Green should swallow pride and accept part of the blame

azdad1978

Championship!!!!
Joined
Dec 8, 2002
Posts
14,982
Reaction score
50
Location
ordinance 2257
Sept. 28, 2004 12:00 AM

Let's talk about who really dropped the ball Sunday.

Was it quarterback Josh McCown, whose three fumbles cost the Cardinals in a 6-3 loss to Atlanta?



Or was it coach Dennis Green, whose pride seems to interfere with the team's ability to improve the offensive line?

The line of accountability forms to the left, gentlemen. Sunday's loss was a group effort, and it has become clear by the look on Green's face that he didn't realize the depth of repairs needed in this extreme makeover.

The team has shifted from perspiration to desperation mode, folks.

Warning sign 1: Green trumpets the hiring of offensive consultant Carl Hargrave, a defensive coordinator from an NAIA school who never has been an NFL coordinator.

Warning sign 2: Green takes over play calling in the Falcons game.

Suddenly, with New Orleans on the horizon, the Cardinals are in danger of starting 0-4 for the first time in 18 years.

This is foreign territory for Green, too. He hasn't started 0-3 as a head coach since 1984, when he was trying to pump life into a floundering Northwestern program. It can't be easy for a man who rebuilt Stanford in three years and suffered only one losing season with Minnesota in 10 tries. In his debut with the Vikings, he went 4-0 in the preseason and then 11-5 with a playoff invitation.

"You make it seem like it's easy to go 9-7," he said.

No.

"Good, because that success on 9-7 seasons is very tough. It really is."

Fair enough, because Green worked hard to excel in the NFL, where he managed eight playoff trips with Minnesota. But success often breeds a sense of infallibility, and the fear here is that Green's pride could interfere with sound judgment, such as acknowledging he has made questionable decisions regarding the offensive line.

L.J. Shelton was on the field only in special-teams situations Sunday even though Green suggested earlier in the week that he might play more. Did Green consider using him on the line?

"Yeah, we did. I think but, we didn't and, you know, I think that, you know (we) . . . considered it," he said.

Ohhhh-kaaay.

Yes, the dismissal of Pete Kendall is a tired subject, but it's hard to ignore when Jets running back Curtis Martin says in the New York papers that Kendall, starting for the Jets at left guard, is "one of the best acquisitions this year" and that "he gives the line a swagger."

Sure, McCown shouldn't have fumbled, but a porous offensive line and a tight end, Freddie Jones, who doesn't always seem to take pride in his blocking, didn't help McCown's cause.

Credit Green with using Monday's news conference to clarify that McCown is still his quarterback. No one can fault the coach for pulling the third-year player Sunday or for sticking with him.

McCown, meanwhile, said he feels bad because "what should be talked about (is the defense shutting down Michael Vick) but instead we're talking about my fumbles and the quarterback change. That's the stuff that bothers me. That's the stuff that hurts me."

It is a shame. Because there were highlights, from the defense's stand to McCown's 13 consecutive passes to the efforts of receivers Bryant Johnson and Karl Williams.

But they're easy to overlook when the team is 0-3, and they will continue to be overlooked until the team starts winning.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/0927boivin0928.html
 

Duckjake

LEGACY MEMBER
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Posts
32,190
Reaction score
317
Location
Texas
Josh McCown,Karl Williams,Bryant Johnson,Obafemi Ayanbadejo,Cameron Spikes,Reggie Wells,Anthony Clement,an old Emmit Smith, and rookies Alex Stepanovich and Larry Fitzgerald. There's a bunch of players who strike fear into defensive coordinators league wide.

And people wonder why the offense is struggling.

They couldn't score last year with LJ Shelton and Pete Kendall along with Pro Bowl WR Anquan Boldin and Marcel Shipp and a veteran QB(hah). So why do people think they would be any better if the former two were still in the lineup?

