support that. YOU are the one that said that your thought was probably provoked by your dislike for 'melo . . . i just supported YOUR opinion.

 

[George O'Brien]

I wasn't public about it, but I was more concerned about Greece than either Spain or Argentina. Spain and Argentina tend to blend NBA athleticism with international style, while Greece is pure international style and very very efficient. Remember, it was Greece that won Eurobasket last year.

I think it is time to come to grips with the real problem. The NBA rules are so radically different than FIBA rules, that it is in a material sense a different game.

The most obvious difference between FIBA basketball and the NBA is that NBA rules are designed to liberate athletes to show off, while FIBA rules make it much harder on super athletes:

1. Pemits hand checking and lots of perimeter contact
2. Tight calling of palming and other tricks for getting a quick first step
3. Permits full zone with no defensive three second violations
4. Has no under the basket circle and calls charges on plays that would be called blocking fouls in the NBA
5. Has very liberal goal tending rules
6. The court is smaller

It is also hard on classic low post scorers:

1. Trapezoid lane pushes low post players away from the basket
2 There are no limits on using two hands to push guys out of the post
3. There are no defensive three second violations

When you add in a ball made of different material than the NBA ball, it really is a different game. I'm not sure enough is made of just how different the FIBA feels, but it seems that most of the NBA players are uncomfortable shooting it.

Put the Greeks on an NBA court, with NBA refs and NBA rules and the results would be dramatically different, even if USA can't defend the pick and roll.

 

[Lars the Red]

I think it is time to come to grips with the real problem. The NBA rules are so radically different than FIBA rules, that it is in a material sense a different game.

The most obvious difference between FIBA basketball and the NBA is that NBA rules are designed to liberate athletes to show off, while FIBA rules make it much harder on super athletes:

1. Pemits hand checking and lots of perimeter contact
2. Tight calling of palming and other tricks for getting a quick first step
3. Permits full zone with no defensive three second violations
4. Has no under the basket circle and calls charges on plays that would be called blocking fouls in the NBA
5. Has very liberal goal tending rules
6. The court is smaller

It is also hard on classic low post scorers:

1. Trapezoid lane pushes low post players away from the basket
2 There are no limits on using two hands to push guys out of the post
3. There are no defensive three second violations

When you add in a ball made of different material than the NBA ball, it really is a different game. I'm not sure enough is made of just how different the FIBA feels, but it seems that most of the NBA players are uncomfortable shooting it.

Put the Greeks on an NBA court, with NBA refs and NBA rules and the results would be dramatically different, even if USA can't defend the pick and roll.

George, several of your points completely contradict the way the game is supposed to be played according to the rules.

1. Pemits hand checking and lots of perimeter contact-No doubt this is the case, but the NBA was the one that decided to limit this contact only on the perimeter. The inside game is an absolute WWE event. The greater contact seems to reduce the constant dribbling and force teams to pass more. Not necessarily a bad thing.

2. Tight calling of palming and other tricks for getting a quick first step-Sorry, but palming is a violation. I've never really understood why, if someone is supposed to be this superstar, superior athlete, does he need to also be allowed to get 2 running steps or bring the ball from one side of his body to the other without having it hit the ground?

3. Permits full zone with no defensive three second violations-I never really understood why the NBA decided that using a 'zone-lite' rule was the answer. Ball movement and shooting kills any zone. Work on that and it's just another defense.

4. Has no under the basket circle and calls charges on plays that would be called blocking fouls in the NBA-It's all about body control and taking what defenses give you. For players like we have on our roster, who can start and stop on a dime, a drive and pullup should be more common place than the drive and slam.

5. Has very liberal goal tending rules-I didn't see a huge effect from this.

6. The court is smaller-This makes it harder to create space with ball handling, but doesn't effect it from a passing standpoint.

And on these:

1. Trapezoid lane pushes low post players away from the basket-I played international ball. This actually helps good offensive post players because you have more room to make a move. It's really nice to play in.

2 There are no limits on using two hands to push guys out of the post-The NBA lets you put an elbow through a guys kidney. Just because your palms aren't on someone, doesn't mean they aren't pushing. The other thing is this goes back to the trapezoid, the wider lane means more area to work in. You don't just camp on a block and wrestle.

3. There are no defensive three second violations-Again, I don't see the issue with this. 3 dribbles and a pullup accomplish the same thing as the drive to the hole.

As far as the ball being a different material goes, I guarantee everyone one of those guys on the US roster played with everything from a Walmart special, that got hard as a rock in cold weather, to an old leather ball missing half the panels. They've had ample opportunity to get used to the feel. This is just one more thing that makes these guys look like whiney, excuse makers.

You guys may remember that I love the international game. It's a really pure form a basketball that rewards players, team play, and fundementals. It doesn't care how gifted you are, the rules apply equally.

 

[sly fly]

I wasn't public about it, but I was more concerned about Greece than either Spain or Argentina. Spain and Argentina tend to blend NBA athleticism with international style, while Greece is pure international style and very very efficient. Remember, it was Greece that won Eurobasket last year.

I think it is time to come to grips with the real problem. The NBA rules are so radically different than FIBA rules, that it is in a material sense a different game.

The most obvious difference between FIBA basketball and the NBA is that NBA rules are designed to liberate athletes to show off, while FIBA rules make it much harder on super athletes:

1. Pemits hand checking and lots of perimeter contact
2. Tight calling of palming and other tricks for getting a quick first step
3. Permits full zone with no defensive three second violations
4. Has no under the basket circle and calls charges on plays that would be called blocking fouls in the NBA
5. Has very liberal goal tending rules
6. The court is smaller

It is also hard on classic low post scorers:

1. Trapezoid lane pushes low post players away from the basket
2 There are no limits on using two hands to push guys out of the post
3. There are no defensive three second violations

When you add in a ball made of different material than the NBA ball, it really is a different game. I'm not sure enough is made of just how different the FIBA feels, but it seems that most of the NBA players are uncomfortable shooting it.

Put the Greeks on an NBA court, with NBA refs and NBA rules and the results would be dramatically different, even if USA can't defend the pick and roll.

Or, the fact that the U.S. has no dominant big man that can command double-teams down low... or strike fear into the opposition on defense.

Having a big in the middle would have made up for the lack of help on the cutters.

Chris Bosh was a disappointment. Not sure if I think he's the "franchise-type" of player everybody keeps bringing up. Perhaps he's still maturing and will turn into that type of player.

Hats off to Greece. That was monumental.

Back to the drawing board for the U.S..

 

[George O'Brien]

There is no secret to beating the zone. You have to hit your jumps shots.

I don't know how much the FIBA ball effects the USA players, but the new NBA ball may help in preparing NBA players for the international basketball. At the same time, I have to wonder if coach K got caught up with playing his stars like LeBron and Wade rather than a guy like Battier who is a better three point shooter.