Greed, not a reason to trade a player

[Jetstream Green]

Warner
Boldin
Fitz
Dansby

soon...
Dockett
Wilson

later if they keep improving
Breaston
Rolle
DRC

All are going to want insanse money...What?...trade a player so we can draft another player who is more of a question mark by never proving it on the NFL field, who if they do turn out where they are finally a force and then let them go when they want all the money their greedy hands can get (and I do say greedy because millions on millions of dollars are not required to have a good life for you and your family and the fantasy of providing for your children's children is a fantasy no person in professional sports should think their contribution to society justifys such mentality...really)

We signed Fitz and Warner, and both where greedy

all professional athletes are greedy on every single team...Berry seems like the only player who showed some aspect of thinking of the team and he is an exception and who knows what he would ask for if he was younger

so I say no, we should not trade Dansby for acting like every other athlete out there, and if Boldin is important to the team...then we should not let him dictate the front office when he clearly cannot (he tried this year to cause a stink and we still went to the Super Bowl and the guy regardless of what he says always gave 100%, he does not know how to play any less when on the field) and keep him for Warner's tenure because like it or not he is under contract

 

[Jetstream Green]

so basically what I'm saying is that they are all greedy, like it or not, and if the Cardinals do not pay him a large amount...some other guy that will replace him will then want the same from a standpoint of greed. Play the agonizing contract game and even though like all the other players on all the other teams who always still end up getting more than they are worth, pay Dansby and get used to the fact players play for money and not the love of the game now. The love of the game falls to us fans

 

[joeshmo]

All are going to want insanse money...What?...trade a player so we can draft another player who is more of a question mark by never proving it on the NFL field, who if they do turn out where they are finally a force and then let them go when they want all the money their greedy hands can get

You just described the Pats, Pitt, and Philly strategy and most other teams who have been succesfull for so many years.

"You want more money then we are willing to give you, OK there's the door we already have a replacement or one in mind" Its a banner in the Patriots front office right when you walk in.

 

[Duckjake]

You just described the Pats, Pitt, and Philly strategy and most other teams who have been successful for so many years.

"You want more money then we are willing to give you, OK there's the door we already have a replacement or one in mind" Its a banner in the Patriots front office right when you walk in.

Here is the real key to the Patriots method for success:

Offensive line including TE 32 years combined with the Patriots.
Defensive line 19 years combined with the Patriots. (remember that is 3 guys)

 

[Crazy Canuck]

all professional athletes are greedy on every single team...Berry seems like the only player who showed some aspect of thinking of the team and he is an exception and who knows what he would ask for if he was younger

Berry simply made the decision to reduce his cap hit, knowing that he's be cut if he didn't. Let's not make it a virtue.

 

[CardinalChris]

You just described the Pats, Pitt, and Philly strategy and most other teams who have been succesfull for so many years.

"You want more money then we are willing to give you, OK there's the door we already have a replacement or one in mind" Its a banner in the Patriots front office right when you walk in.

They do pay thier star players. They do a much better job of identifying who thier star is and not letting them go until they have a cheaper replacement. The second part is that more times than not, they are right about that replacement player's ability to perform at the same level. That is something AZ has not shown me enough of to try and be like those teams. Although they are improving, thier drafting has not been on par with those teams either. We don't draft as well, develop talent as well, or retain talent as well as those front offices, so trying to act like those front offices and letting talent walk could be a disaster.

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

I need MILLIONS....

I would luv' to hear the answers these guys give to justify that statement. What do you do with that much $$?? Buy a fleet of cars?? Buy homes in several states?? Wear $1,000.00 suits?? Of course, we've created this scenario. We're the ones who fill the stadiums. We're the ones who discuss the pro's & cons of this years' team all season long. We ultimately pay for all this in the end. It just amazes me how someone with a straight face can say I can't make it on just a few million. I'd laugh at the absurdity of it all if it weren't so pathetic.

 

[CardinalChris]

I would luv' to hear the answers these guys give to justify that statement. What do you do with that much $$?? Buy a fleet of cars?? Buy homes in several states?? Wear $1,000.00 suits?? Of course, we've created this scenario. We're the ones who fill the stadiums. We're the ones who discuss the pro's & cons of this years' team all season long. We ultimately pay for all this in the end. It just amazes me how someone with a straight face can say I can't make it on just a few million. I'd laugh at the absurdity of it all if it weren't so pathetic.