If Green has made a mistake regarding the offense it was in letting people believe that he could fix it right away not in shaking up an offensive line that was just as bad, if not worse, last year.
 
Last edited:

red desert

ASFN Addict
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Posts
6,221
Reaction score
0
Location
A.B.Q. in da house
No way to get around it -- Green is partly to blame for our offense's lack of success. Some of those not finding any fault with Green are starting to sound like Mac apologists.
 

jmr667

Random Poster
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
481
Reaction score
0
Location
Chandler, AZ
azdad1978 said:
Sept. 28, 2004 12:00 AM

McCown, meanwhile, said he feels bad because "what should be talked about (is the defense shutting down Michael Vick) but instead we're talking about my fumbles and the quarterback change. That's the stuff that bothers me. That's the stuff that hurts me."

It is a shame. Because there were highlights, from the defense's stand to McCown's 13 consecutive passes to the efforts of receivers Bryant Johnson and Karl Williams.


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/0927boivin0928.html

So why not write about the defense shutting down Vick? Hmmmm? So much easier to bash Green than learn how to spell the D-coordinator's last name I suppose. Being as its a sports editorialist in Phoenix I really doubt they even know what the guy's name is.
I rate this column 3 lost lunches on the floor: :barf: :barf: :barf:
 
Last edited:

Duckjake

LEGACY MEMBER
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Posts
32,190
Reaction score
317
Location
Texas
red desert said:
No way to get around it -- Green is partly to blame for our offense's lack of success. Some of those not finding any fault with Green are starting to sound like Mac apologists.

What mistakes do you think Green has made in regards to the offense?

And I think there is a big difference between still being a homer for a coach after 32 losses in 3 years and cutting a guy some slack after only 3 games.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
88,286
Reaction score
39,917
Duckjake said:
What mistakes do you think Green has made in regards to the offense?

And I think there is a big difference between still being a homer for a coach after 32 losses in 3 years and cutting a guy some slack after only 3 games.

1) He messed up the OL, not that it was good before, but he has made it worse than it HAS to be. And the argument that longterm he'll fix it is irrelevant to me because AC isn't part of that longterm and neither is Spikes, and apparently to him at least neither is LJ. Green keeps glossing over the problems Step is having as either youth or inexperience, we had 2 experienced Centers on the team, he cut them both, he can't use that as an excuse now it's simply duplicitous.

2) green committed to josh, even Green is openly admitting he's not running the offense the way it's meant to be run. Green either has to get Josh to fix it, or put someone else in there. This is Green's QB, he chose to cut Blake, cut Parsons, keep Josh, sign King and draft Navarre, all 3 QB's are his personal choice, again he can't claim inexperience because he created the situation. NO problem with Parsons gone, understand why he cut Blake, but in the end you can't complain about the depth of a hole you dug.

3) playcalling. If Wood is calling plays poorly, and he's Green's choice for OC, again it's on Green. If Green takes over the playcalling, and we're dink and dunk downfield, either the playcalling stinks, or it's good but his QB just screwed it up with mistakes. Frankly we could have had 28 points Sunday so I'm not convinced the calls were all bad, I just think the QB messed it up with 3 fumbles, and Williams with a 4th. but Green does keep putting Josh into positions where his penchant for mistakes is going to crop up, that's on him to either eliminate those situations, or replace Josh.

4) Playmakers, we have one on the roster and he's recovering from knee surgery. Green chose to keep Smith as his starter and not pursue a breakaway RB. Green chose to take Fitz over a better athlete(Roy), a young QB (Ben) or an impact defensive player(Sean taylor). The fact that people keep saying Josh can't make plays because there are no playmakers is partly on Green because so far his first pick isn't making plays. He's going to be good, and with a better QB he'll be a huge redzone asset, but again Green picked him, if he's not good enough now, that's partly on Green.