I have never heard a player say they can't make it, just that they are worth it. And when you see another player making more but performing the same, they are correct. Theirs is a special talent, so they get paid like it.

If you make $30 an hour (and perform) in a profession that averages $60 an hour, would you ask for a raise?

 

[binkar]

I agree Jetstream Green, but only to a certain extent. We as fans often give players a hard time for trying to maximize their earnings when all of us are likely trying to do the same thing at work every day. You can't be angry with a player for wanting to get paid what their fair market value is. The difference with the Dansby situation though is that it seems to me like he isn't really wanting to see if something can be worked out with the Cardinals. If the Cardinals wanting to sit down and see if they can keep Dansby here for the long term and see if they can agree to something that Dansby is comfortable with, then what is his problem?

It seems like he is so infatuated with the opportunity of being a free agent that he doesn't want to even get into serious negotiations with the Cards. That is where the situation is different.

Warner, Wilson, Dockett, Fitz, and even Boldin (now) wanted money that they feel they have earned, but want to stick around. Dansby on the other hand just seems to want the most money he can get regardless of the where that is IMO.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I did not make Berry's actions a complete virtue, as I mentioned if he WAS YOUNGER with that production he would ask probably for more...he does not have that leverage at his age...so I did include that 'what if'

and just because all the athletes are basing their insane salaries as fair market value on every new outrageous contract signed does not make it fair market value...it simply is the market value but hardly fair for what they do but the blame also as mentioned falls on our society for paying these guys so much and not just the players

it is what it is, and unless I'm in Dansby mind...I do not think he is anymore against being a cardinal as a majority of the players already on the team or he would have a raised a rukus of being franchised, even if that means he is getting an average salary of the top players at the position...most players seem to treat the tag as a swipe against them by the front office and Dansby did not react that way

so

what he is thinking...I really don't know
what was Warner thinking...I still have no idea
what is Boldin's real position on his current situation...I don't think he even knows anymore

but I can almost safely say that money is probably the largest factor

 

[Crazy Canuck]

10 million guaranteed... 22 million guaranteed, blah-blah...

Q: Do athletes pay taxes in the USA?

(Just curious, because I know that up here 40/50% of the so-called guarantee, some are bitching about, is going to the tax man. Not to say that it isn't in the end a lot of money, but it is NOT tax free... at least not up here...

Further... there are those who scoff when a player mentions the financial security of his family when negotiating a new deal. It is not irrelevant, if sincere. My prospecter grandfather founded a gold, silver, copper mine 1-hundred years ago, and we are now entering a 4th generation who are benefiting from this legacy.

 

[Cardiac]

The NFL is a multi billion dollar industry. If the players don't get a fair share then the owners would make even more money then they already are.

Almost no one ever complains about what Ohpra Winfrey makes, or Brad Pitt, or Mick Jagger or Jerry Seinfeld or Tiger Woods............ Anyone successful in the "entertainment" industry makes crazy amounts of money. A majority of sports fans hold a grudge against players for getting their fair share. I understand this to a point as what Dansby gets affects the teams ability to field a competitive team. This is why so many of us get upset when a players negotiations drag on or turns ugly.

My basic point is that the vast majority of people given the opportunity to maximize their earnings do just that.

Flash back to last year at this time and many Cards fans so frustrated with Fitz and his contract situation. His play, character and work ethic has now made that contract look like a decent deal for all concerned.

 

[JeffGollin]

I credit my late Dad for imparting the wisdom that - in diplomacy, voter-sentiment, employment contracts or, for that matter, life - people will almost always act in their own enlightened self-interest. He used to say: "Don't try to figure out what's best for other people without first figuring out what's best for you - or you're going to feel very guilty and get very confused."

But he did leave wriggle room with the word "enlightened." It's a loaded term which suggests that some people are able to look at a longer range big picture (i.e. "Maybe if I accept a few-thousand dollars less, I'll be less likely to be laid off 2 or 3 years from now." "Maybe if I concede a point in negotiations now, I'll be able to cash in that chip later on to get something a whole lot bigger." "Even though I may not cash in fully on a deal, I'll know my customers will be happier and will be more likely to lend a hand should I stumble").

There are roughly 6 Cardinal veterans who are shooting for a big pay day, and you can't blame them. Some are operating on their own "unenlightened" self-interest. Others - like Fitz and Warner (who, for example, understand that having a happy Boldin on board makes them all better players) are more enlightened.

With this in mind, Karlos Dansby (who has every right to "go for the gold") ought to keep the following in mind: (1) If a deal is done and 2010 turns out not be an uncapped year, then what? (2) What happens to his bargaining position for 2010 if he gets injured or sucks in 2009? (3) What happens if the Cards somehow trade up for someone like Maleuluga or Laurinaits? What does that do for his bargaining position? (4) Isn't it a point of value to get paid a lot of money now so that you and your family know where they'll be living for the next 4 or 5 years instead of conceivably wandering from franchise city to city like gypsies? (5) How many million dollars will you need before "happiness" trumps money?

I hope Dansby, Dockett, A-Dub and Q think first and then act "enlightenly."

 

[Jetstream Green]

some good points Jeff

 

[joeshmo]

We don't draft as well, develop talent as well, or retain talent as well as those front offices, so trying to act like those front offices and letting talent walk could be a disaster.

They only pay their stars what they are willing to pay them and not a dime more. If the player wants more they move on.

As for the quote part, Neither did those front offices to begin with. But they trusted their philosophy and went with it, they had to start somewhere, and it started even before their first draft or before they even had time to develop talent.

 

[zuchini]

all professional athletes are greedy on every single team...Berry seems like the only player who showed some aspect of thinking of the team and he is an exception and who knows what he would ask for if he was younger

Berry simply made the decision to reduce his cap hit, knowing that he's be cut if he didn't. Let's not make it a virtue.

Oh, but it is a virtue. Honesty to one's self.

 

[CardinalChris]

They only pay their stars what they are willing to pay them and not a dime more. If the player wants more they move on.

As for the quote part, Neither did those front offices to begin with. But they trusted their philosophy and went with it, they had to start somewhere, and it started even before their first draft or before they even had time to develop talent.

OK, then we will travel down that idea. We have two large issues. Let's assume we are speaking of Dansby, since that is really what the thread is about. 1) management and many fans see Dansby as one of the pillars of this defense, most likely the second best player on that side of the ball. So why not make him an offer like he is? By all accounts the contract was not in line with the going market rate. 2) And this is the most important. Who is his possible replacements again? We want to play the Pat/Philly/Pittsburgh game, but if it were as easy as those teams make it seem, there would be more than three of them. As of right now this tactic won't work because we have no depth or replacement. Ali Highsmith is a bad day away from starting for us. I'd love to draft a replacement, but there are some serious holes that mean more and depth issues.

And I am not sure how many "take it or leave" it meetings those three teams have. Most news Items I see on those teams is not negative to their stars and paying them. Wasn't Big Ben just the 4th 100 million dollar player ever. Of course they negotiate with players. I bet a majority of those perceived as "take it or leave it" is actually the player taking a little less to stay with a great organization.

So yes, it sounds great. But slightly overpaying for a player who is in his prime is fine if you are a team about to turn the corner. The truth is by the back end of the majority of these contracts they end up being on par or less than market value.

 

[Jetstream Green]

and a lot of these teams like the Pats who play hardball are allowed to do so because they have a more highprofile image than the Cardinals whether it is Superbowl wins or the positive image they have to belong to that team being in a big market that they have generated by wins or location...so signing some players is not as hard as it would be for a team like the Cardinals. I think the Dansby's and Boldins are worth overpaying if it means the team can have more successful seasons in the near future where the Cardinals can have an image that allows them to act as the more successful teams with a winning image.

 

[Jetstream Green]

and a winning/popular image with NFL players allows them to find replacement easier when they choose not to pay existing players to mega contracts

 

[Stout]

OK, then we will travel down that idea. We have two large issues. Let's assume we are speaking of Dansby, since that is really what the thread is about. 1) management and many fans see Dansby as one of the pillars of this defense, most likely the second best player on that side of the ball. So why not make him an offer like he is? By all accounts the contract was not in line with the going market rate. 2) And this is the most important. Who is his possible replacements again? We want to play the Pat/Philly/Pittsburgh game, but if it were as easy as those teams make it seem, there would be more than three of them. As of right now this tactic won't work because we have no depth or replacement. Ali Highsmith is a bad day away from starting for us. I'd love to draft a replacement, but there are some serious holes that mean more and depth issues.