Overall I think on the field Green is doing a terrific job, his defensive choices have paid huge dividends, his draft largely looks great. The team is clearly headed in the right path. But the fact that we're 0-3 is directly related to offensive decisions he's made that haven't panned out yet.
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
69,480
Reaction score
40,104
Location
Las Vegas
jmr667 said:
So why not write about the defense shutting down Vick? Hmmmm? So much easier to bash Green than learn how to spell the D-coordinator's last name I suppose. Being as its a sports editorialist in Phoenix I really doubt they even know what the guy's name is.
I rate this column 3 lost lunches on the floor: :barf: :barf: :barf:


Why exactly should they only report on the good? :rolleyes:
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
69,480
Reaction score
40,104
Location
Las Vegas
Russ Smith said:
1) He messed up the OL, not that it was good before, but he has made it worse than it HAS to be. And the argument that longterm he'll fix it is irrelevant to me because AC isn't part of that longterm and neither is Spikes, and apparently to him at least neither is LJ. Green keeps glossing over the problems Step is having as either youth or inexperience, we had 2 experienced Centers on the team, he cut them both, he can't use that as an excuse now it's simply duplicitous.

2) green committed to josh, even Green is openly admitting he's not running the offense the way it's meant to be run. Green either has to get Josh to fix it, or put someone else in there. This is Green's QB, he chose to cut Blake, cut Parsons, keep Josh, sign King and draft Navarre, all 3 QB's are his personal choice, again he can't claim inexperience because he created the situation. NO problem with Parsons gone, understand why he cut Blake, but in the end you can't complain about the depth of a hole you dug.

3) playcalling. If Wood is calling plays poorly, and he's Green's choice for OC, again it's on Green. If Green takes over the playcalling, and we're dink and dunk downfield, either the playcalling stinks, or it's good but his QB just screwed it up with mistakes. Frankly we could have had 28 points Sunday so I'm not convinced the calls were all bad, I just think the QB messed it up with 3 fumbles, and Williams with a 4th. but Green does keep putting Josh into positions where his penchant for mistakes is going to crop up, that's on him to either eliminate those situations, or replace Josh.

4) Playmakers, we have one on the roster and he's recovering from knee surgery. Green chose to keep Smith as his starter and not pursue a breakaway RB. Green chose to take Fitz over a better athlete(Roy), a young QB (Ben) or an impact defensive player(Sean taylor). The fact that people keep saying Josh can't make plays because there are no playmakers is partly on Green because so far his first pick isn't making plays. He's going to be good, and with a better QB he'll be a huge redzone asset, but again Green picked him, if he's not good enough now, that's partly on Green.


Overall I think on the field Green is doing a terrific job, his defensive choices have paid huge dividends, his draft largely looks great. The team is clearly headed in the right path. But the fact that we're 0-3 is directly related to offensive decisions he's made that haven't panned out yet.

Excellent post Russ!

Although everything you said above is directly related to what happens on the field. So I dunno if you can say hes doing a great job.
 

seesred

Registered User
Joined
Jul 15, 2002
Posts
5,364
Reaction score
28
Location
section 8 row 10
GREEN HAS been the coach for 3 Games! Blame for what ? He is pro actively trying to fix a problem he did not create. If Keary is elected you would want him to take fault for Iraq after 3 days and no fix in sight. Things take time. It is amazing :rolleyes: that our D is playing like they are. You want him to hold some of the blame when he is trying to repair , I don;t think so.

If you take over a new job from someone who failed badly would you take responsability for trying to straighten out the situation, or would you just keep moving on and trust the instincts and knowledge that gets you there. Green believes in his system. Why? Because it flat out works.

GBR
40
 

Card Trader

ASFN Lifer
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
3,173
Reaction score
0
Location
Chandler, AZ
Shane H said:
Why exactly should they only report on the good? :rolleyes:

There is a big difference between "only" and "rarely/never"....is it really that hard to distinguish between the two?
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
69,480
Reaction score
40,104
Location
Las Vegas
Card Trader said:
There is a big difference between "only" and "rarely/never"....is it really that hard to distinguish between the two?

I have read a few articles this week that reported on how well the D played. So I see no problem with the mix of good and bad press? Am I missing something?
 

Duckjake

LEGACY MEMBER
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Posts
32,190
Reaction score
317
Location
Texas
Russ, I can't agree with #1 as I don't believe the offensive line would be any better, based on what I saw last year, if they kept the same 5 guys in the same positions. But since we can't prove it either way we'll just have to disagree.

As for #3 I haven't seen any real disasterous play calling like we saw last year from Sullivan. There have been some great calls and some losers like with most NFL teams. Though I haven't seen anything like the stuff the master playcaller, John Mackovic, used to pull. For all his faults that guy could come up with some great plays.

On #2 I think that about halfway through the New England game McCown lost his cool. He became gunshy or shellshocked, whichever you prefer, and started to panic under pressure. It carried over to the Falcons game. I'm with Cheesebeef on McCown. One more half of fear and he needs to be gone. He has the raw skills but I don't think the fear factor can be easily fixed. Green has to see it and play someone else otherwise he is at fault.

#4 I totally agree. The only way Green gets off the hook on this is if his hands were tied by management when it came to getting more expensive free agents after signing Berry. I do like the bargain guys he's brought in. Macklin and Zellner have played well and it sure was nice to see a Cardinal RB actually make a first down by running over people in short yardage Sunday.
 

john h

Registered User
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
10,552
Reaction score
13
Location
Little Rock
jmr667 said:
So why not write about the defense shutting down Vick? Hmmmm? So much easier to bash Green than learn how to spell the D-coordinator's last name I suppose. Being as its a sports editorialist in Phoenix I really doubt they even know what the guy's name is.
I rate this column 3 lost lunches on the floor: :barf: :barf: :barf:

I do not care if we shut Vick down or not. We lost and that is the measure that counts.
 

Lex

troublemaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Posts
2,465
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale and one-eleven
And another Phoenix area sports writer checks in with a Pete Kendall love letter.

Pathetic.

I believe every sports writer in town has now brought up Pete Kendall as the REASON we're 0-3.

Of course, Pete ISN'T playing center, he's playing gaurd NEXT TO a REAL center, an all pro. I think it's great that Pete got one of his new team mates to mention him in the paper ... cool.

Pete Kendall did NOTHING for us, at center. He did NOTHING for us at gaurd. He never even PLAYED for us, once we were eliminated from playoff contention each year.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
It's hard to dispute the content of Boivin's article, but I did think the headline was a bit over the top.

Sidebar - Rumors out of NYC that Kendall may shift back to center to replace an injured starter.
 

CardsRep03

Registered
Joined
Apr 5, 2003
Posts
454
Reaction score
0
Location
granite city
Shane H said:
Why exactly should they only report on the good? :rolleyes:


Because all they've had to report on is bad from the Cardinals. It's actually out of the ordinary to for them to do something good in a game. To only focus on the negative or bury it down in an article does no good to the casual fan. They wouldn't expect something positive so it should be reported a little more vigorously.

Everyone and their brother was writing the story well before the game on how Vick was going to completely demolish the Cards defense. After the game if you read the stats on the game and you see: Vick; 5 sacks, 1 interception, 109 passing yards, 68 yards rushing...against the Cardinals!!!! A good reporter should say hmmmmm what happened here? Let me check that out. And then to find out he was held to 10 yards rushing with 2 minutes left in the game, really, is big news. Or to us Cards fans it should be.

Couple that with the fact of 5 sacks by the Cardinals. THAT is BIG news! Well it should be if you want to report on the game. The way it ACTUALLY happened not the way you thought it was going to happen. Hey even us Cardinals fans are quick to admit we got crushed on a given Sunday. Shouldn't others be just as quick to point out something that we did good? It's just SO hard for outsiders to report that we actually had a good game. (I'm not saying that as a whole it was a good game just on defense) This team is improving on defense and regressing on offense. What's so hard about saying that?
 