And I am not sure how many "take it or leave" it meetings those three teams have. Most news Items I see on those teams is not negative to their stars and paying them. Wasn't Big Ben just the 4th 100 million dollar player ever. Of course they negotiate with players. I bet a majority of those perceived as "take it or leave it" is actually the player taking a little less to stay with a great organization.

So yes, it sounds great. But slightly overpaying for a player who is in his prime is fine if you are a team about to turn the corner. The truth is by the back end of the majority of these contracts they end up being on par or less than market value.

Whoa, by NO accounts, you mean!!! I haven't read a single word saying that our offered deal was underbidding. That just hasn't been reported, that I've seen.

 

[john h]

Warner
Boldin
Fitz
Dansby

soon...
Dockett
Wilson

later if they keep improving
Breaston
Rolle
DRC

All are going to want insane money...What?...trade a player so we can draft another player who is more of a question mark by never proving it on the NFL field, who if they do turn out where they are finally a force and then let them go when they want all the money their greedy hands can get (and I do say greedy because millions on millions of dollars are not required to have a good life for you and your family and the fantasy of providing for your children's children is a fantasy no person in professional sports should think their contribution to society justifies such mentality...really)

We signed Fitz and Warner, and both where greedy

all professional athletes are greedy on every single team...Berry seems like the only player who showed some aspect of thinking of the team and he is an exception and who knows what he would ask for if he was younger

so I say no, we should not trade Dansby for acting like every other athlete out there, and if Boldin is important to the team...then we should not let him dictate the front office when he clearly cannot (he tried this year to cause a stink and we still went to the Super Bowl and the guy regardless of what he says always gave 100%, he does not know how to play any less when on the field) and keep him for Warner's tenure because like it or not he is under contract

I am not sure I would call all high paid athletes "Greedy". There is probably a better choice of words. Is Bill Gates greedy? Was Sam Walton Greedy? Both used there skills to accumulate wealth beyond our wildest dreams and both gave hundreds of millions of dollars to charities. Bill Gates still does. We have no idea of how much money Kurt Warner and his wife actually give away. He did not need to play football this year. He did not need the money and I seriously doubt he came back for money at age 37 and for another year of punishment at QB. Many of these athletes careers end in 3-4 years. I have read the average RB last only 4 years in the NFL. Playing football you better make all you can while you can because on any play you may be making your last play. Sure some of these guys are greedy. Not all. A guy who wants to be the highest paid player in the NFL at his position has set himself up to be called greedy. How about the CEO who came out of retirement to run AIG for $1.00 a year? He was abused by Barney Frank and his committee like he had personally run the company into the ground when he had only been on the job for a few months. I would have quit on the spot before I would let Barney Frank talk to me like he did to the CEO. For that he gets $1.00 a year? You got to be careful when throwing the word greedy around. It has come to have an evil connotation to it. Is Bill Bidwill greedy?

 

[Skkorpion]

How much to pay to whom does not ever concern me since the only vote I get is an indirect one. I either buy my ticket or I don't.

Does Karlos Dansby logically evaluate his options? If so, is he delusional? What factors matter most to him? We'll never know most of those answers, regardless of his eventual employment next year.

All we'll know is the answer to "did he stay or did he leave."

As to the title of this thread -- Greed, not a reason to trade a player -- what utter bunkum! There are many good reasons to trade players, greed among them. The player's greed or the team's greed.

All that matters is how the team performs, not how or why the various players ended up on the 53 man roster.

 

[Jetstream Green]

sorry, but it has gotten to the point that trading on the basis of greed makes no sense, it is not utter bunkum because these athletes are all greedy. And please can we stop with this whole rich guys giving money to charity to justify their greed because I doubt someone like Gate's contributions even add up to less than 1% of what the guy is worth.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

sorry Skkorp but it has gotten to the point that trading on the basis of greed makes no sense, it is not utter bunkum because these athletes are all greedy. And please can we stop with this whole rich guys giving money to charity to justify their greed because I doubt someone like Gate's contributions even add up to less than 1% of what the guy is worth.

One person's greed is another person's "fair market value", and no party is required to negotiate against their best interests.

Greed is a sin, no doubt... and so is jealousy.

(If Bill Gates didn't dedicate a penny to charity, he would still remain a tremendous benefactor to his fellow man/woman.)