Red Hawk

JUST WIN!
Joined
Sep 13, 2002
Posts
1,911
Reaction score
0
Location
Buckeye, AZ / Section 106
Green has even more responsiblity for the Atlanta game.

Calling the shots
Green now in charge of offense

Kent Somers
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 28, 2004 12:00 AM

Dennis Green's efforts to inject some life into his offense didn't end last week with the hiring of a consultant. The Cardinals coach also took over the play calling in Sunday's 6-3 loss to Atlanta.

Offensive coordinator Alex Wood called plays throughout the preseason and the first two games of the regular season. But Green was displeased with the lack of production and decided it was time to show, and not just tell, those around him what he wanted.

"Sometimes as a head coach you can only explain things so many times," he said.

The results, however, weren't any better. The Cardinals gained just 240 yards, yielded six sacks, didn't score a touchdown and committed four turnovers. Green benched quarterback Josh McCown but made it clear Monday that McCown was still his starter.

Over the previous two weeks, Green blamed part of the team's offensive problems on a new coaching staff. Wood, ironically, was the only member of the staff who had previously worked with Green. He was Minnesota's quarterbacks coach for four years under Green.

Wood's role was diminished last week, however, when Green hired Carl Hargrave, also a former assistant of his in Minnesota, as an offensive consultant.

Hargrave played a prominent role in practices last week, according to two people with knowledge of the workouts. Reporters are allowed to watch only the first 30 minutes of practice, which consists mostly of stretching and warm-ups.

Against Atlanta, Wood was in the coaches booth, communicating with Green and other offensive assistants.

Green traditionally has let his offensive coordinators call plays, preferring to concentrate on managing the entire game. He'll soon return the play-calling duties to Wood, although he didn't say when.

"It's not something I would like to be a weekly role," Green said. "I've always been much more into the circumstances of the game and not the direct play calling."

This is Wood's first season as an offensive coordinator in the NFL, although he has considerable experience. In addition to his stint in Minnesota, he coached receivers last year with the Cincinnati Bengals and was the head coach at James Madison University from 1995 through 1998.

Green's decision to call plays was consistent with the changes made last week, most notably the hiring of Hargrave, he said.

"It kind of fell into the line of last week," Green said, "trying to get everyone to understand how it will go, this is kind of how our flow should go, this is how our rhythm should go, and this should be our tempo and how quick the play should come in.

"I thought it went OK. We didn't score. We missed a lot of scoring opportunities."

It appears Green has made his second addition to the staff in as many weeks. Everett Lindsay, a 10-year NFL veteran cut by the Cardinals in training camp, apparently has been hired as an offensive line assistant.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2002
Posts
13,304
Reaction score
1,181
Location
SE Valley
Calling the shots
Green now in charge of offense

Kent Somers
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 28, 2004 12:00 AM


It appears Green has made his second addition to the staff in as many weeks. Everett Lindsay, a 10-year NFL veteran cut by the Cardinals in training camp, apparently has been hired as an offensive line assistant.

Thank God! I read in the paper this morning that Lindsay was seen at Cardinals training facilities. I thought DG had lost it and was going to bring back Lindsay instead of playing Shelton! :hairraise
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
88,286
Reaction score
39,917
seesred said:
GREEN HAS been the coach for 3 Games! Blame for what ? He is pro actively trying to fix a problem he did not create. If Keary is elected you would want him to take fault for Iraq after 3 days and no fix in sight. Things take time. It is amazing :rolleyes: that our D is playing like they are. You want him to hold some of the blame when he is trying to repair , I don;t think so.

40

Green is an OFFENSIVE coach, he took over a team that most felt was worse on defense than offense, and yet after those same 3 games people are talking about how awesome the defense is, and how it will get better. Why was Green able to fix that, but not the offense?

Simple the guys he picked tohelp on defense, Dansby, Dockett, Berry, even Zellner sunday have all contributed. The guys he picked to help the offense, Fitz, Josh, Emmitt, Step et al have not.
 

SECTION 11

vibraslap
Joined
Oct 11, 2002
Posts
16,388
Reaction score
4,868
Location
Between the Pipes
Russ Smith said:
Green is an OFFENSIVE coach, he took over a team that most felt was worse on defense than offense, and yet after those same 3 games people are talking about how awesome the defense is, and how it will get better. Why was Green able to fix that, but not the offense?

Simple the guys he picked tohelp on defense, Dansby, Dockett, Berry, even Zellner sunday have all contributed. The guys he picked to help the offense, Fitz, Josh, Emmitt, Step et al have not.
But I like his chances on fixing the offense as opposed to the defense.
As you said before, this team could get good in a hurry if the defense keeps up it's play.
 

spanky1

Registered User
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Posts
4,713
Reaction score
0
Location
Charlotte NC
Russ Smith said:
Green is an OFFENSIVE coach, he took over a team that most felt was worse on defense than offense, and yet after those same 3 games people are talking about how awesome the defense is, and how it will get better. Why was Green able to fix that, but not the offense?

Simple the guys he picked tohelp on defense, Dansby, Dockett, Berry, even Zellner sunday have all contributed. The guys he picked to help the offense, Fitz, Josh, Emmitt, Step et al have not.

Don't forget Macklin and Ohalete.......Macklin is MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, the best value CB that changed teams in FA.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
88,286
Reaction score
39,917
Lex said:
And another Phoenix area sports writer checks in with a Pete Kendall love letter.

Pathetic.

I believe every sports writer in town has now brought up Pete Kendall as the REASON we're 0-3.

Of course, Pete ISN'T playing center, he's playing gaurd NEXT TO a REAL center, an all pro. I think it's great that Pete got one of his new team mates to mention him in the paper ... cool.

Pete Kendall did NOTHING for us, at center. He did NOTHING for us at gaurd. He never even PLAYED for us, once we were eliminated from playoff contention each year.

Mawae was injured, not sure if he's playing of late or not. Last week I saw several big runs to Pete's side by martin, the announcers made a point of showing how he's got the speed to get out and pull that they didn't have before.

Given how bad Spikes has been, and how great Step is per many, surely Green could have moved Kendall to LG, Step to C, Wells to RG and Shelton to RT and been done with it?

I know why he cut Pete, i'm fine with it, but doing so has weakened us at C, even Pasch and Mistler have said it in all 3 games, the line calls and interior blocking is noticeably lacking from Step. The fact that he's young and learning merely proves he wasn't ready to get the job. I think even Garcia would have been more prepared.
 

BigStick

Newbie
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Posts
7
Reaction score
0
Russ Smith said:
Green is an OFFENSIVE coach, he took over a team that most felt was worse on defense than offense, and yet after those same 3 games people are talking about how awesome the defense is, and how it will get better. Why was Green able to fix that, but not the offense?

Simple the guys he picked tohelp on defense, Dansby, Dockett, Berry, even Zellner sunday have all contributed. The guys he picked to help the offense, Fitz, Josh, Emmitt, Step et al have not.
Not so simple, everyone was high on the Offense because it had an all-pro wide wr, and an up and coming rb and add to that a top 3 pick in Fitz. There may be more reasons the offense is not clicking but to be sure the Shelton rehab over the off season and the loss of Boldin and Shipp have to be the major problem that has faced this offense. That would be my analysis of why the offense has not been fixed. Fitz has contributed. To say Josh has not contributed to at least part of the offenses success is telling only half truths. I think the major blame for the offense is the Coaching desicions on the field. The play calling has been terrible but without all the weapons it might not make much difference.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
556,540
Posts
5,436,598
Members
6,330
Latest member
Trainwreck20
Top